How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Amuro Ray]

So far we have established nothing - ok. I'll keep checking back.

[Darkprince410]

So far we have established nothing - ok. I'll keep checking back.

I left a decently long post on the previous page addressing some of the points you keep bringing up.

[VegettoEX]

So far we have established nothing - ok. I'll keep checking back.

Here's the deal.

You don't seem to want to have a conversation. You've come in and literally said -- far more often than not -- that you're sure you're correct, and beyond that you don't consider the people you're talking with your peers, all in very short, abrasive posts.

It makes me wonder what you're looking to get out of it. Furthermore, it makes me wonder why you're even here in the first place.

Near as I can tell, it's to have your own opinions parroted back at you. If that's the case, why do you need us? Why here, at Kanzenshuu, specifically? What made you want to join the community, assess the other conversations going on, and partake in them the way you're partaking in them? You already have your own evidence which you've used to convince yourself of whatever answers you need. Isn't your goal accomplished?

I can't be any more clear on this: if you're not willing to have polite conversations, accept what others bring to the table, and not make short/snide posts when things are not parroted back at you... well, this is not the community for you.

You're more than welcome to bring convincing/contrary evidence, points, and suggestions to the table. We welcome it. What we, and specifically I, do not welcome is the tone you bring, and along with it the incredibly demeaning posts to your fellow fans -- yes, your peers -- from all around the globe that have come together do discuss an awesome little show about punching monkeys that everyone enjoys.

You will have strikes placed against your account from here on out by the moderation team for posts that do not follow the community guidelines that you agreed to (twice) prior to registration. I absolutely hate having to come to this, and especially having to say it this way in light of everything I just finished saying about being polite and understanding, but I'm not going to repeat myself again.

[dbzfan7]

So far we have established nothing - ok. I'll keep checking back.

Here's the deal.

You don't seem to want to have a conversation. You've come in and literally said -- far more often than not -- that you're sure you're correct, and beyond that you don't consider the people you're talking with your peers, all in very short, abrasive posts.

It makes me wonder what you're looking to get out of it. Furthermore, it makes me wonder why you're even here in the first place.

Near as I can tell, it's to have your own opinions parroted back at you. If that's the case, why do you need us? Why here, at Kanzenshuu, specifically? What made you want to join the community, assess the other conversations going on, and partake in them the way you're partaking in them? You already have your own evidence which you've used to convince yourself of whatever answers you need. Isn't your goal accomplished?

I can't be any more clear on this: if you're not willing to have polite conversations, accept what others bring to the table, and not make short/snide posts when things are not parroted back at you... well, this is not the community for you.

You're more than welcome to bring convincing/contrary evidence, points, and suggestions to the table. We welcome it. What we, and specifically I, do not welcome is the tone you bring, and along with it the incredibly demeaning posts to your fellow fans -- yes, your peers -- from all around the globe that have come together do discuss an awesome little show about punching monkeys that everyone enjoys.

You will have strikes placed against your account from here on out by the moderation team for posts that do not follow the community guidelines that you agreed to (twice) prior to registration. I absolutely hate having to come to this, and especially having to say it this way in light of everything I just finished saying about being polite and understanding, but I'm not going to repeat myself again.

You also said you don't want any Bootleg scans, which is what he uses.

[Amuro Ray]

So far we have established nothing - ok. I'll keep checking back.

Here's the deal.

You don't seem to want to have a conversation. You've come in and literally said -- far more often than not -- that you're sure you're correct, and beyond that you don't consider the people you're talking with your peers, all in very short, abrasive posts.

Who here doesn't believe they are correct with the statements they make? Even now, you feel your post and attitude against me are justifiable, you feel this is the correct course of action. If you aren’t honest about your feelings, it’s that lying? And yes I do have a difficult time respecting people who cannot formulate a coherent arguement to support their point, and instead make sinde remarks that are largely ignored by the staff.

It makes me wonder what you're looking to get out of it. Furthermore, it makes me wonder why you're even here in the first place.

