Goku after drinking the Super God Water = Oozaru Goku?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When Goku drank the Super God Water, Oozaru appeared behind him for a moment after getting the power-up. Same thing happened when he killed Piccolo Daimao. The Super God Water is said to bring forth the hidden power of the warrior (if he has any). Goku's hidden power at that point was Oozaru.
Could this mean that once Goku drank the Super God Water, his base form became equal with his Oozaru form (meaning that he got a x10 power-up)? Does any of the guidebooks get into that?

[Toadster]

No, because his PL would have been above 1,000 which we know isn't the case. It's only used for dramatic effect.

[Kamiccolo9]

His power level after drinking the water was 260. Since he was way past 26 before drinking it, there's no way it was the same increase as transforming.

[matt0044]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMNuDKd5XfM

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

When Goku drank the Super God Water, Oozaru appeared behind him for a moment after getting the power-up. Same thing happened when he killed Piccolo Daimao. The Super God Water is said to bring forth the hidden power of the warrior (if he has any). Goku's hidden power at that point was Oozaru.
Could this mean that once Goku drank the Super God Water, his base form became equal with his Oozaru form (meaning that he got a x10 power-up)? Does any of the guidebooks get into that?

I've honestly wondered the same thing myself and have constructed a power level list of where the Dragonball characters are only slightly around Gokuu's power level of 10 and above for awhile until it gets to King Piccolo and Gokuu drinks the Holy Water. It makes sense to me! It's not like it's ever contradicted later on in the manga.

[Saiga]

It'd be pretty cool if this was the case, but as we know it doesn't really fit with the series.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

It'd be pretty cool if this was the case, but as we know it doesn't really fit with the series.

Why's that?

[FindKenshi]

Well since Toriyama made the story up as he went along, and his idea of how strong the characters were would change while he was writing.. sure. Why not? I mean, "it doesn't fit with info we know" isn't a great excuse... since this was before battle power numbers were in the story yet.. he drew Oozaru behind Goku in this scene, so I'm sure that's what it means. So the Super Holy Water did make him as strong as his Oozaru self, up until Raditz entered the story, at which point it no longer did anymore because the numbers stopped adding up. Or to put it another way, he didn't care or remember enough to make it make sense while writing it. Again, reference interview where he says he changed their strengths as he wrote, and then reference more interviews where he says he forgot about everything... -_- guess this is going to be my snarky new attitude about in universe discussion until I get over my disappointment at The Master's forgetfulness.

[Saiga]

It'd be pretty cool if this was the case, but as we know it doesn't really fit with the series.

Why's that?

Goku going from 180 to 260 is not a x10 boost.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Goku going from 180 to 260 is not a x10 boost.

There was never a scouter reading in manga of Gokuu being 180 before drinking it, though.

[Saiga]

Goku going from 180 to 260 is not a x10 boost.

There was never a scouter reading in manga of Gokuu being 180 before drinking it, though.

The 180 and 260 both come from WJ during the manga's run, though (well, I think only Roshi had the 180 but we know Goku was just as strong).

[FindKenshi]

Goku going from 180 to 260 is not a x10 boost.

There was never a scouter reading in manga of Gokuu being 180 before drinking it, though.

The 180 and 260 both come from WJ during the manga's run, though (well, I think only Roshi had the 180 but we know Goku was just as strong).

They still came long after that particular chapter... it was retroactively added into the story after the fact, and quite frankly the numbers do not add up in any way shape or form. It's pointless to try to use these numbers to rationalize anything, because they simply aren't made up by Toriyama, and even if they were, that alone still wouldn't mean much, since he forgot who Tao Paipai even was by then.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

The 180 and 260 both come from WJ during the manga's run, though (well, I think only Roshi had the 180 but we know Goku was just as strong).

If you're referring to Bulma's scouter reading in the Saiya-Jin Saga, it can be said he probably trained after all those years after the tournaments; meanwhile, Gokuu is already in the late hundreds, early 1,000s in Raditz/ early Saiya-Jin Arc. I think it fits. Otherwise, I don't take those levels seriously and there's nothing stated in the manga to back them up.

[Saiga]

No, I'm talking about the 180 reading from the BP spread from WJ.

And I don't buy it the retroactive stuff either, sounds like you're way too bitter about his forgetfulness. There's a difference between forgetting stuff now and forgetting stuff that were only 2 story arcs apart.

[Pantalones]

A 10x increase could only work if the Dragonball levels went on a different scale from the DBZ levels. I think the general idea was just "Oozaru represents his hidden power," so when he draws out more of his hidden power you get Oozaru symbolism showing up, since previously that was the only way for him to draw out such huge amounts of power in such a short time. Didn't they show some Oozaru bits during the SSj3 transformation later on, too? I'm guessing they were going for the same idea with that one.

