Ssj3 Vegeta

[Son_Gohan]

Vegeta realized his limits in the Buu arc and that same drive to surpass Goku no longer aided him in becoming stronger. In 7 years he couldn't become Goku's equal by his own methods, much less Gohan's state at the Cell Games. The gap between SSJ2 & 3 is so much bigger in comparison. It doesn't seem very realistic for him to achieve a form that is harder than a level he couldn't even reach previously.

[Marco Polo]

At the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, Goku was looking forward to fighting Uub but not Vegeta, which suggests Vegeta still wasn't as powerful as Kid Buu/Uub.

But would Goku know the results of Vegeta's training if he hasn't seen him in five years?

We don't really know, but Goku was like 0% excited at meeting Vegeta again after all that time. He didn't seem curious about what kind of power increase Vegeta might have have. I think either he could somehow sense that Vegeta's power increase wasn't large enough, or he just simply didn't care about it. Either way, in the ending, Vegeta himself didn't seem really frustrated at not having shown Goku his possible new tricks (and the Kanzenban ending seemed to imply that Vegeta still didn't think he was as powerful as Goku).

If he had SSJ3, you'd think he would fly off, throw Goku and Uub a "friendly" ki wave to stop them and then tell Goku "Hey you're not getting away, I didn't have the time to show you this *transforms into SSJ3* " or something.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Vegeta realized his limits in the Buu arc and that same drive to surpass Goku no longer aided him in becoming stronger. In 7 years he couldn't become Goku's equal by his own methods, much less Gohan's state at the Cell Games. The gap between SSJ2 & 3 is so much bigger in comparison. It doesn't seem very realistic for him to achieve a form that is harder than a level he couldn't even reach previously.

1.) Vegeta was a lot weaker than Goku at the Cell games. 2.) Vegeta was limited to Earthly methods of training. 3.) Vegeta realized why Goku was always one step ahead not that he has reached his limits. 4.) Vegeta still wants to "show Kakarotto defeat" in the Kanzenban ending. Vegeta has the knowledge and the drive to achieve ssj3 so IMO he did sometime in the 10 year time frame.

[Zephyr]

4.) Vegeta still wants to "show Kakarotto defeat" in the Kanzenban ending. Vegeta has the knowledge and the drive to achieve ssj3 so IMO he did sometime in the 10 year time frame.

That Kanzenban ending just makes it seem to me that he actually didn't reach the form. Doesn't he say that he will "someday" defeat him? That makes it seem like there's still a significant gap between them. If he had SSj3, there wouldn't be a significant gap between them, if any.

[hleV]

Goku could just transform into a SS3 for a second and finish Vegeta (if Vegeta didn't have SS3 to counter that). Yet Vegeta entered the TB.

You know that Goku doesn't fight like that. He wants to have a great fight, so he can have it with Super Saiyan 2.

So... you think Vegeta would enter a TB knowing that Goku's gonna give him a handicap (by not going SS3)? C'mon, I thought you knew better than that...

Again, you don't know how strong Vegeta is at the end of the series.

So, the only thing we can do is guess how strong Vegeta is. And like I said in my previous posts, I have base Vegeta equal to base Goku (ignoring BoG for now).

My point is that you don't know how strong Vegeta (or Goku, for that matter) is at the end of the series. How can you claim that Vegeta needs more training to go SS3?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So... you think Vegeta would enter a TB knowing that Goku's gonna give him a handicap (by not going SS3)? C'mon, I thought you knew better than that...

I don't think they would even go Super Saiyan. They entered for fun, and mainly for Oob. Not for their final battle.

My point is that you don't know how strong Vegeta (or Goku, for that matter) is at the end of the series. How can you claim that Vegeta needs more training to go SS3?

That's my opinion. We don't know anything about Goku or Vegeta at that point, so we all have our own personal explanations.

[hleV]

That Kanzenban ending just makes it seem to me that he actually didn't reach the form. Doesn't he say that he will "someday" defeat him? That makes it seem like there's still a significant gap between them.

No, it just means that Vegeta's gonna fight Goku (and perhaps "show him defeat") some other day, because Goku went away with Oob.

That's my opinion. We don't know anything about Goku or Vegeta at that point, so we all have our own personal explanations.

Oh, alright then.

[Son_Gohan]

1.) Vegeta was a lot weaker than Goku at the Cell games. 2.) Vegeta was limited to Earthly methods of training. 3.) Vegeta realized why Goku was always one step ahead not that he has reached his limits. 4.) Vegeta still wants to "show Kakarotto defeat" in the Kanzenban ending. Vegeta has the knowledge and the drive to achieve ssj3 so IMO he did sometime in the 10 year time frame.

