SSJ4 and its multiplier

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Maybe Vegeta's not having a tail somehow hurt the amount of power Baby got from transforming?

Not only that, the Elder Kai remarked of how unnatural Bebi's transformation was and the appearance of his red eyes. It seems to be part of the theme of the Saga that Bebi arrogantly assumed he could control the Saiya-Jin power when he might have not even in the practical sense of power.

And also, Baby had to transform into an Oozaru to surpass SS4 Goku, which would make him more than 10 times stronger.

Oozaru Bebi had to keep getting zapped by Blutz Waves to recharge/ revitalize/ increase his strength; perhaps implying he didn't get the full x10 boost.

No, the only time that Oozaru Baby got an extra dose of Bruits Waves after the transformation was when Baby was unconscious, and had to take a dose by Bulma to refill his energy.

Hmm... I suppose there's a good chance I'm wrong, then, but I could have sworn he gets blasted multiple times? *Isn't able to find the part in GT.*

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And also, Baby had to transform into an Oozaru to surpass SS4 Goku, which would make him more than 10 times stronger.

Oozaru Bebi had to keep getting zapped by Blutz Waves to recharge/ revitalize/ increase his strength; perhaps implying he didn't get the full x10 boost.

No, the only time that Oozaru Baby got an extra dose of Bruits Waves after the transformation was when Baby was unconscious, and had to take a dose by Bulma to refill his energy.

Hmm... I suppose there's a good chance I'm wrong, then, but I could have sworn he gets blasted multiple times? *Isn't able to find the part in GT.*[/quote]
I didn't see the whole episodes, I went fast forward and I didn't notice more than two doses (first for transformation, second for revival).

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Well, there's still Gokuu's adulthood being restored; and Elder Kai's comment regarding Bebi' unnatural transformation.

[Fox666]

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[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

On a side note, I honestly think Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 could be compared to Fat Ma Jinn Buu with Super Shin Ma Jinn Buu getting better bodies for fighting, according to Pikkoro.

I had assumed SSJ2 Bebi-Bejiita looks as he does as regular Gt Bejitta but with the grey/ violet hair; all the other forms are just accumulations of ki and probably involving more the Tsufuru-jin/ machine mutant mutation. After all, I don't see how adding some weak Saiya-Jins could would have really added much to his power level, consider Gokuu easily handles SSJs Gohan and Goten at base. So I would imagine both their and the entire population's ki had fraction boost, which could be anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

On a side note, I honestly think Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 could be compared to Fat Ma Jinn Buu with Super Shin Ma Jinn Buu getting better bodies for fighting, according to Pikkoro.

Boo also got a lot stronger after transforming into Evil Boo, he didn't just had a better body.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

There's nothing to really suggest he got more than just a physically fit body; I mean, it's all Pikkoro remarks on.

[dbzfan7]

There's nothing to really suggest he got more than just a physically fit body; I mean, it's all Pikkoro remarks on.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

I also support the 10x SSJ3. Makes the most sense considering how outclassed Goku was by Baby's first form and was probably severely outclassed by his 3rd. I would say 10x SSJ3 or even more would be needed to win.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I've seen his statement interpreted quite differently, not even really including that last park you remarked; even so, that still says nothing about his ki/ strength. You'd think they would've stated something about them becoming much stronger, in a plain statement, but that's not the case.

I also support the 10x SSJ3. Makes the most sense considering how outclassed Goku was by Baby's first form and was probably severely outclassed by his 3rd. I would say 10x SSJ3 or even more would be needed to win.

Zaabon and Dodira were strongly outclassed by Bejiita. His next few forms showed nothing but meaningless ownage regardless.

[dbzfan7]

I've seen his statement interpreted quite differently, not even really including that last park you remarked; even so, that still says nothing about his ki/ strength. You'd think they would've stated something about them becoming much stronger, in a plain statement, but that's not the case.

