How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Pan-Pan]

Both will be resurrected, so either of them can fight. It wouldn't make much sense if Goku said "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan or Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Considering the wish will bring back both. Not one or the other. "They can fight" doesn't necessarily mean both of them will fight together either. It just means that they will be brought back to life so they can, or could, fight. Had it been "so they can fight together." Then fair enough. But that's not what is said.

Oh, yes. You're right. Sorry, I went with "they come to fight" (how did I imagine that ?), but it's "they can fight". My mistake.
But that's not important. What really matters is the verb to fight.

Goku is implying that Gohan could now beat Boo by himself, rather than needing Goku's help through fusion or some other method. As opposed to him needing Goku's help against Bootenks.

Here again, you need to focus on the verb used. Here we have "beat" instead of "fight".
When Goku uses "to beat", he implies high chance of victory.
When Goku uses "to fight", he implies, well, an unknown outcome.

What isn't open to interpretation is Goku's point after they removed Gohan, the kids and Piccolo from Evil Boo. He specifically states that they would definitely be done in by Evil Boo

Yes, he said that. I guess he intentionally forgot his SSJ 3 and put himself at the same level as Vegeta. Thus, he used the pronoun "we" as a whole. In the same way, he also said this :

Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

Yet we see him later talk about how he could have defeated this fat Boo.
So, I would assume he lied on purpose in both cases.
Why would he lie inside Boo's body ? If you ask me, I'd say that...in my opinion...
He preferred to try the fusion because he was keeping SSJ 3 as a last resort. He was waiting until he got no choice but to use it. He thought it would be easier if they fused. Especially when considering that he had to protect the children and his friends around.

Bringing Gotenks and Gohan would have been the easy way out. That is why Goku suggested it first. Then Vegeta said that the Earthlings would save themselves for a change.

Goku suggested it first because it was his only idea. It would be a desperate attempt, someway. It makes no sense to ignore an easy way to defeat Boo just because they prefer to let the Earthlings do the job.

Again, its a much less risky strategy. But it wouldn't have been much of an ending to the final battle if they brought those two, or even one of them. This is out of universe, I'm sorry, but the simple explanation is the Genki Dama was chosen to make the final battle as risky as it could be for the sake of story telling.

If that was the case, Toriyama would have found a way to not make it possible to bring back Gohan and Gotenks. Because, out of universe, it makes the final battle risky only in an anticlimatic way. As if, in another story, the main character could kill the main villain with a gun but he willingly chooses to drop his weapon, for no reason. That kills the drama and there is no tension. I watched a movie like this a few days ago. I didn't get involved in the story anymore when I was like "Ok, this character is just fucking dumb".

"The end of the world" simply means the end of the world. You are reading too much into it. Just because it would be "the end of the world" doesn't mean Gohan or Gotenks couldn't beat Pure Boo. This would be in regard to Pure Boo just being created and instantly destroying the Earth like he did the last time.

Yeah, that's possible. But in Goku's opinion, it wouldn't mean the end of the world because they will train in order to be strong enough to defeat Boo, not because Gohan already was. That's why I think he wasn't.

[Draken]

If that was the case, Toriyama would have found a way to not make it possible to bring back Gohan and Gotenks. Because, out of universe, it makes the final battle risky only in an anticlimatic way. As if, in another story, the main character could kill the main villain with a gun but he willingly chooses to drop his weapon, for no reason. That kills the drama and there is no tension. I watched a movie like this a few days ago. I didn't get involved in the story anymore when I was like "Ok, this character is just fucking dumb".
Yeah, that's possible. But in Goku's opinion, it wouldn't mean the end of the world because they will train in order to be strong enough to defeat Boo, not because Gohan already was. That's why I think he wasn't.

That happens in DBZ a lot more than you'd imagine . They always give up their advantages to make it a more fair and even fight, why would this time be any different? Also it's DBZ and AT.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Maybe Akira was under pressure of Shonen Jump when the manga in finalizing the course, and he made some "gafs" on the structure of the plot and, because of this, there some confusion in battle powers in the last story arc. Who knows.

There is an interview with Akira, after he completed the manga, here he says the character Goku is the "stronger" of the universe. (who have the interview could post in the topic, please ).

[Amuro Ray]

Remember Pan, you're wrong because Goku made one statement in a panel which was refuted many times over. Seriously - I don't know what else can be said on this subject, when you have to go "out of universe" to explain your theory, it just doesn't work.

