SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:44 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:I don't think Father and Son Bejiita, or even Nappa, were considered "standard" power levels.
But that's what the manga implies.
They are considered elites...
Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:Even so, I really hate the Daizenshuu; it's all contradicted by Bejiita, who wasn't pure of heart, not even "pure evil", by Goten and Trunks...
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The Daizenshuu say in this case what the manga says. Vegeta said in the manga that he transformed because he was pure evil, so maybe he really was pure evil, until he learned that Trunks was his son, he started having feelings for Bulma, and started considering Earth his home.
The Daizenshuu's aren't 100% reliable so it can be ignored. For the most part its legit though.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:50 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:I don't think Father and Son Bejiita, or even Nappa, were considered "standard" power levels.
But that's what the manga implies.
They are considered elites...
So, what? Goku at 90.000 surpassed the Saiyan limits, not the limits of the Low-class.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:The Daizenshuu's aren't 100% reliable so it can be ignored. For the most part its legit though.
They are legit in this case.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Fox666 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:57 pm

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:00 pm

I guess Goten & Trunks are exceptions for the conditions, since they were stated to have the ability to become Super Saiyan because they belong to the tailless generation of the Halflings.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:06 pm

I just had a thought, going back to the Vegeta not transforming into a SS4 while possessed by Baby thing. I seem to remember that when Baby first possessed Trunks before he went to Earth, the reason it seemed to fail was because Trunks went Super Saiyan AFTER possessing him. Then when Baby went to Earth and started to possess the Saiyans one by one, he seemed to always wait to infiltrate their bodies until they were at their max power (he even said as much in the dub, can't remember if he did in the sub). So maybe it really was Baby legitimately holding back Vegeta's body from the inside, because if Vegeta got too much stronger, he'd lose his hold over him?
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Bussani » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:09 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'm basing this off of Cell supercharging the sun with enough energy to go Supernova. A Supernova would spread that far.
That didn't answer my question. I'm curious about where the idea that a supernova would only extend to Mars comes from. Do you have a source for that? Heck, the radiation alone would reduce planets like Jupiter and Saturn to their cores. Even a supernova less than thirty lightyears away could potentially do the same to Earth.

More importantly, though, blowing up a Sun doesn't mean supercharging it with enough energy to go supernova. Cell just has to blow it up, and the more energy he uses, the faster and farther the Sun's matter would travel.
Plus the entire Solar System is more than 2 light years across.
I think you're getting that number from how far the solar system's influence extends, but what we normally think of as the solar system (i.e. the Sun and the planets) doesn't extend anywhere near that far. If we were to call Pluto the edge of the solar system (which isn't really accurate, especially these days, but it's good enough for our purposes here), then the solar system would only be about 0.0012 light years across.
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:19 pm

Bussani wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'm basing this off of Cell supercharging the sun with enough energy to go Supernova. A Supernova would spread that far.
That didn't answer my question. I'm curious about where the idea that a supernova would only extend to Mars comes from. Do you have a source for that? Heck, the radiation alone would reduce planets like Jupiter and Saturn to their cores. Even a supernova less than thirty lightyears away could potentially do the same to Earth.

More importantly, though, blowing up a Sun doesn't mean supercharging it with enough energy to go supernova. Cell just has to blow it up, and the more energy he uses, the faster and farther the Sun's matter would travel.
Plus the entire Solar System is more than 2 light years across.
I think you're getting that number from how far the solar system's influence extends, but what we normally think of as the solar system (i.e. the Sun and the planets) doesn't extend anywhere near that far. If we were to call Pluto the edge of the solar system (which isn't really accurate, especially these days, but it's good enough for our purposes here), then the solar system would only be about 0.0012 light years across.
So let me get this strait, if Cell were to make the sun go Supernova it would destroy the solar system? I just googled how far a Supernova can reach and this says it can reach up to 10 light years:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_big_is_a_supernova
As for where I got that idea, Death Battle. Did they get another calculation wrong because they seem to be very good at doing that.
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Bussani » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:30 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:So let me get this strait, if Cell were to make the sun go Supernova it would destroy the solar system?
To be honest, I'm not sure. Our Sun's too small to actually go supernova, so there's no math that could work out the effects. Generally, though, even if the stellar-matter flying through space didn't reach all the way to the edge of the solar system for whatever reason, the gamma rays definitely would, and they'd shred gas planets like Jupiter right down to their cores. At that point, I suppose it depends on our definition of destroyed. Just how destroyed does it have to be?

That's if Cell somehow triggered a normal supernova, of course. It might be better to look at it in the same way as blowing up a planet: you just need enough energy to send the star's matter flying away in every direction at whatever speed suits your fancy. For something of the Sun's mass and radius, about 11.4 decillion megatons would be enough to make it pop like Alderaan did in Star Wars. With more energy you could make the debris go even faster. Since even this amount is far more than necessary for the star's matter to reach escape velocity from itself, it would easily clear the solar system; however, the damage would be lessened the farther it went.

