The general American fanbase really annoys me.

[worldmonsters]

Well the problem does stem from having a different version in the first place. I watched Dragon Ball in English, and I have to say, I can still do so and enjoy it very much. The constant music and dialogue is kind of tiring though and more-so than the first time watching some of the dialogue is very awful. I thought the "hope of the universe" speech was awesome, until I found out who Goku really was. The divide in the fandom is because of two things. In America they usually dub anime and various other things. That in turn leads to the majority of people in America not wanting to read subtitles. Probably the same can be said for Germany, because almost everything is dubbed there too. So in countries where there are dubs, people are less likely to turn to subs in the first place, so eventually when they do they don't like it, because they have to read and watch at the same time on top of it just being different. Try watching a series you know in another language. For example I watched some Doctor Who in Japanse, I couldn't stand it!

The second thing is that because of different cultures and a different interpretation on what are cartoons and who watches them, the end result of a dub will differ from country to country. Anime is so widespread and ingrained in Japanese culture that people accept that anime can be watched at any age. That's why there's so much adult anime and hentai and almost no animated pornography in America. Cartoons are for kids (and anime is just the japanese word for cartoon, so the same counts). At least they were considered for kids. Before that cartoons like The Flintstones and Top Cat and the Looney Tunes were actually made for adults, but because the kids liked them so much, that view changed. Now the view on cartoons is changing again because of anime (and shows like Batman the Animated Series helped). At the time of Dragon Ball Z being on American TV there were two things that didn't work. The show was too violent and too weird to air next to the average American cartoon. Another, a little more minor, thing was that American cartoons were fast. Just look at the Amazing Spiderman cartoon. It tells a whole comic books worth story in 20 minutes. Anime and especially Dragon Ball takes its time, and most American viewers weren't used to that.

With all those things in mind Funimation skipped Dragon Ball and the entire backstory of the main cast entirely (because the first part of Dragon Ball is just way too weird and ecchi to be shown on tv at that time) and went straight to Dragon Ball Z, where all the awesome action was. Then they dumbed it down a bit (especially with the continuing dialogue because they were afraid people would tune out when there was silence, and granted I think most people probably would!), edited out most of the extreme violence and episodes that would've worked in Japanese, but culturally probably wouldn't have worked in America. They also thought the music probably wouldn't work that well, and besides! They were cutting things here and there, editing things, two episodes became one, so how would that have worked technically? So they created a new score. It couldn't be that expensive, but it had to keep the public interested so there had to be something to listen to when there were just short panning shots. And of course they had to change Goku's character to be a little more like Superman, a little more like an American hero than what he was in the Japanese version. All these things weren't done with ill intent, they were done because Funimation was afraid that people would just tune out and ignore it. I bet there are some people in Funimation who understood what Dragon Ball was about, but still, they had people saying "We have to make it good, we have to make it constantly entertaining! People can't tune out, this show was expensive!".

Those various factors created a different Dragon Ball than that people who knew the original show knew. And different is usually not good. I honestly think that if Funimation would've released the show as is, same music, great scripts and translations, openings translated, but still keeping the same melodies, it wouldn't have worked for the average American public. People would've tuned out, probably saying it was "gay". If they had started from episode one and aired it uncut... well it just wouldn't have happened AT ALL. And if it wasn't for Funimation making Dragon Ball as popular as it is, I don't think a lot of things would've gone the same way. We might not even have a new movie if it hadn't been so popular in America.

So of course there are fans of the dub! The dub was MADE to appeal to American audiences and it did! A lot of people, most of them are on this forum, found out about the original either before or after the dub and fell in love with that version, the original version. The fanbase of the dub are people that are more typically American than anything else. It's not their fault, the media and everything around them shapes them, but I think fans of the original series are the people that don't just let things shape them. They search out and find out about things and shape themselves in that way. I'm gonna be very rude and mean by saying... the fans of the American version of Dragon Ball Z are just less open minded about stuff. They might even be considered less intelligent. Even though Dragon Ball is simple, it might be hard for some people to just understand how the original Dragon Ball works, because of Japanese culture and those people just not wanting to understand a different culture. They might not read a lot and therefor refuse to read subtitles (which.. honestly is a little ignorant if you don't even TRY, or at least appreciate that it MIGHT be better). And because of this, objectively speaking, I think on average people that like the Funi dub might just be less intelligent and less ready to find out answers on their own. So the very first thing they hear, they want to latch onto. It might be AF, it might be Hoshi, people will find something first and then believe it. With a series as VAST as Dragon Ball, can you really blame them?

