How would the story change if Toriyama planned ahead?

[theawesomepossum777]

Don't know if this is the right spot buuuuuuuuuut..... How would certain plot points and the general story change if Toriyama was a different writer. What if he didn't write on the seat of his pants? What if he had the whole story in his head from the beginning? You can leave in or out the fact that he is a gag manga artist, first and foremost. Be creative people! I don't have anything to really say because I'm normally not the kind of person to get into discussions like this.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm how would any of us know?

[Chuquita]

Putting aside Toriyama's affinity for seat-of-his-pants writing and that he doesn't seem like his attention could be held by having to plan stuff out, that aside:
I bet it'd probably be a lot more like One Piece; DB-earth would have a wider landscape with a big variety of different places to visit instead of being mostly-wasteland, the pace at which Goku became stronger would've been slowed down to avoid hitting that wall of "there's no one else we can possibly throw at this guy, he's just too strong", they may have done more in outer space--maybe visit the original Planet Saiya, there may have been set ups to allow the Earthlings and Piccolo to stay in the game longer (or give them specific skills sets ala the Straw Hats). The manga probably could've continued on a good several years longer than it did, but probably not as long as OP, because Toriyama would want to call it quits at some point.

That's all I can think of atm.

[Sinestro]

Toriyama planning ahead? Inconceivable!

[Makaioshin]

Yeah, there isn't any way to tell how different the story would be if Toriyama planned ahead. If he had the whole story in his head from the beginning then I'm sure the whole story would be a lot shorter and the main cast wouldn't change as much as it did. There are also some characters like Kuririn and Vegeta that he decided to keep because fans liked them and it is hard to imagine DB without either of them.

[Saiga]

There's no way of saying, because we don't really know what parts of the story were a result of him writing by the seat of his pants. Except for the Androids, I suppose, but those weren't a result of him changing his mind but his former editor not liking them.

[Gokuden]

Goku would have been seen in a pod during the prologue of vol. 1, remember Toriyama didn't know what Goku was before. He thought he was just another furry living in the wacky world of Arale-chan.

[bleed0range]

Some may argue the show would be better because of it, but I am one of those people who think that you can be the most creative when you are under pressure. He needed ideas and he needed them right away so he made decisions that probably led to more crazy twists and turns. Who knows really. I like that the creator didn't even know what was next, exactly.

[Naughty Kinto Un]

The writing of the Cell arc may have been tighter. That story was an absolute mess.

Toriyama has a knack for writing at the edge of his seat though. Dragon Ball may not have been the most sophisticated, multi-layered, or structurally sound series, but I think he's a natural born writer. Had he more patience he probably could've been much more than the already talented but rough-around-the-edges writer he was. If the Freeza arc is any indication, where he admitted putting a little extra effort in the plot, it's possible that if he went all out he could have produced some truly phenomenal work. Then again, some writers work better on the fly.

In terms of plot, the Saiya-jin and the Freeza arcs were the strongest (I'm not saying that they're necessarily the best arcs, just more polished). If Toriyama planned ahead, I think there may have been more emphasis on character development, relationship dynamics, and tightly plotted suspense. All of those three crucial elements, in my opinion, had a drastic decline in quality from the Cell arc onward, hampering the series' emotional power -- which, if you're going to sacrifice a comedic tone for a serious one, is a grave creative error.

Apologies since I know this doesn't really answer your question, me rambling more about "what if he planned better" over "what if he had it all planned out from the beginning." Serial storytelling usually works best with some flexibility. Besides, I don't think Toriyama had matured enough as a writer by the time he started Dragon Ball to effectively plan a long running series in its entirety beforehand. It took him a few arcs to find his stride as an adventure comedy storyteller.

[NeoKING]

Putting aside Toriyama's affinity for seat-of-his-pants writing and that he doesn't seem like his attention could be held by having to plan stuff out, that aside:
I bet it'd probably be a lot more like One Piece; DB-earth would have a wider landscape with a big variety of different places to visit instead of being mostly-wasteland, the pace at which Goku became stronger would've been slowed down to avoid hitting that wall of "there's no one else we can possibly throw at this guy, he's just too strong", they may have done more in outer space--maybe visit the original Planet Saiya, there may have been set ups to allow the Earthlings and Piccolo to stay in the game longer (or give them specific skills sets ala the Straw Hats). The manga probably could've continued on a good several years longer than it did, but probably not as long as OP, because Toriyama would want to call it quits at some point.

That's all I can think of atm.

I don't think so. Actually, I think a lot of the OP/DB comparisions need to stop. One Piece is clearly an adventure, with twists and turns that have to be made in an overarching and expanding world so that the story can go on for ages. Dragon Ball is like, a fighting game in manga form. Story and proper logic comes second to action.

[Fizzer]

I think it would have been wonderful if Toriyama thought of everything beforehand and had time to refine and restructure his ideas, and avoid plotholes. Imagine if someone sent the Daizenshuu or a full set of the manga back in time for Toriyama to read before he wrote DB. We would have seen a much better use of the characters, better character development and relationship development, more gradual power increases, and the arcs would have been woven together more fluently, with stuff like hints at future events that are only noticable retrospectively, like Dr Gero being mentioned or seen as an unimportant character in the Red Ribbon Army arc. We may have seen more stuff happening between timeskips.

One interesting thing is that we would have probably seen a change in tone for parts of the series to make the overall feel more consistent. Which way he would have gone is a mystery, but I'd put my money on the action/comedy balance of around the Red Ribbon arc.