Of course... since there were no numerical "power levels" in Dragonball, Dragonball being on a different scale than Freeza's scouters would honestly make more sense than the "going back later" levels we eventually got that tried to cram several large power gaps into the 100-300 range. But the official levels still do mostly work, at least once real fighting starts happening (I'm still suspicious of how accurate the power level of 10 for little Goku is, considering that it leaves hardly any room for Mr. Satan to be significantly beyond an ordinary human but still significantly below the stuff Goku showed off way back in the earliest chapters... I've always gone with something like 20 or 25 for kid Goku instead, or at least I would if I had the time and interest to actually bother to put together a power level list of my own. XD)

[Herms]

Goku becoming x10 stronger would fit the story pretty well if we ignore the BP numbers eventually assigned to the characters for that story arc. Old Piccolo totally outclasses Goku without even using half his power, then he's supposed to become way stronger once he regains his youth, but after drinking the Super God Water Goku is at least as strong as Piccolo, maybe stronger. So if Goku starts out at (say) a 100, old Piccolo could be maybe 450, young Piccolo 900, and Goku at the end 1,000.

Of course, we only get the "Oozaru makes your BP x10 higher" rule long after it's established that Kame-sennin's BP is 139 and Goku/Piccolo (now both way stronger than during the Daimao arc) are a little over 400, maybe over 1,000 if you count their special attacks. Even if you ignore the extra guidebook BPs for Goku at the 22nd TB and against Piccolo Daimao, I think's it's pretty much impossible to reconcile the BPs in the series with the idea that kid Goku's BP increased x10 back then. Not really surprising; Toriyama wasn't thinking in terms of scouter numbers when doing the Piccolo arc, and wasn't thinking of the Piccolo arc when writing the Saiyan arc.

Hey, maybe Goku's BP really does become x10 higher, but only when the image of the Ozaru appears behind him for that final attack? Ala the Makankosappo and whatnot? Eh, maybe not.

People mess this up a lot, but the deadly poison Goku drinks to unlock his dormant power is the "Super God Water" (Chou-Shin-Sui; alternatively "Super Divine Water" or variations thereof). The "Super Holy Water" (Chou-Sei-Sui) is the fake power-up item Goku initially takes from Karin, back when fighting Tao Pai Pai. It's nothing but regular rainwater, and it's actually the process of getting the water by climbing the tower and chasing Karin around that makes you stronger. So basically, the Holy Water is a fake version of the God Water.

[Saiga]

People mess this up a lot, but the deadly poison Goku drinks to unlock his dormant power is the "Super God Water" (Chou-Shin-Sui; alternatively "Super Divine Water" or variations thereof). The "Super Holy Water" (Chou-Sei-Sui) is the fake power-up item Goku initially takes from Karin, back when fighting Tao Pai Pai. It's nothing but regular rainwater, and it's actually the process of getting the water by climbing the tower and chasing Karin around that makes you stronger. So basically, the Holy Water is a fake version of the God Water.

Thanks for clearing up the names of each of them, I didn't know what was correct.

[Herms]

I guess technically you can justifiably translate Chou-shin-sui as "Super Holy Water"; it's the water of the gods, and being "of the gods" isn't too far away from the idea of being holy. It's just a bad choice in this context because there's the other, different item that's already called "Super Holy Water", and you don't want to call them the same thing, if for no other reason than there's that scene where Karin refers to them both and explains their differences.

[Saiga]

I guess technically you can justifiably translate Chou-shin-sui as "Super Holy Water"; it the water of the gods, and being "of the gods" isn't too far away from the idea of being holy. It's just a bad choice in this context because there's the other, different item that's already called "Super Holy Water", and you don't want to call them the same thing, if for no other reason than there's that scene where Karin refers to them both and explains their differences.

Well, if Karin refers to them as different things, and they have different Japanese names, I don't think it should be translated as the same thing at all.

[Herms]

Yeah, in the context of DB it's no good. But in and of itself, it's not inherently wrong to translate Chou-shin-sui as "Super Holy Water". Maybe a little liberal, but not too far removed from "Super God/Divine Water". But then Chou-sei-sui pretty directly translates as " Super Holy Water", and in the context of DB you've got to distinguish between the two. I guess you could go with "Super Sacred Water" for Chou-sei-sui and "Super Holy Water" for Chou-shin-sei, but this is practically begging people to mix them up. They're admittedly easy to confuse under the best of circumstances, but no reason to add to the problem.