Kaio-ken Vs. Super Saiya-jin

ItsAllGood · Post by **ItsAllGood** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:57 am

Kaio-ken, (to me anyway), has always seemed to be a way of unnaturally increasing power. By "unnaturally", it has been shown that Kaio-ken causes enough strain on Goku's body that, if it were multiplied too highly, i.e, Kaio-ken x1 , x2 etc , the body could explode. Goku seemed aware of his limits (and consequences) by using this technique. I am also aware that Kaio-ken was used as a SSJ in a filler scene in the dub.

As we know, there was no real need for Kaio-ken after he became a SSJ. Or was there?

SSJ on the other hand, increased his power by making more defined changes to his structure, i.e, muscle, speed and power. This indicates that the body itself changes to contain this new power.

What I would like to know is, considering Goku's massive potential, could he have used Kaio-ken as a SSJ to increase his power even further?

Think about it. The SSJ form (as a whole) seemed almost limitless in terms of potential, as this form is the basis of his SSJ forms yet to appear, i.e - SSJ2 and 3. I don't believe Kaio-ken would have caused anywhere near as much stress on his body whilst in a SSJ form, since the potential exhibited as a SSJ would have contained Kaio-ken quite easily, whilst still giving him that extra boost. Indeed, he could have taken it much, much higher due to his potential.

As previously stated, Kaio-ken causes the body to expand as it struggles to contain the power. Massive power was unleashed as a SSJ, and we have seen that whilst in the SSJ form, higher levels could be achieved. Using Kaio-ken as a SSJ would have appeared to be a drop in an ocean in terms of containment, as opposed to a drop in a teacup whilst in his base form.

Comments?[/i]

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:43 am

If he could've, he would've.

And yes, I know that's the boring answer, but whatever.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:12 pm

Kaioken damages the body unnecessarily and doesn't provide anywhere near as much power as SSJ. My guess has always been that, by the time there was an instance when Kaioken would be needed on top of SSJ, the damage would vastly outweigh the benefits.

For example, say Goku receives 1 "damage" for every 1 PL added. At a PL of 8,000, kaioken x2 = 16,000 PL and therefore 16,000 "damage." With Super Saiyan, however, his PL is in the hundreds of millions, and therefore kaioken would result in hundreds of millions, if not billions, of "damage."

Notes to keep in mind:

-Kaioken has a limit of 10 when "mastered," can go higher depending on how much damage the body can take.
-Kaioken up to 10 must be used in increments or else damage will be caused (unless mastered).

-Super Saiyan is the same as Kaioken x50.
-Super Saiyan has absolutely none of the drawbacks of Kaioken.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:41 pm

Dayspring wrote:Kaioken damages the body unnecessarily and doesn't provide anywhere near as much power as SSJ. My guess has always been that, by the time there was an instance when Kaioken would be needed on top of SSJ, the damage would vastly outweigh the benefits.

For example, say Goku receives 1 "damage" for every 1 PL added. At a PL of 8,000, kaioken x2 = 16,000 PL and therefore 16,000 "damage." With Super Saiyan, however, his PL is in the hundreds of millions, and therefore kaioken would result in hundreds of millions, if not billions, of "damage."

Notes to keep in mind:

-Kaioken has a limit of 10 when "mastered," can go higher depending on how much damage the body can take.
-Kaioken up to 10 must be used in increments or else damage will be caused (unless mastered).

-Super Saiyan is the same as Kaioken x50.
-Super Saiyan has absolutely none of the drawbacks of Kaioken.

You and your numbers

I'd be wary of trying to pin specific numbers on this stuff unless you're wiling to throw out a lot of extra stuff that would contradict such linear thinking.
We know that Kaioken strains Goku's body while boosting his power. SSj seems to boost his power and strengthen his body, while taking a smaller amount of energy.
Also, it seems like he can handle increasing the Kaioken level incremently better than just jumping to his maximum tolerance.

All your number are great, if you're playing DnD - but Toriyama was never much for "the math".

Bardock the Mexican · Post by **Bardock the Mexican** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:29 pm

I think it's important to remember that in the series the Kaiouken or in real Japanese and not romaji-ized Japanese,　会王けん or the fist of the master of worlds aka the Kaiousama. The technique was only supposed to be used at low levels and for short bursts of speed and power. The only length of time we see Goku use it for is during the fight with Vegita. He only pushes it further out of desperation due to his opponent's obscene power. It is logical that it would hurt him and that it would have some side effects on his ability. After all, he could have blown up and died by pushing it past two-fold kaiouken.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:19 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Kaioken damages the body unnecessarily and doesn't provide anywhere near as much power as SSJ. My guess has always been that, by the time there was an instance when Kaioken would be needed on top of SSJ, the damage would vastly outweigh the benefits.