I have to make a disclaimer for this though, because it might feel to some people like I'm insulting them personally. I've tried to write this as delicately and as objectively as I can, and to me the conclusion is that on average, fans of the Funi dub are just less intelligent. If you're fan of the Funi dub, that's fine, at its core its still Dragon Ball, but please try to imagine that the American version has been changed to better suit the American audience. That's not always a good thing, because the original creators didn't intend for his manga and the show to be shown in such a way. If you change the intent and story with the visuals you've got, there is a huge chance that the original intent is lost or watered down and in that way making the product inferior to the original. So please, try to understand that when people who like the Japanese version of Dragon Ball are defending their show, they are defending the original intent of the author and the producers of the show's intent. You are protecting something that is BASED of the original with a different intent. After reading all this, you must be able to see that you now have a divide between something that is pure and original and something that's derived and watered down for your enjoyment. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't like the Funi dub more than the original version, but you should understand that the original version is more pure Dragon Ball.

Also another disclaimer, in no way have I taken Dragon Ball Kai into account, so if you like the better scripts and are a fan of that version, good on you! And props to Funi for redoing the script so well.

[VegettoEX]

This is precisely why I generally stay away from these discussions, and overall try not to even allow them to happen in the first place -- you end up with major misunderstandings that turn into a simple disagreement about what "irony" actually means, and then attempting-to-be-tactful-but-comes-off-incredibly-tactless statements like "less intelligent".

How about we preach what we love and stop complaining about people who aren't going to be a part of your life on a regular basis anyway...?

[rereboy]

So because of your own preference, this magically becomes the truth?

No.

Pretty much everyone I've ever met, talked to or heard about in my country or in countries that have at least as much subtitled shows as shows without subtitles, don't have a problem with subtitles at all. They watch both kinds of shows at a daily basis. They are used to both.

However, a great number of people I've met, talked to or heard about in countries that have few subtitles shows and where shows without subtitles are the vast majority, have a problem with subtitles and quite a few of them argue that they are distracting. In short, they are only used to one kind of show.

That is my point. Most of the time their preference for shows without subtitles is born out of the fact that they are simply not used to it. They are conditioned to prefer shows without subtitles.

[samuraix123]

This is precisely why I generally stay away from these discussions, and overall try not to even allow them to happen in the first place -- you end up with major misunderstandings that turn into a simple disagreement about what "irony" actually means, and then attempting-to-be-tactful-but-comes-off-incredibly-tactless statements like "less intelligent".

How about we preach what we love and stop complaining about people who aren't going to be a part of your life on a regular basis anyway...?

Agreed! arguments only lead to people not liking each other and may even cause problems between them and everyone else and I don't like the idea of that on this site.

[Smochi]

The existence of a friendship or not is irrelevant. If a person had said something or not, my relationship to them does not rewrite the truth.

Sigh... I don't even know how to make this any clearer, but I will try one more time. I was not attributing any characteristics to anybody. I was not talking about anybody. I was not thinking about anybody. My statements were not directed towards anybody, be they friend, relative, or enemy to you, or anyone you don't know. But they certainly had nothing to do with the person/s who told you that Japanese creators don't care for subtitles. In other words, not only was there never any offense intended, there was never anything (offensive or otherwise) directed towards any person. Except for the fact that I happen to disagree with your assessment of irony.

Well the reason you gave for the disagreement is a made-up assessment of my mind set. I never mind debate or disagreement, but I very much mind being told that I actually mean something I don't. If you want to debate, please respond to what not the mindset you want to think I was in when I said it. At that point you my mouth just to fight them.
The reason you using those words was offensive is because I would NEVER call someone worshipper or anything, because attaching a label to someone completely disregards their opinion. I don't even call people elitists until they get rude. Tldr, if you want to debate, debate with what I said, or ask for clarifications. Forcing implications on someone is what starts misunderstandings.

[ABED]

"Those various factors created a different Dragon Ball than that people who knew the original show knew. And different is usually not good. I honestly think that if Funimation would've released the show as is, same music, great scripts and translations, openings translated, but still keeping the same melodies, it wouldn't have worked for the average American public."

The fact that DBZ was popular doesn't mean the tactics that FUNi used worked. That assumes it wouldn't have been popular. As I've said many times before, many of the assumptions that execs in their 30s and 40s make about their audience tend to be wrong or plucked out of thin air. I'm sure DBZ's natural mix of action and comedy crosses all cultural boundaries. Unless you think American children are dumber than every other country that got a faithful adaptation.

The fanbase doesn't annoy me, it's American TV execs.

[Smochi]

How about we preach what we love and stop complaining about people who aren't going to be a part of your life on a regular basis anyway...?

Agreed! arguments only lead to people not liking each other and may even cause problems between them and everyone else and I don't like the idea of that on this site.[/quote]


To be honest, there's not a person on this forum I've met.yet who strikes me as someone who would actually dislike a person for their views on a subject. Grafted, "yet." Knock on wood.