I also support the 10x SSJ3. Makes the most sense considering how outclassed Goku was by Baby's first form and was probably severely outclassed by his 3rd. I would say 10x SSJ3 or even more would be needed to win.

Zaabon and Dodira were strongly outclassed by Bejiita. His next few forms showed nothing but meaningless ownage regardless.

He said everything about him is greater then before, you can't get much more bare then that. He considered before that Gotenks had a chance at beating fat boo and believed he would win in the 2 day time period, after Super Boo showed up he threw those ideals out the window and said no matter what they were screwed.

Also consider that Goku was strongly out classed in form 1. Now put up 2 more much stronger forms. I don't think after two more forms with the first dramatically surpassing Goku that 10x is wrong.

Gohan overpowers Cell, Vegetto overpowers Boohan, Gohan Overpowers Super Boo, Vegeta Overpowers Cell (so does trunks). would you say that one moment when Vegeta is close to zarbon and dodoria means the same for everything else. Would you say Gohan and Cell were really close when he was slaughtered, Would you say Vegetto is close as well. Baby was way above Goku with his first form and decimated him. He then gets 2 more transformations making him much stronger afterwards. That one moment doesn't change the outcome of several others. It's 2 fights vs over 13 slaughters which say other wise to your theory. Nothing states they are even close in battle power at all. They show the opposite actually.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

He said everything about him is greater then before, you can't get much more bare then that.

Except by just saying he's much more powerful than before... But he didn't say that. And like I also said, that's not the only interpretation of his phrase that I've seen; all the ones I've seen always remark of his physical shape/ skill; not power, specifically.

He considered before that Gotenks had a chance at beating fat boo and believed he would win in the 2 day time period, after Super Boo showed up he threw those ideals out the window and said no matter what they were screwed.

Fat Ma Jinn Buu played around a lot more, but Super Buu was pure wrath; and Super Buu's body was better for fighting, so of course he'd say that.

Also consider that Goku was strongly out classed in form 1. Now put up 2 more much stronger forms. I don't think after two more forms with the first dramatically surpassing Goku that 10x is wrong.

Nothing states how strong these forms are; for all we know, they're 1.02 - 1.04x increases in strength/ ki, or, it merely furthered Bebi's evolution into an adult. Either way, Form One Bebi-Bejitta stomps SSJ3 Gokuu, so it's impossible to tell if the others forms even did better or mattered.

Neither would 1.0 Gohan overpowers Cell, Vegetto overpowers Boohan, Gohan Overpowers Super Boo, Vegeta Overpowers Cell (so does trunks). would you say that one moment when Vegeta is close to zarbon and dodoria means the same for everything else. Baby was way above ago.

I don't know what you're saying here, but keep in mind that x2 was enough for SSJ2 Gohan to dominate Perfect Cell; multipliers don't have to be so big to make them so dramatic. And no I'm not saying it's always the same, but it doesn't mean it isn't for this case, especially since Gokuu hardly had enough time to fight Form One Bebi-Bejiita the first time in battle as SSJ3, anyway. A 1.04% difference would probably be like a jock picking on a computer nerd.

[dbzfan7]

Except by just saying he's much more powerful than before... But he didn't say that. And like I also said, that's not the only interpretation of his phrase that I've seen; all the ones I've seen always remark of his physical shape/ skill; not power, specifically.

Everything is greater is blunt dude. Did he really have to say "Every last bit of detail including power, speed, strength, ki, body is better" He practically did by saying Everything about him is greater. Everything means Everything. Goku says he can beat Fat Boo and stands no chance against Super Boo. Super Boo is equal to SSJ3 Gotenks who is way above Goku who is just somewhat stronger then Fat Boo.

Fat Ma Jinn Buu played around a lot more, but Super Buu was pure wrath; and Super Buu's body was better for fighting, so of course he'd say that.