[Michsi]

I think I'm probably one of the few people out there that believe that Toriyama planned the story a little more than most give him credit for . Yes, despite what Toriyama himself has said. There are instances where he does use scenes that can be called forshadowing , like , say, Guru mentioning Piccolo and Kami's fusion in the Namek arc or Baba saying that Goku will save the world one day 2 arcs earlier before he actually does. Of course, that doesn't mean that he thought of things ahead in great detail, like how or why Piccolo would fuse or who or what Goku would save the world from, but the he did throw things out there that he might want to use later on.

So I can't say how much the story would have changed if he planned ahead more. Maybe more foreshadowing? The SSJ being mentioned way earlier in the Namek arc? It was such a big deal, but iIrc, it's only brought up at the end of the arc. Also Gohan becoming the hero in the Cell arc should have been hinted at more . He was almost utterly ignored as a character until Goku takes him to the ROSaT.

[Saiga]

I think I'm probably one of the few people out there that believe that Toriyama planned the story a little more than most give him credit for . Yes, despite what Toriyama himself has said. There are instances where he does use scenes that can be called forshadowing , like , say, Guru mentioning Piccolo and Kami's fusion in the Namek arc or Baba saying that Goku will save the world one day 2 arcs earlier before he actually does. Of course, that doesn't mean that he thought of things ahead in great detail, like how or why Piccolo would fuse or who or what Goku would save the world from, but the he did throw things out there that he might want to use later on.

So I can't say how much the story would have changed if he planned ahead more. Maybe more foreshadowing? The SSJ being mentioned way earlier in the Namek arc? It was such a big deal, but iIrc, it's only brought up at the end of the arc. Also Gohan becoming the hero in the Cell arc should have been hinted at more . He was almost utterly ignored as a character until Goku takes him to the ROSaT.

Although, since Toriyama ultimately decided he didn't want Gohan in the hero role, maybe with more planning he would have never put him there in the first place?

[Marco Polo]

Toriyama can't plan ahead for the life of him so I guess that if he DID have to plan ahead, he would turn the manga into a collaboration with someone who has that skill. Like Yuuji Horii, a friend of his who created the Dragon Quest franchise. I'm thinking the whole DB/DBZ series would have felt more like a manga JRPG as a result, like Dragon Quest: Dai no Daiboken (also known as "Dragon Quest: Fly" in Europe).

[Michsi]

Although, since Toriyama ultimately decided he didn't want Gohan in the hero role, maybe with more planning he would have never put him there in the first place?

I suppose being the hero of the arc doesn't mean he was leading role material. I mean, he basically gets thrown in the spot light at the end of the Cell arc, and he did well in that part of the story, but I guess the author felt that he wasn't suited for the full-time job of a MC. Even so, planning ahead doesn't necessarily mean you can't change things during it's run. A lot of authors do so for several different reasons.

[MCDaveG]

I dunno, but I think that Toriyama's building the story ''right now'', then retconning and modifiying some details later, is what makes the Dragon Ball so awesome.
I kinda like how One Piece is build up, but as it is so long, I really forget lot of these foreshadowed things and it's making me think: ''Oh, so it's like this, or for that, nice''
But I never forget that shock as the new villain revealing, that Goku is alien and Piccolo is not demon but alien too.
But well, really awesome thing that was kinda planned ahead is Trunks. That was the second shock I had in the series. Bulma having son with Vegeta, who is Super Saiyan.
That is probably my most favorite moment, when I was watching the show on the run in TV.

[MCDaveG]

Although, since Toriyama ultimately decided he didn't want Gohan in the hero role, maybe with more planning he would have never put him there in the first place?

I suppose being the hero of the arc doesn't mean he was leading role material. I mean, he basically gets thrown in the spot light at the end of the Cell arc, and he did well in that part of the story, but I guess the author felt that he wasn't suited for the full-time job of a MC. Even so, planning ahead doesn't necessarily mean you can't change things during it's run. A lot of authors do so for several different reasons.

They should've at least change the anime opening. I was so hooked up on Gohan being main hero as a kid and then he got tossed aside.

[hleV]

I heard that AT focused more on storytelling in the Boo arc. See how that ended up.

[MCDaveG]

I heard that AT focused more on storytelling in the Boo arc. See how that ended up.

Haha, well, I love Buu arc. But it's true that the Buu spanned kinda long and there wasn't that much things going like in Saiyan/Freeza or Cell arc.
Also it's damn fast paced carneval of fighters in later part. I remember missing few episodes in TV, where I left around Gohan's power up and returned to see the fight of Vegetto and thought for some while, that it's somewhat transformed Gohan..... Buu arc was really crazy with transformations, fusions and such

[DBZAOTA482]

I heard that AT focused more on storytelling in the Boo arc. See how that ended up.

Keep in mind Toriyama-sensei has been writing a highly-popular epic in such a hazardous style for about 10 years by that point, so he probably decided there to stop caring about plotting altogether (and at the final arc, of all places ). That said, I thought it got off with a great start (except for Kaioshin's prattle) but after Vegeta sacrificed himself, Toriyama started getting carried away and it became little more than one huge pissing contest. Not to mention it solidified DBZ/Dragon Ball Part 2's status quo that "If you're not Saiyan, you're not worth shit", and it's also the biggest perpetuation for Goku being called a neglectful family man.

Generally speaking though, I think if he didn't go with the writing-at-the-seat-of-your-pants style it would have remained a story about finding the dragonballs with a hefty amount of gag humor thrown instead of shifting tones saga-by-saga.