Can someone explain why the Yamamoto thing was a big deal?

[FindKenshi]

Isn't it perfectly normal for musical artists to borrow basic themes from music that they like greatly? That's more of a homage than anything... this is called a "sample" and uncredited samples seem to be a norm in Japan. Just look at the Mother series (Earthbound in America.) In Mother 2 alone, there's several pieces of music "copying" (paying homage) to rock icons and the like.. as detailed at Starmen.net. http://earthboundcentral.com/2013/01/ea ... mple-hunt/

Looks like tons of uncredited copyright musical tunes and such in that game, yet the game came out in America just fine and no lawsuits ever happened. Was this all making a big deal out of nothing?

[TheBlackPaladin]

Well, I think you'll find that whether or not it was a big deal will vary from person to person because that's an opinion-based question. Clearly Toei thought it was a big deal, otherwise they wouldn't have replaced it. I guess they felt that Yamamoto's music went beyond "homage" and into the realm of "plagiarism."

I honestly never noticed it, and even after clips were provided for me to listen to for side-by-side comparison (of Yamamoto's music and the music he allegedly ripped off), I still had trouble pinning it down. Between my inability to hear what was being ripped off and my disappointment with how they mixed Kikuchi's score in Kai, I find myself missing the Yamamoto score a lot. At first I was a tad annoyed by how repetitive it was, but the music always fit the mood, even if it was music I had heard many times before. With the new Kikuchi mix, in addition to repetitive music (I guess they couldn't get a hold of certain pieces to vary up the library), we've had to deal with the additional problem of music that doesn't fit the mood. A classic case of, "You don't know what 'ya got till it's gone."

[FindKenshi]

I think Toei replaced it just because of all the attention it was getting.. attention that I feel was needless. I mean, was any 3rd party even threatening any legal action?

[AgitoZ]

It should also be noted that Earthbound has found some problems in the West due to those pieces. It's one of the reasons many believe it has never gotten a re-release outside of Japan.

So yeah, it's kinda of a big deal when you copy music.

[TheBlackPaladin]

It should also be noted that Earthbound has found some problems in the West due to those pieces. It's one of the reasons many believe it has never gotten a re-release outside of Japan.

Could you elaborate? That sounds intriguing, I didn't know about that.

[FindKenshi]

It should also be noted that Earthbound has found some problems in the West due to those pieces. It's one of the reasons many believe it has never gotten a re-release outside of Japan.

Could you elaborate? That sounds intriguing, I didn't know about that.

http://starmen.net/mother2/legal/

It's all in those 2 articles.

[FindKenshi]

It's also funny that Tomato had this to say in the articles however

Why not a problem in Japan?
Another question I’m seeing often is, “Why is this a problem with EarthBound, but not with the MOTHER games in Japan? Especially with MOTHER 1+2 from a few years back…”

I’m not a lawyer, and I won’t even pretend to know how Japanese law works. But from personal and professional experience, I have noticed that Japanese media companies don’t seem to care very much. Turn to any channel of Japanese TV and within 10 minutes you’ll probably hear foreign music that you know wasn’t legally licensed for use. It’s crazy how much it happens. So it’s not surprising (to me, at least) that these legal issues with EarthBound never really mattered. I get the feeling that’s the reason for NCL’s stance of, “Why do we need to make changes?” It might explain why there’s still a lack of MOTHER 2 on the Japanese Virtual console a year after Smash Bros. Brawl was released.

Yet he's clearly wrong, Toei obviously does care...
The question is: SHOULD Toei have cared?

[Ryuman]

I think people should care if you rip-off the music of others.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Thanks for those articles.

In the mean time, though, Kanzenshuu noted in a podcast episode that the real question behind Yamamoto's supposed plagiarism was, "Did they (as in Toei) not know, or did they note care?"

We'll never know for certain. However, I'm leaning towards them not knowing. If they didn't care, they wouldn't have replaced the musical score at all. They even waited until the last few episodes of Kai aired in Japan to do it, suggesting not only that they thought it was a big deal, but they thought it was a big enough deal to replace the score even though only a few episodes were left.

[MagicBox]

I'm sure the line between "homage" and "theft" is going to vary from person to person, but as mentioned on the main site's "Yamamoto Retrospective" article, certain Kai pieces ("Isshin Ittai," "Arata na Teki no Shutsugen," etc.) were, from beginning to end, note-for-note copies of other composers' work. At a certain point, it stops simply being an "homage."

It's probably because I'm completely indifferent to everything Yamamoto's ever "composed" (from his video game soundtracks to Kai's music), but I think his stuff deserved to be replaced. Why reward someone who steals? And regardless of what Toei actually thinks of the matter, I think they did the right thing (even if they were lazy with the replacement score).