Super Boo held back a lot too and played around during his fight with Gotenks. If he was serious it would have been over. Super Boo was not pure wrath or he would be Broly. He isn't as mindless. He even patiently waits for a while, not exactly pure wrath if he was waiting for a fight. He of course is impatient, but if he was pure wrath he would have killed everyone on the look out and not give a shit what piccolo says.

Nothing states how strong these forms are; for all we know, they're 1.02 - 1.04x increases in strength/ ki, or, it merely furthered Bebi's evolution into an adult. Either way, Form One Bebi-Bejitta stomps SSJ3 Gokuu, so it's impossible to tell if the others forms even did better or mattered.

I would think getting powered up by everyone of goku's friends and the earth would be drastically stronger. 4 Saiyans fully powered up SSJ4 Goku. Imagine that and more for Baby.

I don't know what you're saying here, but keep in mind that x2 was enough for SSJ2 Gohan to dominate Perfect Cell; multipliers don't have to be so big to make them so dramatic. And no I'm not saying it's always the same, but it doesn't mean it isn't for this case, especially since Gokuu hardly had enough time to fight Form One Bebi-Bejiita the first time in battle as SSJ3, anyway. A 1.04% difference would probably be like a jock picking on a computer nerd.

Basing the whole thing off of two fights is odd considering you would have to consider the same for every other stomp. x2 is enough for Gohan since he was already stronger then Goku was against initial Cell. How much power was Cell using against Goku 50%, 70%. Of course 2 times in that case is more than enough. In Goku's he had no chance in form 1, was drastically out classed and swatted like a fly, and then two power ups later I think Baby would be much stronger. I respect your theory but it doesn't work for me. There is no direct answer. I personally believe SSJ Gotenks could beat Fat Boo in the 2 days according to Goku while others say otherwise. I don't think Vegetto Gohan, Vegeta, or Trunks were 1.2 times stronger then their opponents when they crushed them. But it's all theory.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I would think getting powered up by everyone of goku's friends and the earth would be drastically stronger. 4 Saiyans fully powered up SSJ4 Goku.

You'd think with the dramatic transformation, but it's GT. Bebi's transformations =/= recharging energy. Let's not forget, Gokuu single-handedly overpowered SSJ Bebi-Gohan and Goten in /base/ form, so their powers affecting Bebi's increase in strength is up in the air, at best.

In Goku's he had no chance in form 1, was drastically out classed and swatted like a fly, and then two power ups later I think Baby would be much stronger. I respect your theory but it doesn't work for me. There is no direct answer. I personally believe SSJ Gotenks could beat Fat Boo in the 2 days according to Goku while others say otherwise.

I re-watched it, and, I don't remember First Form Bebi-Bejiita swatting Gokuu to the ground in SSJ3; the battle ends quickly before anything is really shown for certain besides that Bebi could catch Gokuu's fist; I believe you might be mistaking the second fight when he re-grew his tail and fought Final Form Bebi-Bejiita, in which, Gokuu still seemed to do surprisingly better against him for awhile before getting swatted.

[dbzfan7]

I would think getting powered up by everyone of goku's friends and the earth would be drastically stronger. 4 Saiyans fully powered up SSJ4 Goku.

You'd think with the dramatic transformation, but it's GT. Bebi's transformations =/= recharging energy. Let's not forget, Gokuu single-handedly overpowered SSJ Bebi-Gohan and Goten in /base/ form, so their powers affecting Bebi's increase in strength is up in the air, at best.

They still fully power up SSJ4 Goku. The same people give their power to baby and more people do. I don't think it's far fetched. Same show where goku's base equals SSJ3 z which is ridiculous but happens.

In Goku's he had no chance in form 1, was drastically out classed and swatted like a fly, and then two power ups later I think Baby would be much stronger. I respect your theory but it doesn't work for me. There is no direct answer. I personally believe SSJ Gotenks could beat Fat Boo in the 2 days according to Goku while others say otherwise.