[ABED]

I'm all for a strong debate as long as things don't get personal or insulting. I think it's very possible to have a constructive, interesting discussion where two people strongly disagree while respecting the other person.

I also have to add that DBZ in America was seen as having non-stop action despite its copious amounts of filler. That alone makes the idea that if we didn't add dialog and non-stop music, American children would think nothing was happening and be bored.

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: Smochi

I am sorry you assumed that's what I was doing, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but I wasn't trying to do that. I was simply presenting *my own assessment* of what it would take to make that argument work and presenting my interpretation back to you to see if I was correct in interpreting that. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth or assign you motivations. But in this case, it was the potential of the underlying motive that intrigued me and inspired me to respond in the first place. And I don't see that as an invalid motivation for response. It happens all the time. But please don't take it as a personal attack. If my interpretation is incorrect, just tell me, just like I was trying to tell you that your interpretation of what I'd said was incorrect to try to head off an escalation.

[samuraix123]

I'm curious how the fans of the ''Japanese version only'' (and what I mean by that is, the ones that only watch the Japanese version and no other, so I'm excluding myself) feel about sean schemmel's voice acting for Goku or any other american voice actor in the English version. now I'm not speaking of the lines they deliver but the acting itself. like the way they scream and such. because I think this is amazing! sure it's just screaming but it does sound amazing to me at-least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16nKcRGYLzc

[Smochi]

On a personal level, don't apologize I will argue my butt off in threads, but it takes sooo much for me to actually dislike you. The only time I turn into genuinely pissed Krystal is when someone is openly mean. My biggest problem with using labels in debates in general is this;

1. If you call me a name on one thread, it could invalidate my opinion on EVERY thread. If you called me a duck in here, people may say "Oh don't bother with Smochi's opinion, she's a duck." So boom. My entire Kanzenshuu experience is affected.

2. If you imply I called someone a name, I'm equally affected, because people may think "Omg, don't listen to her, she calls people ducks."

So especially online, when you can't hear my tone, I go into hyper-mode when I'm afraid people think I'm a name-caller/name callee

[worldmonsters]

This is precisely why I generally stay away from these discussions, and overall try not to even allow them to happen in the first place -- you end up with major misunderstandings that turn into a simple disagreement about what "irony" actually means, and then attempting-to-be-tactful-but-comes-off-incredibly-tactless statements like "less intelligent".

How about we preach what we love and stop complaining about people who aren't going to be a part of your life on a regular basis anyway...?

I'm really sorry, I honestly don't want to offend anyone. I tried to look at it objectively and that was my conclusion. The disclaimer isn't much help, but I hoped it at least showed a bit of respect, because I too like the Funi version. I see how "less intelligent" would be considered tactless, I do, and I don't consider myself to be at all more intelligent than others! If I was I'd probably be more tactful. But I think generally and on average this is part of the discussion. But then again, that makes your point all the more valid. These discussion do end up with major misunderstandings and disagreements in the end, because of issues and opinions based around annoyance and ignorance aren't easy to talk about. If I tried to present my argument as politely and objectively as possible and if I've failed, then I have failed Sometimes nobody wins.

I'm curious how the fans of the ''Japanese version only'' (and what I mean by that is, the ones that only watch the Japanese version and no other, so I'm excluding myself) feel about sean schemmel's voice acting for Goku or any other american voice actor in the English version. now I'm not speaking of the lines they deliver but the acting itself. like the way they scream and such. because I think this is amazing! sure it's just screaming but it does sound amazing to me at-least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16nKcRGYLzc

I think Sean Schemmel has grown A LOT since doing those first episodes of Dragon Ball Z and that he's become very good as a voice actor. He was in one of the Pokémon movies which I watched when I was bored (yeah, more fan of the games than of the series :p) and I only noticed at the end that he was doing the bad guy. Unfortunately Sean Schemmel isn't the best Goku. Goku is someone who grew up in the wilderness and has a wilderness type accent in Japanese. So the thing is, he's just miscast, even though he's a good voice actor, especially now. I think Funimation changed how Goku originally was (with the "hope of the universe" speech and everything) and made him more into an American hero without the accent and kind of ignoring his backstory as someone who grew up in the wild. However now that Sean Schemmel is THE voice for Goku and nobody will accept a new Goku with a different accent... yeah, that kind of sucks a bit, but there's nothing we can do about this. In short: Sean Schemmel does a Goku that I like and he's pretty good (the screaming example isn't even one of his best works I think :p he's done even better) but he's just not how Goku should be (according to the original version) which is why Japanese version only fans just can't completely accept him.