A healthy debate - maybe someone can change my mind, so far people have been doing a terrible.
Near as I can tell, it's to have your own opinions parroted back at you. If that's the case, why do you need us? Why here, at Kanzenshuu, specifically? What made you want to join the community, assess the other conversations going on, and partake in them the way you're partaking in them? You already have your own evidence which you've used to convince yourself of whatever answers you need. Isn't your goal accomplished?

I can't be any more clear on this: if you're not willing to have polite conversations, accept what others bring to the table, and not make short/snide posts when things are not parroted back at you... well, this is not the community for you.

You're more than welcome to bring convincing/contrary evidence, points, and suggestions to the table. We welcome it. What we, and specifically I, do not welcome is the tone you bring, and along with it the incredibly demeaning posts to your fellow fans -- yes, your peers -- from all around the globe that have come together do discuss an awesome little show about punching monkeys that everyone enjoys.

You will have strikes placed against your account from here on out by the moderation team for posts that do not follow the community guidelines that you agreed to (twice) prior to registration. I absolutely hate having to come to this, and especially having to say it this way in light of everything I just finished saying about being polite and understanding, but I'm not going to repeat myself again.

Who doesn't like being right? Why am I being singled out - because of my “condescending” attitude towards people who you consider to be my peers? Perhaps the discussion would be more civil if their attitudes changed as well.

[Draken]

What are you trying to say? I've been trying to let you know that there are both sides to an argument, and this is completely unanswerable and could be debated for eternity, and acknowledge you may be correct. Your "condescending" attitude is continuing to choose to be blind to others' arguments, and shoving your opinions down other peoples' throats. Furthermore, you absolutely insist you are correct and anything we, your peers say, to be utter garbage and contradicted by everything you and your perfect evidence show. As I've said before, you refuse to even show the slightest indication that there are other opinions out there, and yours may not always be correct. Continually using lines such as "nothing else" besides what you say, or "there is no evidence to prove" (I paraphrase) anything besides what you say, is the condescending attitude VegettoEX is referring to I assume.

[Hitiro]

Who doesn't like being right? Why am I being singled out - because of my “condescending” attitude towards people who you consider to be my peers? Perhaps the discussion would be more civil if their attitudes changed as well.

I don't want to sound like I'm picking on you, so I apologise in advance if I sound like I am. But the other members attitudes don't seem all that bad in comparison to yours. It's not just your attitude but also your unwillingness to accept facts that are presented to you. For instance, we have already established that Goku says after they free'd Gohan and the others that Evil Boo is still far too powerful for them to handle. In addition Goku also says after South Kaioshin Boo reverts to Pure Boo that now they can manage something. Yet I've seen you try to twist at least one of these facts to argue your point. I believe you said that Goku has lied about not being able to beat someone before. Where this can be the case in this instance, all we know for a fact is that Goku initially said there is no way he could beat Evil Boo. So unless we have any clarification about him being able to beat Evil Boo later on like we did with Fat Boo, which we don't, then the most weighted decision we can make is:

R.K. Gohan > Evil Boo > SSJ3 Goku > Pure Boo

It is all well and good if you don't think this is true, that is up to your own interpretation. But the way you came across to me is "Goku must be lying about not being able to beat Evil Boo, because I think SSJ3 Goku > Evil Boo." This isn't a good attitude to have, it's condescending and a bit arrogant on your part. Perhaps you didn't mean for it to come across this way but this is what I feel, in my opinion, you read like. If you are genuinely considering what we are saying then I apologise, but perhaps you need to make it more vocal that you don't think your own opinion is god's law. I'd suggest you take some time before posting and try to word your responses carefully. Part of the problem being in this community, much like many other franchises, is everyone has their opinion so of course there is going to be some clashes. But its really up to us to try and keep it civilised. That isn't to say that you're the only one with a slightly bad attitude. I've seen some responses to your own which could be seen as pushing the line. Perhaps in response to your own attitude? I don't mind debating about Gohan's strength in comparison to Goku or Evil Boo's strength in comparison to Pure Boo's. And we should try to keep it to a minimum and try to keep on topic. Though if you're attitude is genuinely what I'm feeling from it then I suggest you try to keep an open mind. Nobodies opinion should be considered higher than anybody else's. And subsequently you can't just go around thinking your opinion is correct, especially on this subject which can have multiple perspectives.