Vegeta being weaker is not the point, it's that his gains in 7 years are considered miniscule in comparison for what was supposedly him putting his best effort in training. He doesn't leave the Majin Buu arc with a divergently benefiting condition that would make such a significant change for him--he's still stuck with the same Earthly methods of training, except he no longer has Trunks as a sparring partner--and you could even argue his mentality had been hindered as a result. Vegeta also witnessed Gohan's SSJ2 transformation in the Cell Games; it doesn't mean he was able to achieve that strength either.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, it just means that Vegeta's gonna fight Goku (and perhaps "show him defeat") some other day, because Goku went away with Oob.

Or, Vegeta will someday surpass Goku & show him defeat. Vegeta wasn't so excited that he would possibly fight Goku in the tournament.
But I guess your interpretation is possible as well. Both of our interpretations can be correct actually. I choose mine, you choose yours. In the end, neither of us is right or wrong.

[TheMightyOzaru]

1.) Vegeta was a lot weaker than Goku at the Cell games. 2.) Vegeta was limited to Earthly methods of training. 3.) Vegeta realized why Goku was always one step ahead not that he has reached his limits. 4.) Vegeta still wants to "show Kakarotto defeat" in the Kanzenban ending. Vegeta has the knowledge and the drive to achieve ssj3 so IMO he did sometime in the 10 year time frame.

Vegeta being weaker is not the point, it's that his gains in 7 years are considered miniscule in comparison for what was supposedly him putting his best effort in training. He doesn't leave the Majin Buu arc with a divergently benefiting condition that would make such a significant change for him--he's still stuck with the same Earthly methods of training, except he no longer has Trunks as a sparring partner--and you could even argue his mentality had been hindered as a result. Vegeta also witnessed Gohan's SSJ2 transformation in the Cell Games; it doesn't mean he was able to achieve that strength either.

There is so much wrong with this logic. How is Vegeta, who started out weaker, supposed to come close to a Goku, whom had sparring partners and superior methods of training in general. Umm Vegeta definitely achieved ssj2 on his own... Majin power ups don't just automatically give you ssj2...

[TheMightyOzaru]

4.) Vegeta still wants to "show Kakarotto defeat" in the Kanzenban ending. Vegeta has the knowledge and the drive to achieve ssj3 so IMO he did sometime in the 10 year time frame.

That Kanzenban ending just makes it seem to me that he actually didn't reach the form. Doesn't he say that he will "someday" defeat him? That makes it seem like there's still a significant gap between them. If he had SSj3, there wouldn't be a significant gap between them, if any.

That isn't so much the case. Let's say Vegeta's base level is 24,000,000,000 and Goku's is 25,000,000,000. Vegeta's ssj3 level would be 9.6 trillion. Goku's is 10 trillion. That's a difference of 400 billion.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

But that's only like a 4% power difference, so it's not a big difference really.

[Son_Gohan]

There is so much wrong with this logic. How is Vegeta, who started out weaker, supposed to come close to a Goku, whom had sparring partners and superior methods of training in general. Umm Vegeta definitely achieved ssj2 on his own... Majin power ups don't just automatically give you ssj2...

Goku's level of achievement just acts as a marker for Vegeta's growth, he may have thought he was stronger than Goku leading up to the tournament, but in reality, his gains were insignificant to the big picture. So saying that Vegeta could achieve SSJ3 simply because he has a long period of time to train isn't well-founded, since the progress he's been shown to make previously didn't reach a magnitude that demonstrates he had the potential to do so. You already acknowledge Goku having superior methods of training in the afterlife, yet you come to the conclusion that Vegeta's Earth-bound training would bring his power high enough to reach SSJ3, when it didn't yield any impressive results the first time? What changes exactly?

Vegeta achieving SSJ2 on his own is not what's in question, it's whether he reached the power Gohan displayed in the Cell Games while in the form. Kid Gohan's power from the Cell Games is still regarded very highly in the Buu arc, it's well above average SSJ2 power.

[Zephyr]

That isn't so much the case. Let's say Vegeta's base level is 24,000,000,000 and Goku's is 25,000,000,000. Vegeta's ssj3 level would be 9.6 trillion. Goku's is 10 trillion. That's a difference of 400 billion.

They were neck-in-neck as SSj2's in the Buu arc. They're both limited to the same quality of training, and they're both obsessed with it, so I don't see any way for Goku to get ahead again.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That isn't so much the case. Let's say Vegeta's base level is 24,000,000,000 and Goku's is 25,000,000,000. Vegeta's ssj3 level would be 9.6 trillion. Goku's is 10 trillion. That's a difference of 400 billion.