I re-watched it, and, I don't remember First Form Bebi-Bejiita swatting Gokuu to the ground in SSJ3; the battle ends quickly before anything is really shown for certain besides that Bebi could catch Gokuu's fist; I believe you might be mistaking the second fight when he re-grew his tail and fought Final Form Bebi-Bejiita, in which, Gokuu still seemed to do surprisingly better against him for awhile before getting swatted.[/quote]

Baby didn't even feel SSJ3 Goku's punch. He smiles and Goku is shocked. Baby didn't even get bruised while Goku did. I would say Baby was much stronger if he could damage Goku while Goku can't hurt him. Then he gets much more powerful by adding earths energy and the saiyans.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

They still fully power up SSJ4 Goku. The same people give their power to baby and more people do. I don't think it's far fetched. Same show where goku's base equals SSJ3 z which is ridiculous but happens.

I'm not saying it is, either, but it's not far-fetched to assume it doesn't give him a big boost in power, either. There's never really been an instance when someone used the power of everyone else to power their self up except in movies, which follow random Toei logic.

Here's a random thought: maybe Gokuu was using Kaiou-ken in Super Saiya-Jin Four against Bebi; it would make sense of why he called his new Kame wave "Kamehame-ha x10"; it's not like it'd be different from any other Kamehame-ha he'd do in that form, so why the specific title? Also the fact that the beam is red.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think the SSJ4 multiplier just shoots up everyone's power up when it's transferred. It's a fairly simple concept that isn't contradicted. I use this same method when calculating how Broly was beaten in Movie 8. Everyone's base power was shot up by Goku's SSJ multiplier.

[Nazi Cola]

I thought the point of Death Battle was to not make shit up, yet...they used 10x for Super Saiyan 4...right...

I just use a varying multiplier. Whatever the user's potential is at the point of transformation, blam, that's the power increase.

As for Baby and Goku...

Episode 37
Time: 13m25s
Context: Bulma is frantic after seeing Baby knocked out
Bulma: "There's no way Baby-sama could be done in by a Saiyan!"
Note: In the dub, she says the only way to revive him is the Bruits wave amplifier.

Episode 37
Time: around 15m10s
Context: The Bruits wave amplifier is reviving Baby
Baby: "W-what is this? Power! I'm being filled with power! What is going on?!"
Bulma: "Baby-sama, it's the Bruits waves! Your whole body is being bathed in Bruits waves, so please, regain your strength!"

Episode 37
Time: 20m5s
Context: As Baby approaches Goku
Narrator: "Great Ape Baby has regained his full power, while Son Goku has barely any power left. Will Goku be able to fight his way out of this critical pinch?"
Note: In the dub, the narrator mentions Kibitoshin turning key players back to the good side with the Ultra Holy Water, and wonders how long Goku can hold his ruse up.

Episode 38
Time: around 40s
Context: Beginning episode narration
Narrator: "The Great Ape Baby had recovered his full power, while Son Goku had hardly any power left! Will Goku be able to fight his way through such an overwhelming difference in power?"
Note: In the dub, the narrator doesn't mention any of this.

Episode 34
Time: around 3m55s
Context: Pan suddenly stopped moving
Mister Satan: "Pan-chan, what on earth is the matter?"
Pan: "It's a Ki! Right now, I can feel a strong Ki!"
Mister Satan: "What do you mean?"
Pan: "I can tell! This strong Ki, it has to be Grandpa!"
Note: In the dub, Pan doesn't specify power. Instead, she talks about a strange feeling she has.

Episode 34
Time: around 4m40s
Context: Baby recovering in the rubble
Baby: "Man, what incredible power! [ ] But don't go thinking that just because you've gotten so huge, you've also become that strong! [ ] I'll make you regret that you survived!"
Note: In the dub, Baby talks about the advantage his race has over Saiyans, which is genetic engineering, instead of mentioning Goku's power.