[Saiga]

That statement urks me as it would mean Trunks is stronger if Gohan and Goten were equal.

I feel the same way. While I don't think it's impossible for Goten to be as strong, it just seems weird for Trunks to be stronger. But I don't think the manga implies that they're equal anyway, what with Gohan blocking all his hits without retaliating.

[dbzfan7]

That statement urks me as it would mean Trunks is stronger if Gohan and Goten were equal.

I feel the same way. While I don't think it's impossible for Goten to be as strong, it just seems weird for Trunks to be stronger. But I don't think the manga implies that they're equal anyway, what with Gohan blocking all his hits without retaliating.

Exactly. I think Goten is around 3x-5x weaker then Gohan (yes I changed my mind, it happens a lot). Gohan was obviously holding back. That way he is around Gohan(when he slacked off) but still not totally out classed.

[Saiga]

Exactly. I think Goten is around 3x-5x weaker then Gohan (yes I changed my mind, it happens a lot). Gohan was obviously holding back. That way he is around Gohan(when he slacked off) but still not totally out classed.

Personally, I think Goten is a little over half of Gohan. I think that's a sizeable enough gap.

[dbzfan7]

Exactly. I think Goten is around 3x-5x weaker then Gohan (yes I changed my mind, it happens a lot). Gohan was obviously holding back. That way he is around Gohan(when he slacked off) but still not totally out classed.

Personally, I think Goten is a little over half of Gohan. I think that's a sizeable enough gap.

Maybe I underestimate him. I still think he needs to be at least around 3x under Gohan. maybe I would settle for Gohan being Twice as strong as Goten, but Goten being that strong seems weird. I also include Gohan's recent lack of training as a reason why Goten did so well.

[Saiga]

Maybe I underestimate him. I still think he needs to be at least around 3x under Gohan. maybe I would settle for Gohan being Twice as strong as Goten, but Goten being that strong seems weird. I also include Gohan's recent lack of training as a reason why Goten did so well.

Even if Gohan is rusty, I don't think he'd even break a sweat if his opponent was 1/3 of his strength. Just look at what Raditz did to Goku and Piccolo, after all. I know gaps aren't always consistent but I think the stark difference here is important.

Gohan was holding back, sure, but only because he wasn't on the offensive and all. He still had to put some effort into blocking those hits, and while he's got enough of an advantage to block all those hits, it's not easy.

Even though he's rusty he should still be more skilled than Goten.

[dbzfan7]

Maybe I underestimate him. I still think he needs to be at least around 3x under Gohan. maybe I would settle for Gohan being Twice as strong as Goten, but Goten being that strong seems weird. I also include Gohan's recent lack of training as a reason why Goten did so well.

Even if Gohan is rusty, I don't think he'd even break a sweat if his opponent was 1/3 of his strength. Just look at what Raditz did to Goku and Piccolo, after all. I know gaps aren't always consistent but I think the stark difference here is important.

Gohan was holding back, sure, but only because he wasn't on the offensive and all. He still had to put some effort into blocking those hits, and while he's got enough of an advantage to block all those hits, it's not easy.

Even though he's rusty he should still be more skilled than Goten.

Like I said its probably me underestimating Goten. I forgot a lot about him as Gotenks made a bigger impact. Maybe I shouldn't underestimate him since he is part of the Saiyan prodigy duo. I think Gohan being 2x stronger fits with him holding back and being rusty. Then again I could be underestimating Goten.

[Bussani]

You could assume he was lying because he is later seen fighting a Stronger form of Buu and holding his own.

But that's circular logic. "Goku was lying because he later fights Pure Buu, who is stronger; Pure Buu is stronger because Goku lied."

I wish you and others like you would acknowledge that you could possibly be wrong

That's funny--I thought I did just that:

At the end of the day, however, it all depends on how you interpret these lines. I can't say for sure that one interpretation is right and another is wrong. All I have is an opinion, just like everyone else.