How I see the story play out -


Vegeta tries to stop Buu - fails.
Goku teaches the boys fusion and believes that the transformation will be enough to beat buu
The boys fail and Gohan takes over
Gohan fails
Goku and Vegeta Sucessfully save everyone
Goku beats BUU

As far as power - what we are shown is -
SSJ2 Gohan < Vegeta < BUU
Gotenks = BUU
Gotens = BUU < Gohan

Buu < Pure Buu < Goku.
The path is very linear, and the Goku allows EVERYONE to give it their best shot against BUU, including the boys, and the Final result is Goku soloing Buu and winning. The anime firmly follow this logic, I don't know why the rest of this forum can't.

[Draken]

Remember Pan, you're wrong because Goku made one statement in a panel which was refuted many times over. Seriously - I don't know what else can be said on this subject, when you have to go "out of universe" to explain your theory, it just doesn't work.

How I see the story play out -


Vegeta tries to stop Buu - fails.
Goku teaches the boys fusion and believes that the transformation will be enough to beat buu
The boys fail and Gohan takes over
Gohan fails
Goku and Vegeta Sucessfully save everyone
Goku beats BUU

As far as power - what we are shown is -
SSJ2 Gohan < Vegeta < BUU
Gotenks = BUU
Gotens = BUU < Gohan

Buu < Pure Buu < Goku.
The path is very linear, and the Goku allows EVERYONE to give it their best shot against BUU, including the boys, and the Final result is Goku soloing Buu and winning. The anime firmly follow this logic, I don't know why the rest of this forum can't.

Wow because Buu keeps the same power level throughout your entire linear progression and never once powers up/down right? What you are literally saying here is "Ugh I'm undeniably, author approved correct, why doesn't everyone else see this and it's just me + 1 other person with this opinion?"

[Amuro Ray]

Remember Pan, you're wrong because Goku made one statement in a panel which was refuted many times over. Seriously - I don't know what else can be said on this subject, when you have to go "out of universe" to explain your theory, it just doesn't work.

How I see the story play out -


Vegeta tries to stop Buu - fails.
Goku teaches the boys fusion and believes that the transformation will be enough to beat buu
The boys fail and Gohan takes over
Gohan fails
Goku and Vegeta Sucessfully save everyone
Goku beats BUU

As far as power - what we are shown is -
SSJ2 Gohan < Vegeta < BUU
Gotenks = BUU
Gotens = BUU < Gohan

Buu < Pure Buu < Goku.
The path is very linear, and the Goku allows EVERYONE to give it their best shot against BUU, including the boys, and the Final result is Goku soloing Buu and winning. The anime firmly follow this logic, I don't know why the rest of this forum can't.

Wow because Buu keeps the same power level throughout your entire linear progression and never once powers up/down right? What you are literally saying here is "Ugh I'm undeniably, author approved correct, why doesn't everyone else see this and it's just me + 1 other person with this opinion?"

Where did I say that - I didn't state his forms because I assumed that we all knew them already.
Once more, the manga and the anime allude many times over that "Pure Buu/Kid Buu" is the most powerful of all - stronger than "Fat Buu" Stronger than "Super Buu"
Your whole argument relies on one line Goku said to Vegeta, which was later proven wrong (just like an earlier lie he told to Piccolo) requires you to ignore strong implications and assume the anime is completely incorrect to make it work any other way. It just doesn't make sense.

[Bussani]

I don't know why the rest of this forum can't.

You accused other people of not being able to admit that another interpretation could be right, but you seem to be doing just that. This "why doesn't everyone see it the same way I do" thing is just a tad arrogant.

Your whole argument relies on one line Goku said to Vegeta, which was later proven wrong

But it wasn't proven wrong in their interpretation. You're trying to use your opinions as facts to shoot down their opinions. That makes no sense. If you want to point out something wrong with someone else's interpretation, you have to use something less subjective. Offering one interpretation doesn't disprove another.

To put it simply, why can't everyone just agree with you? For the same reason you don't agree with them. Even if you disagree with them, you should at least be able to understand that their way feels as right to them as your way does to you. Let's all try to understand that and respect each other, just as we'd want others to respect us.