For example, say Goku receives 1 "damage" for every 1 PL added. At a PL of 8,000, kaioken x2 = 16,000 PL and therefore 16,000 "damage." With Super Saiyan, however, his PL is in the hundreds of millions, and therefore kaioken would result in hundreds of millions, if not billions, of "damage."

Notes to keep in mind:

-Kaioken has a limit of 10 when "mastered," can go higher depending on how much damage the body can take.
-Kaioken up to 10 must be used in increments or else damage will be caused (unless mastered).

-Super Saiyan is the same as Kaioken x50.
-Super Saiyan has absolutely none of the drawbacks of Kaioken.
You and your numbers

I'd be wary of trying to pin specific numbers on this stuff unless you're wiling to throw out a lot of extra stuff that would contradict such linear thinking.
We know that Kaioken strains Goku's body while boosting his power. SSj seems to boost his power and strengthen his body, while taking a smaller amount of energy.
Also, it seems like he can handle increasing the Kaioken level incremently better than just jumping to his maximum tolerance.

All your number are great, if you're playing DnD - but Toriyama was never much for "the math".

Not at all. I was using the PL bit as an example to explain that the greater the increase, the greater the damage. Everything else I said is canon fact.

ShadowAssailantX · Post by **ShadowAssailantX** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:15 am

Bardock the Mexican wrote:I think it's important to remember that in the series the Kaiouken or in real Japanese and not romaji-ized Japanese,　会王けん or the fist of the master of worlds aka the Kaiousama. The technique was only supposed to be used at low levels and for short bursts of speed and power. The only length of time we see Goku use it for is during the fight with Vegita.

You must have never seen the Freeza arc.

Masako-kun · Post by **Masako-kun** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:21 am

Dayspring wrote: -Kaioken has a limit of 10 when "mastered," can go higher depending on how much damage the body can take.
-Kaioken up to 10 must be used in increments or else damage will be caused (unless mastered).

Didn't Goku master Kaio-ken x20 on his way to Namek when he was trying to steer away from a speeding comet or something?

And I remember during the time he spent in the other world, in fact when he was fighting Paikuhan, I remember he went Kaioken during SSJ calling it "Super Kaioken".

Of course, that's what I remember, it might've been different but in numerical figures, you are right. So, you could say, they're statistical anomalies on TOEI's part.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:10 pm

Masako-kun wrote:
Dayspring wrote: -Kaioken has a limit of 10 when "mastered," can go higher depending on how much damage the body can take.
-Kaioken up to 10 must be used in increments or else damage will be caused (unless mastered).
Didn't Goku master Kaio-ken x20 on his way to Namek when he was trying to steer away from a speeding comet or something?

And I remember during the time he spent in the other world, in fact when he was fighting Paikuhan, I remember he went Kaioken during SSJ calling it "Super Kaioken".

Of course, that's what I remember, it might've been different but in numerical figures, you are right. So, you could say, they're statistical anomalies on TOEI's part.

The Kaioken x20 is a dub line, in the origianl he just says 'full power'. Plus that epeisode is filler so even if he said that in the original it wasn't in the manga.

Also, yea, the Super Kaiken was used against Pikuhan and it looked pretty cool too, also filler, but yes, he did call it that in the Japanese version too.

To me, the Kaioken doesn't compare to SSJ, I mean, SSJ is far more superior, and since that scene was filler, Toriyama never considered having to use the Kaioken ever again seeing as SSJ was the better way of powering up. They just made him use Super Kaioken for the fun of it, to spice up the episode, new moves are always good, and there doesn't really need to be an explantion on how he was able to do it since he could have learned it in the after life.

Plus him being dead, so the strain on the body wouldn't be as much.

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:42 pm

<Snipped>

Sorry, totally misunderstood what was going on there.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:20 pm

Dude, he was talking about the Filler episode when Goku has to steer himself away from that star.

Edit - You fixed it. I'll remove my quoting of it.

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:24 pm

Oh, I got totally crossed up. Sorry about that.

Nekoni · Post by **Nekoni** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:41 pm

I believe Kaiouken is a release of power, and SSJ is a new 'body' and capability of power.

I'll explain it in more linear terms by, say we eat a hamburger. We could drink a digestive aide (sports drink) and release that energy fast, or normal, or slow. SSJ would be a bigger stomach, housing 4 hamburgers X3 and then, ontop of that you could drink the sports-drink and gain even more power.

The same is true with chi, or at-least what I know of chi. (you get chi from the universe around you)

I hope that makes sense- that is in the very least my view and what I find logical, especially given the filler bit too.