Considering how many comments, and implications would have to be ignored for they story to be correct in the way you and others have presented is not only confusing, it just doesn't make sense.

I could say the same about your interpretation of the story, which just goes to show how differently two people can interpret the same thing--which was the point I was trying to make in that previous post.

[alakazam^]

Goku says that Vegeta's plan was to have Gohan, Gotenks and the others revived and have them fight. Vegeta says that's not it. <- The way this is worded doesn't really specify that he needed both to go there and fight, either was fine.

Goku : “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”

and =/= or
they =/= one
to fight =/= to defeat
The way it's worded highly implies both are required to manage something against Boo.

I'm going by the source text and it isn't specific enough. The way I read it, Goku doesn't say they are required to fight and it's obvious they aren't. Goku isn't stronger than any of them (especially when he can't use SSJ3) and he is the one to defeat Boo.

Vegeta's plan is not about swapping an easy victory for a risky solution. Gohan couldn't beat Pure Boo, otherwise Goku would have found Vegeta's idea much more silly and wouldn't have agreed.

I found it silly. I think we all agree the Genki-dama isn't that great of a technique. Sure, it's special and got the job done but up until then it hadn't worked. Vegeta couldn't beat Boo but Goku was a good enough match for him, the problem was Boo's regeneration, stamina and unpredicatbility. Even if you think Gohan or Gotenks couldn't defeat Boo, it's ludicrous to think they both couldn't. But no, they settled on having the Earthlings take responsability just because.

Goku : “And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”

In Goku's opinion, fighting is a good solution. That's why he fought against Pure Boo after all. He didn't think he could be absorbed.
Moreover, as you can see in the second sentence, Goku says that without training, nobody would be able to win against Pure Boo one-on-one. This means Pure Boo was stronger than Evil Boo, otherwise Gohan alone could have defeated him easily for sure.

He was talking about himself and Vegeta.

[Pan-Pan]

I'm going by the source text and it isn't specific enough. The way I read it, Goku doesn't say they are required to fight and it's obvious they aren't.

I've already checked several translations and in each case, the words "and", "they", and "fight" are here and the same.
Again, Goku isn't suggesting Gotenks or Gohan come to defeat Boo. He's suggesting both come fighting. That is to say they haven't much chance of winning.
In contrast to :

Goku (when talking to Boocolo) : Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…

Do you see the difference ? This is not my personal interpretation, this is what Goku is implying.

I found it silly. I think we all agree the Genki-dama isn't that great of a technique. Sure, it's special and got the job done but up until then it hadn't worked.

Yes, the Genkidama was a high-risk technique, but they've still chosen it. That's why bringing Gotenks and Gohan wasn't an easy way out.

But no, they settled on having the Earthlings take responsability just because.

just because the other idea (bringing Gotenks and Gohan) was as much risky, and probably wouldn't have worked anyway.

He was talking about himself and Vegeta.

I don't think so. Obviously, he was answering to Vegeta's line :

What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again !? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world !

"The end of the world"... He's not only talking about his personal death. He's saying that everyone would be defeated. So it includes Gohan, of course.
Thus, Goku is talking about the solutions they have. And apparently, the only solution is to train and then fight.
All this suggests that Gohan isn't strong enough to save the world by defeating Pure Boo.

[Hitiro]

I've already checked several translations and in each case, the words "and", "they", and "fight" are here and the same.
Again, Goku isn't suggesting Gotenks or Gohan come to defeat Boo. He's suggesting both come fighting. That is to say they haven't much chance of winning.

Actually the 'and' isn't suggesting they both come to fight. Its suggesting that both will be brought back to life.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Both will be resurrected, so either of them can fight. It wouldn't make much sense if Goku said "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan or Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Considering the wish will bring back both. Not one or the other. "They can fight" doesn't necessarily mean both of them will fight together either. It just means that they will be brought back to life so they can, or could, fight. Had it been "so they can fight together." Then fair enough. But that's not what is said.

In contrast to:

Goku (when talking to Boocolo) : Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…

Do you see the difference ? This is not my personal interpretation, this is what Goku is implying.