Personally, I think even if some planets farther out sort of survived the event, I'd still be happy to call such a solar system destroyed. It certainly wouldn't be a solar system anymore--just a mess of shattered planets, bald cores, and stray planets with nothing left to orbit.
I just googled how far a Supernova can reach and this says it can reach up to 10 light years:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_big_is_a_supernova
It depends on which part of the supernova you're talking about. The gamma rays would be dangerous even farther than ten light years away. A supernova ten light years away from us would very likely wipe out all life on Earth, at least.
As for where I got that idea, Death Battle. Did they get another calculation wrong because they seem to be very good at doing that.
Okay. I might have to have another look at it and try to figure out how they came up with that.
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:19 am

Last I checked a Supernova explodes with a force of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 10 Octillion, Megatons of force. Where did you get the 11.4 Decillion? Also I don't really care about the speed if Cell's attack triggers the slow effect of the system being destroyed without so much as lifting a finger. One attack destroyed it and thats good enough for me.
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Bussani » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:51 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Last I checked a Supernova explodes with a force of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 10 Octillion, Megatons of force. Where did you get the 11.4 Decillion?
11.4 decillion is the amount of external force needed to blow the Sun to bits at an impressive speed. It's different from the energy given off by an average supernova.
Also I don't really care about the speed if Cell's attack triggers the slow effect of the system being destroyed without so much as lifting a finger.
Okay, but speed matters when it comes to distance and force. The slower it is, the less powerful it would be. Also, if it's not fast enough, the gravity of the exploded star-matter would be able to slow it down to a stop and cause it all to fall back together. That said, 11.4 decillion megatons is a really excessive amount; something as small as 54.4 septillion megatons would be enough to blast the Sun apart at such a velocity that it would escape the solar system entirely.
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by SSJFinny » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:43 pm

IMO Gohan with enough training could reach SSJ4 but couldn't hold it as long as Goku or Vegeta due to his human side. Goten and Trunks I don't think so, they were born with out tails and they have never experienced or witnessed the Ozaru state. I think you would need years of working with it just to begin to have some control over it. Plus the training to handle that much power. Or maybe the human side could block it altogether because of it diminishing the violent nature of the saiyan blood. Either way if they could they would need years of training and maybe a zenki boost or two. As for Pan and Bulla, no they have to much human blood by this point i only see them topping out at SSJ2 and maybe 3 given the right circumstances. I just don't think there bodies could take the brutal and rapid use of energy. It would draw on life energy.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by SSJ4_Zankuto » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:07 am

I didn't really get why Bulma didn't use the blutz waves machine on the half-breed saiyans. They'll able to complete there metamorphosis to Oozaru form and then possible to reach Super Saiyan 4 soon after they control their Super Oozaru form. We could've had five Super Saiyan 4's against Omega Shenron, maybe six or seven for Pan and Bulla's potential to become one. A female Super Saiyan 4 would be awesome.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Rocketman » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:53 am

SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:I didn't really get why Bulma didn't use the blutz waves machine on the half-breed saiyans. They'll able to complete there metamorphosis to Oozaru form and then possible to reach Super Saiyan 4 soon after they control their Super Oozaru form. We could've had five Super Saiyan 4's against Omega Shenron, maybe six or seven for Pan and Bulla's potential to become one. A female Super Saiyan 4 would be awesome.
There's no guarantee they could control it, and they didn't have the time to screw around.

Pan and Bra can't even go Super anyways, though personally I prefer the "fullbloods only" clause.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Bussani » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:37 pm

SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:I didn't really get why Bulma didn't use the blutz waves machine on the half-breed saiyans. They'll able to complete there metamorphosis to Oozaru form and then possible to reach Super Saiyan 4 soon after they control their Super Oozaru form.
It might work on Gohan, who had a tail at some point, but the rest didn't. Like I said in an earlier post, anything's possible in Dragon Ball, but I'm not sure Goten, Trunks, Pan, and Bra can become Oozaru no matter how many Bruitz Waves you beam them with.

I guess they could have tried it, but I watched these scene recently, and they made a big deal on it being a risk because they weren't sure if Vegeta could control it. Which is weird, because he could control it in the past, but that's how it is. Bulma says she'll bet on Vegeta and take the risk. So like Rocketman said, they probably didn't want several crazy Oozaru running around.
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:20 pm

Bussani wrote:they weren't sure if Vegeta could control it. Which is weird, because he could control it in the past, but that's how it is. Bulma says she'll bet on Vegeta and take the risk.
It's been 28 years (counting RoSaT) since Vegeta transformed into an Oozaru, so I guess there was a small risk.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by SSJ4_Zankuto » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:40 pm

You see I don't 100% agree what goes on in Dragon Ball GT even when things are factual that can't be denied, or debunked at all. I guess armies of Super Saiyan 4's is just something is wee bit more problematic that I thought and just remains a fan's dream to never become a reality. All because Pan and Bulla can't turn Super Saiyan because Toriyama can't imagine one look like.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:46 pm

SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:I guess armies of Super Saiyan 4's is just something is wee bit more problematic that I thought and just remains a fan's dream to never become a reality.
You underestimate Dragon Ball Heroes' creators/AF fans waaaaay too much. :twisted:
SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:All because Pan and Bulla can't turn Super Saiyan because Toriyama can't imagine one look like.
Not an issue anymore, thanks to Dragon Ball Online & Dragon Ball Heroes.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Bussani » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:31 pm

SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:All because Pan and Bulla can't turn Super Saiyan because Toriyama can't imagine one look like.
I always forget if that was a rumor or something he actually said. I think it was a rumor...?
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Herms » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:41 pm

It is a rumor.
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Re: SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

Post by Bussani » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:56 pm

Thanks, Herms. I'll try to remember that once and for all this time!
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