ItsAllGood · Post by **ItsAllGood** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:55 am

"The same is true with chi, or at-least what I know of chi. (you get chi from the universe around you)" - Nekoni

Granted, that is one way of looking at it, but in my opinion within the DB universe, Chi is generated by the characters in two different ways.

The first is externally, I.E - Spirit Bomb. This would be used when the character is not able to provide enough Chi to defeat a foe -

*Insert Chibi Buu here*

The second is internally - I.E Kamehameha, Galic-Ho etc. This would be used in most circumstances. This type of Chi can be increased by way of training, as demonstrated by SSJ levels and numerous power-ups during the different arcs -

*Insert Kaioken, SSJ1,2 and 3 here*

In any case, we could both be wrong!

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:00 pm

Usually the concept with "chi" is the energy that you have in you, you're "life force" if you will. Though Nekoni is correct in the idea of everything having "chi", which is also part of it's concept. When talking about "chi" in martial arts though, it deals with one's own most of the time.

Nekoni · Post by **Nekoni** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:48 pm

Ah it was just this series of martial arts I watched, it said that chi was in everything, but the chi of the universe could be drawn into the body to make it stronger. It said, however, that the more chi you drew in, the more likely it was to draw in evil.

(just a little info where I got that from)

Also, like kaioken, sportsdrink and sugary foods can damage your body. (I have the misfortune of a weak nose blood-vessel-- yes, like Roshi-- so cosuming too many energy foods raises my blood preassure and POP!!! XD)

That gives me an odd view now... of the only thing happening when Goku used Kaiouken too much... being one gorey nosebleed

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:11 pm

Funny stuff happening here, although the food argument makes sense. I think that the Kaio-ken more forces out and amplifies the power in one's current stage, whereas the SSj stages unlock new reserves of power. In that sense, it makes sense for Goku to be able to use Kaio-ken on top of SSj.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:16 pm

Nekoni wrote:Ah it was just this series of martial arts I watched, it said that chi was in everything, but the chi of the universe could be drawn into the body to make it stronger. It said, however, that the more chi you drew in, the more likely it was to draw in evil.

(just a little info where I got that from)

Yes there is definitely that aspect to it. I just meant in my last post that from my martial arts experience and all the reading I've done over the years, most concentrate on focusing and increasing one's own "chi" to accomplish techniques, acts of strength, etc.

MyVisionity · Post by **MyVisionity** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:25 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:Funny stuff happening here, although the food argument makes sense. I think that the Kaio-ken more forces out and amplifies the power in one's current stage, whereas the SSj stages unlock new reserves of power. In that sense, it makes sense for Goku to be able to use Kaio-ken on top of SSj.

That's a very good description there. I too interpret Kaiouken in that manner, as sort of an advanced version of what Goku and the others from Earth are already capable of doing with their ki.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:59 pm

Okay, here is my take on this. The Kaioken could only be used to do a quick doubling of Goku's power initially when he learned it. Short, quick bursts of double power. It was all he could handle and all North Kaio allowed him to do. When he pushes it to triple his base power, and then even to quadruple his base power during the beam struggle with Vegeta, we see that he nearly destroys himself. This due to the fact that his body was not prepared and trained to endure such multiplied bursts yet.

By the time Son reached Namek he could safely multiply his base power by ten, and he pushed it to times 20 against Freeza once. Super Saiyan, by comparison was a huge boost of continual power. For Goku to use the Kaioken while as a newly transformed Super Saiyan would have destroyed him for sure. His Super Saiyan power doubled would have been far beyond anything he could handle in the battle with Freeza.

In reference to the anime-only filler scene, we must bear two things in mind that actually allow for that to happen:

The first being that Other-World Tournament is not long after Son Goku was battling Cell on earth. At that point, Goku had become both Ascended Saiyan Phase 1 and Ascended Saiyan Phase 2 in front of Gohan during thier training together in the Room of Space and Time. Goku was already reaching the limitations of Super Saiyan, and trying to find ways to surpass it. His body was fully capable of handling the full power of Super Saiyan (1) and he was able to use the Controlled state of it where he doesn't put such a drain on himself while in the form.

The second thing that needs to be thought of is the fact that Son Goku was dead, and as such could pres himself even further than normal in the Other World.

Considering that Goku was already on the verge of surpassing Super Saiyan for Super Saiyan 2, and that Pikkon seemed to have taken a slight speed advantage over Goku after removing his weighted helmet and cloak, that filler moment makes sense. Son Goku mostly likely used the most basic Kaioken x2 to double his Super Saiyan speed and strength momentarily and slam Pikkon with an attack.

He never uses such a combonation before or after that. Perhaps it sapped too much of his energy too quickly? It is hard to say, but that is the only instance of something like that occuring.

Kanzenshuu

Kaio-ken Vs. Super Saiya-jin

Kaio-ken Vs. Super Saiya-jin

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