Goku is implying that Gohan could now beat Boo by himself, rather than needing Goku's help through fusion or some other method. As opposed to him needing Goku's help against Bootenks. While I understand you're viewpoint its still pretty much open to interpretation.

What isn't open to interpretation is Goku's point after they removed Gohan, the kids and Piccolo from Evil Boo. He specifically states that they would definitely be done in by Evil Boo:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

So we know Goku or Vegeta can't win against Evil Boo. Then we get from him later:

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

So Gohan can beat Evil Boo by himself which SSJ3 Goku couldn't but Gohan would need to work with Gotenks to beat Pure Boo when Goku says he could beat Pure Boo in SSJ3? That doesn't make much sense. What clearly makes sense is that if SSJ3 Goku can't beat Evil Boo and Gohan can by himself then if SSJ3 Goku can beat Pure Boo logic must dictate that Gohan could also beat Pure Boo by himself.

Yes, the Genkidama was a high-risk technique, but they've still chosen it. That's why bringing Gotenks and Gohan wasn't an easy way out.

Bringing Gotenks and Gohan would have been the easy way out. That is why Goku suggested it first. Then Vegeta said that the Earthlings would save themselves for a change.

just because the other idea (bringing Gotenks and Gohan) was as much risky, and probably wouldn't have worked anyway.

Again, its a much less risky strategy. But it wouldn't have been much of an ending to the final battle if they brought those two, or even one of them. This is out of universe, I'm sorry, but the simple explanation is the Genki Dama was chosen to make the final battle as risky as it could be for the sake of story telling. And again, who's saying they'd bring both Gohan and Gotenks to fight? The text clearly says that both of them would be brought back to life. So they can fight. It doesn't mean that both would be needed for the job. It's simply "Gohan and Gotenks will be brought back to life" because they would be alive "they can fight."

What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again !? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world !

"The end of the world"... He's not only talking about his personal death. He's saying that everyone would be defeated. So it includes Gohan, of course.
Thus, Goku is talking about the solutions they have. And apparently, the only solution is to train and then fight.
All this suggests that Gohan isn't strong enough to save the world by defeating Pure Boo.

"The end of the world" simply means the end of the world. You are reading too much into it. Just because it would be "the end of the world" doesn't mean Gohan or Gotenks couldn't beat Pure Boo. This would be in regard to Pure Boo just being created and instantly destroying the Earth like he did the last time. Goku could have beaten Pure Boo, but the world was still destroyed. And Goku would have been destroyed too if Goku hadn't gotten off the planet. How could Gohan or Gotenks win if Pure Boo just decided to destroy the Earth rather than fight them like he did with Vegeta and Goku? If Pure Boo didn't just decide on blowing up Earth then it would be a different matter. But the most likely outcome would be him blowing up the Earth. There isn't much Gohan or Gotenks could do about that. Now is there?

[The Monkey King]

I think Gohan and Gotenks stomping the crap out of Kid Buu while Vegeta and Goku watched in pride could've made for a good ending as their children proved they have surpassed them and can save the universe.

[Hitiro]

I think Gohan and Gotenks stomping the crap out of Kid Buu while Vegeta and Goku watched in pride could've made for a good ending as their children proved they have surpassed them and can save the universe.

Eh, where would the "suspense" be if it were them or even one of them? I know we can expect them to win somehow as I don't believe in any manga or anime the bad guy wins. Apart from maybe some of Death Note. But there has to be something to make us say "how will this play out?" If they chucked Gohan and/or Gotenks into the equation it pretty much becomes "how fast will this be over?" Besides, I kind of liked the idea that the Earthlings were paying back all of the debt they owe Goku for him saving the Earth numerous times. I also think its great that Toriyama made the story come full circle with using the dragonballs, which started the story and is now helping to finish it, in the final battle.

[Insertclevername]

I think Gohan and Gotenks stomping the crap out of Kid Buu while Vegeta and Goku watched in pride could've made for a good ending as their children proved they have surpassed them and can save the universe.

I'd make for a funny ending, I'll give you that.