[bleed0range]

Personally I think many people believe it is just okay to take pieces of music because they use terms like "homage" or "sampling" but as a songwriter myself I don't believe those people appreciate the talent and work that comes from creating an interesting arrangement or a catchy melody. If you try to pass something off I created as your work yeah I would be upset. Because you didn't create it. I could write better music all day long if I constantly took pieces from my favorite songs but then what kind if songwriter or composer would I be? The hard part of music is coming up with something catchy, interestingly arranged and memorable. I mean the guy didnt just write stuff in the spirit of songs he enjoyed, he straight up took melodies. And changed a few notes here or there or the key the song was in and then called it a day. I'm sorry but that is stealing, lazy and it is very much a big deal.. So I think TOEI was completely in the right. That guy deserved it, I would never respect him as a songwriter.

[kei17]

To tell you the truth, I asked one of the staff members of Kai (sorry but I can't let out his name) about this and it seems that they just weren't aware of his plagiarism. They first found a few pieces problematic and tried to solve the case by taking them away from the upcoming episodes at the time, but later even more got found to be suspicious, so they had no choice but to replace the whole score.

[FindKenshi]

But were any of the original song writers threatening to sue? I mean I just don't see the realistic threat.. they could argue "no one will buy my album, because they can just buy Dragonball Z: Kai and listen to (parts of) my song there instead!" I mean, I know international copyright laws are what they are.. I ain't no lawyer or nothin' like that tho, so I'm probably missing some big obvious point people were trying to make. I just feel like the whole thing was somewhat of an embarrassment, and it feels like fans aggressively shined a spotlight on the issue and forced Toei to take action, when no one else out there really cared much.

[bleed0range]

But were any of the original song writers threatening to sue? I mean I just don't see the realistic threat.. they could argue "no one will buy my album, because they can just buy Dragonball Z: Kai and listen to (parts of) my song there instead!" I mean, I know international copyright laws are what they are.. I ain't no lawyer or nothin' like that tho, so I'm probably missing some big obvious point people were trying to make. I just feel like the whole thing was somewhat of an embarrassment, and it feels like fans aggressively shined a spotlight on the issue and forced Toei to take action, when no one else out there really cared much.

Just because someone who owned the music he was stealing didn't know he was stealing it doesn't mean it is not a crime. It also doesn't exempt toei from any legal liabilities if someone wanted to sue. There was so much stolen music they would have to pay so much money if sued. It doesn't have to literally mean it will hurt their album sales anyway to be considered a threat... stealing is stealing. Lastly it's the principal of the thing... you shouldn't try to pass off other people's work as your own or use it without permission. If you're an artist who creates music, it makes it hard for anyone to respect your work and makes it difficult to get a job.

[FindKenshi]

I'm pretty sure super computers have calculated that something staggering like 86% of all unique tunes and rhythms that possibly can be created by humanity are used up, and eventually it will be impossible to write any song that doesn't burrow at least 3 notes from another already existing song.

[bleed0range]

I'm pretty sure super computers have calculated that something staggering like 86% of all unique tunes and rhythms that possibly can be created by humanity are used up, and eventually it will be impossible to write any song that doesn't burrow at least 3 notes from another already existing song.

There is a difference between using the chord progression G, C, D, E ... and exactly copying a piece of music or a melody to the point where it is obvious it was stolen. The frequency with which he did it proves he did it on purpose. If you cannot understand that then I don't think you appreciate the gravity of the situation. I don't know what to tell ya. Also bull on that... there is an infinite number of variations to keep music original and interesting. No one will ever truly use up all the possibilities in our lifetime.

[kei17]

How do you feel if Dragon Ball were found to be horribly unoriginal that it's rather a patchwork of things from other series and artists? I'm sure I'd stop being a fan. And it is why I'm no longer a Jojo fan.

[FindKenshi]

How do you feel if Dragon Ball were found to be horribly unoriginal that it's rather a patchwork of things from other series and artists? I'm sure I'd stop being a fan. And it is why I'm no longer a Jojo fan.

It already is.. the story started as a retelling of Journey to the west.. every character was based off another character. It didn't stop me from liking it, it enhanced my fandom, because as kids we all made our "own" stories based off other stories.. Toriyama did the same, but created something better.

[TheRed259]

@ kei17 I guess that's the reason why DragonBall Z Kai Episode 95 ( Yamamoto ) had two musicless scenes ?
( Cell returns , Vegeta avenges Trunks )

[kei17]

How do you feel if Dragon Ball were found to be horribly unoriginal that it's rather a patchwork of things from other series and artists? I'm sure I'd stop being a fan. And it is why I'm no longer a Jojo fan.

It already is.. the story started as a retelling of Journey to the west..

Very famous classical writings like Journey to the west don't count. What Yamamoto did is something like Toriyama introducing Wolverine as Goku in his manga, which is a real problem.