Other voice actors... well I actually liked Kai Gohan and Kai Freeza A LOT! Also they toned down the gruffiness a bit so Piccolo and Vegeta sound a bit more natural as well. Also thank god that Recoom sounded just a tad more intelligent, jeez. The way he sounds in the video games is just annoying as hell. Original Vegeta and characters like Zarbon, or Bardock, or Krillin, or Yajirobi and some others too, were pretty good. I always sort of liked Captain Ginyu as well. Those come to mind when I think that they were true to their character I think... I'm also a fan of Kara Edwards, but I just have a soft spot for Videl. Though on hearing her back, she might be a little too sharp in her voice. So really, especially in Kai the voice acting is pretty good. I think even the original had some voices that were pretty good too.

[Hellspawn28]

I remember the old DBZ Funi dubs will have stupid pop culture references. I remember they made a reference to a celebrity Garlic Jr. saga which made no sense since the DBZ world is much different then ours. I don't like pop culture references in general unless if it's done right.

[samuraix123]

I remember the old DBZ Funi dubs will have stupid pop culture references. I remember they made a reference to a celebrity Garlic Jr. saga which made no sense since the DBZ world is much different then ours. I don't like pop culture references in general unless if it's done right.

Are you speaking of the humphrey bogart comment Gohan made to Krillin? I'm not 100% sure if that was said around the Garlic Jr. saga or not but I believe it was. even as a English fan I remember saying ''What?''

[ABED]

Yep, the Bogart comment was in the first episode of the Garlic Jr. Saga. It's right before Gohan meets Maron. Lines like that "mondo cool", "Krillin's in da' house!", "belly blast", "round and round the monkey goes, if he stops, off with his nose", "you dirty crook, you stole your mother's pocket book", etc. didn't appeal to me, and I doubt it appealed to the target audience.

I don't know why they felt they had to add (lame) humor to a show that already had plenty, and it's not like DB's humor would've gone over kids' heads.

I don't care that Schemmel's Goku doesn't sound like a hick, but the directors and writers toned down the Superman stuff. That's not on Schemmel, he can do what he's given. I think he understands and conveys Goku as happy-go-lucky and naive well

[Hellspawn28]

I remember other shows around the same time like Pokemon and Digimon would use pop culture references. For Digimon, I somewhat understand since the human characters live in the same world as we do, but Dragon Ball and Pokemon in a totally different earth then us. Having someone like Elder Kaioshin say "I have that same problem with Mexican food" makes no sense.

[matt0044]

^True, though things like Ninja Murasaki's American flag (oh, the irony) were present in the original version (mostly for gags but still).

I think Sean Schemmel has grown A LOT since doing those first episodes of Dragon Ball Z and that he's become very good as a voice actor. He was in one of the Pokémon movies which I watched when I was bored (yeah, more fan of the games than of the series :p) and I only noticed at the end that he was doing the bad guy. Unfortunately Sean Schemmel isn't the best Goku. Goku is someone who grew up in the wilderness and has a wilderness type accent in Japanese. So the thing is, he's just miscast, even though he's a good voice actor, especially now. I think Funimation changed how Goku originally was (with the "hope of the universe" speech and everything) and made him more into an American hero without the accent and kind of ignoring his backstory as someone who grew up in the wild. However now that Sean Schemmel is THE voice for Goku and nobody will accept a new Goku with a different accent... yeah, that kind of sucks a bit, but there's nothing we can do about this. In short: Sean Schemmel does a Goku that I like and he's pretty good (the screaming example isn't even one of his best works I think :p he's done even better) but he's just not how Goku should be (according to the original version) which is why Japanese version only fans just can't completely accept him.

To be fair, it's was mostly the scripting of the old dub's fault. In Kai, Sean's new dialogue depicts Goku far better and much like the JPN version. Less hickish but none of that "hope of the universe" crap.

[samuraix123]

Everyone keeps throwing around the word ''Hick'' makes me feel bad being from the south Nahhhh just kidding don't bother me a bit

[MarCas92]

As OP, I think I should add that I was introduced to the show in English. I liked it, it was good. As I got older (and I wiser), I decided to watch it in Japanese the first chance I got and was blown away from how unfaithful the American version was. I've never been a fan of dubbing anything foreign. Let's face it, there are somethings you can't get across by simply translating (King Kais jokes). And at the end of the day Anime is art, and art should never be altered for the sake of making it more accessible to people.

[Hellspawn28]

I was introduced to Dragon Ball through a VHS copy in 1997. I didn't start becoming a big fan until 2001 and I was lucky enough to find fan subs on the Internet to download. Sometimes I feel like dubbers when it comes to Japanese shows like to do stupid changes in order to make it sound funny. It's like they are saying "Hey it's Japanese. I think this show is supposed to be silly and stupid". Look at the dubs of Ultraman Tiga and Dynaman for example.