Episode 34
Time: around 6m35s
Context: Pan and Mister Satan have just arrived at the battlefield
Pan: "I can sense his Ki growing stronger and stronger."
Mister Satan: "Y-you mean Goku-san's Ki?"
Pan: "Right. He's fighting to defeat Baby!"
Note: In the dub, Pan talks about where Goku's energy is coming from, and then confirms that the giant ape is him, instead of mentioning his actual power.

Episode 34
Time: 7m45s
Context: Kibitoshin is wondering what's going on with Goku
Elder Kaioshin: "As a result of us suspending his training right in the middle, and forcibly drawing his tail out, he is still unable to control his mighty power."

Episode 34
Time: 10m15s
Context: Kibitoshin is about to go cut Goku's tail off to return him to normal
Elder Kaioshin: "If you cut off his tail, then all of his power that we worked so hard for will be lost! And it's not as though he has defeated Baby yet. That is absolutely our final measure."
Kibitoshin: "S-so then..."
Elder Kaioshin: "If he can recover his rationality and control that incredible power of his, he will indeed become Super Saiyan 4."

Episode 34
Time: around 20m0s
Context: As Goku is regaining his rationality
Baby: (thinking) "What Ki is this?"
Note: In the dub, he wonders what the transformation is that he's sensing.

[lash]

The state seems to have varying multipliers.
Perhaps dependent on what kind of Brutes waves the individual was given.

Initial Goku's SSJ4 ended up weaker(seemingly by just a bit) than Vegeta-Baby's Golden Ozaru due to normal brutes waves.
Golden Ozaru Vegeta-Baby was given 'amplified brutes waves'.

Since he performed fusion without altering his battle power...it's safe to say Vegeta's SSJ4 was equal to Surpassed Limits SSJ4 Goku(who, although was roughed up due to fighting Omega Shenron/Super Yi Xing Long, still stated he had more than enough energy to beat normal Syn Shenron/Yi Xing Long alone after he had defused from Gogeta. Syn Shenron/Yi Xing Long was someone normal SSJ4 Goku couldn't even touch). Vegeta was given 'ultra amplified brutes waves'.

As for exactly how much this multiplier is, well, this is where you can use your imagination. Personally, I see it as 500x base for Golden Ozaru and 1000x base for SSJ4. SSJ4 Goku does state he has become 'a little bit' stronger than his Golden Ozaru state when speaking to Vegeta-Baby. If he meant that literally or not, is up for you to decide. But I guess based on that, the fact that SSJ4 is really just a Golden Ozaru 'in control' , I don't see any reason to make SSJ4 like 10x stronger than Golden Ozaru or anything. Golden Ozaru Goku was already stated to be stronger than final form-pre-Golden-Ozaru Vegeta-Baby, just as his own SSJ4 state was shown to be.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The state seems to have varying multipliers.
Perhaps dependent on what kind of Brutes waves the individual was given.

The Bruits Waves just recover the power, it doesn't give extra strength. At least that's what I understood.

[lash]

The state seems to have varying multipliers.
Perhaps dependent on what kind of Brutes waves the individual was given.

The Bruits Waves just recover the power, it doesn't give extra strength. At least that's what I understood.

You realize bruits waves are the basis for the Golden Ozaru/SSJ4 transformation, right?

If it didn't give strength, at least in the Saiyan sense, Vegeta and Vegeta-Baby wouldn't have transformed at all without a tail.

And if being given amplified waves are only for the sole purpose of enabling Golden Ozaru without a tail, why would bulma distinguish and create another machine...'ultra amplified' compared to her previous one of 'amplified' that she used on Baby? ...With it ironically turning out that Vegeta's SSJ4 is stronger than a usual SSJ4(remember Vegeta's base state was a great deal weaker than Goku's too). Then, when you think about bulma's hyperbole statement of making Vegeta a SSJ5...I think its pretty implied her ultra amplified bruits wave machine gave more power than normal waves.