They were neck-in-neck as SSj2's in the Buu arc. They're both limited to the same quality of training, and they're both obsessed with it, so I don't see any way for Goku to get ahead again.

Goku trains more effectively. I'd say they are close in power but Goku holds the advantage.

[TheMightyOzaru]

There is so much wrong with this logic. How is Vegeta, who started out weaker, supposed to come close to a Goku, whom had sparring partners and superior methods of training in general. Umm Vegeta definitely achieved ssj2 on his own... Majin power ups don't just automatically give you ssj2...

Goku's level of achievement just acts as a marker for Vegeta's growth, he may have thought he was stronger than Goku leading up to the tournament, but in reality, his gains were insignificant to the big picture. So saying that Vegeta could achieve SSJ3 simply because he has a long period of time to train isn't well-founded, since the progress he's been shown to make previously didn't reach a magnitude that demonstrates he had the potential to do so. You already acknowledge Goku having superior methods of training in the afterlife, yet you come to the conclusion that Vegeta's Earth-bound training would bring his power high enough to reach SSJ3, when it didn't yield any impressive results the first time? What changes exactly?

Vegeta achieving SSJ2 on his own is not what's in question, it's whether he reached the power Gohan displayed in the Cell Games while in the form. Kid Gohan's power from the Cell Games is still regarded very highly in the Buu arc, it's well above average SSJ2 power.

Vegeta wasn't THAT much weaker than Goku before the Majin boost. Vegeta being close to Gohan's ssj2 level at the Cell games is irrelevant. Not only was Gohan 2x stronger than himself, whom had already been much stronger than Vegeta, but he also has a rage boost which made him much stronger than he should have been as a ssj2. The fact that Vegeta is stronger than ssj2 Gohan, regardless of being a little rusty, is still quite impressive for being subject to self training. Give Vegeta 10 more years with his power being equal to Goku's at this point, not to mention he knows of ssj3 so he has something to work for, and he should be able to pull out a ssj3 at some point. It's not about being strong enough, he already is, it's about how to achieve and maintain ssj3.

[Son_Gohan]

Vegeta wasn't THAT much weaker than Goku before the Majin boost. Vegeta being close to Gohan's ssj2 level at the Cell games is irrelevant. Not only was Gohan 2x stronger than himself, whom had already been much stronger than Vegeta, but he also has a rage boost which made him much stronger than he should have been as a ssj2. The fact that Vegeta is stronger than ssj2 Gohan, regardless of being a little rusty, is still quite impressive for being subject to self training. Give Vegeta 10 more years with his power being equal to Goku's at this point, not to mention he knows of ssj3 so he has something to work for, and he should be able to pull out a ssj3 at some point. It's not about being strong enough, he already is, it's about how to achieve and maintain ssj3.

If there wasn't a significant gap it's doubtful he'd resort to being enslaved by Babidi, given his great pride. Personally, I don't think he was even close to SSJ2 Kid Gohan's level since he candidly states that they were stronger than Gohan now in Babidi's ship, but expressed how that could quickly change if he got angry:


Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”


Vegeta still being equal to Goku as a SSJ2 is also debatable. It cannot be ascertained whether Vegeta kept the boost from Babidi's spell or lost it, after dying. It was stated in the Super Exciting Guide that Vegeta had trained his muscles to their limit which resulted in him attaining SSJ2, making SSJ3 even less of a possibility since physical training is pretty much all he's shown to do.

[Saiyan Femme]

He could have, if he near-killed himself with intensive training, which I don't think he did anymore by EoZ. He trained hard of course, but probably not in any possible life-risking ways.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Son_Gohan, Vegeta being stronger than a ssj2 Gohan that has been slacking is already impressive given his training methods. OK... Muscles don't determine a ki limit nor do they prevent Vegeta from figuring out how to go ssj3. Babidi's spell pulled out Vegeta's dormant potential. Unless you are implying Gohan lost his mystic power up when he died, Vegeta kept his just like Gohan kept his, which he did according to Battle of Gods.

[Makaioshin]

I think he could obtain the form but it seems like a waste of time to train for it when he knows of its drawbacks and knows that it is possible to bring out power greater than Super Saiyan 3 without transforming.

That's kind of a Gohan only thing that though... Ssj3 can probably be trained to minimize the drawbacks.

Eh, to me Super Saiyan 3 came off as a Super Saiyan Grade III type progression while the idea that the normal state is the proper state came off as a natural progression.