[Draken]

To put it simply, why can't everyone just agree with you? For the same reason you don't agree with them. Even if you disagree with them, you should at least be able to understand that their way feels as right to them as your way does to you. Let's all try to understand that and respect each other, just as we'd want others to respect us.

I've been barking up that tree for the past couple of days =\. He's flat out stated he refuses to believe in any other interpretation and can't concede that any other interpretation could be correct simply because he doesn't agree with it and he's that confident in himself.

[Darkprince410]

Where did I say that - I didn't state his forms because I assumed that we all knew them already.
Once more, the manga and the anime allude many times over that "Pure Buu/Kid Buu" is the most powerful of all - stronger than "Fat Buu" Stronger than "Super Buu"
Your whole argument relies on one line Goku said to Vegeta, which was later proven wrong (just like an earlier lie he told to Piccolo) requires you to ignore strong implications and assume the anime is completely incorrect to make it work any other way. It just doesn't make sense.

That's the thing though, it's never proven wrong. There's not a single line spoken, not a single action performed that could be construed as proving that he was lying to Vegeta when he said it. The only reasons you've given to support your views on it is that, 1) You feel that Pure Buu is stronger (though no evidence exists in the manga to support that) and therefore he must be lying, and 2) Because he did lie in the past about his ability to destroy Fat Buu.

You are missing the fact that when Goku lied to Piccolo about his chances intentionally because he wanted to remove himself from the equation. He wanted the boys to be able to defend the world on their own and to not rely on him all the time. In this case though, he had no reason to lie to Vegeta. Unlike in the anime, in the manga it's clear he doesn't like the idea of fusing, certainly not to the point of lying. If he's going to tell Vegeta they have no chance of winning, then he means it. However, he's got every reason to lie to Buu about how strong he is later when confronting him within Buu's head. He was hoping that Buu would believe him and back down so that they could escape.

Supporting Evil Buu is stronger

1) Gotenks's Ssj form (before spending time in the Room of Spirit and Time) is established by both Goku and Piccolo as being on the same tier of power as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
2) It takes Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin 3 to be on par with Evil Buu
3) Goku establishes that he and Vegeta would stand no chance whatsoever with fighting Evil Buu, even after weakening him drastically by removing Gohan and the others.
4) When reverting to Pure Buu, he went from a power too high for Goku and Vegeta to beat, up to a power even higher, and then finally, in his final regression, dropped to a power low enough that Goku felt confident he could beat him.

I asked earlier yet you never bothered to respond to it, but why would Goku lie to Vegeta about their odds at fighting Buu?

[Hitiro]

Goku is implying that Gohan could now beat Boo by himself, rather than needing Goku's help through fusion or some other method. As opposed to him needing Goku's help against Bootenks.

Here again, you need to focus on the verb used. Here we have "beat" instead of "fight".
When Goku uses "to beat", he implies high chance of victory.
When Goku uses "to fight", he implies, well, an unknown outcome.

Yes, its said Gohan can "beat" Evil Boo in this passage whereas when they're on about bringing Gohan and Gotenks back to life he mentions "fight." But Goku is only saying "fight" in this regard because he's saying they would be able fight Pure Boo when they're back alive. Its not really about implying an unknown income. The line "they can fight" is merely in reference to them having the capability to fight doing to now being alive. I think you might be reading a little too much into this.

In fact I'll pose another quote to you which should arguably be "beat" itself.

Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P12.2-4
Vegeta: “Listen, you dirty bastard…! This Ginyu Special-Squad that Freeza has called is about as…no, they could be even stronger than me! And there are five of them!! They’ll find your ball with their scouters and come to kill us all!!!”
Kuririn: “N-no… It can’t be…”
Vegeta: “Don’t you feel their power?!! There’s only one way!!! Make me immortal so I can fight them!!!”
Nail: “He could be telling the truth… I do feel five large, evil powers…”

Here Vegeta is pleading with them to make him immortal so he can beat the Ginyu Special-Squad. Clearly if he's immortal he has a high chance of victory because he wouldn't die so the only outcome would be Vegeta winning eventually. So why does Vegeta say "fight" instead of "beat"?

Yet we see him later talk about how he could have defeated this fat Boo.
So, I would assume he lied on purpose in both cases.
Why would he lie inside Boo's body ? If you ask me, I'd say that...in my opinion...
He preferred to try the fusion because he was keeping SSJ 3 as a last resort. He was waiting until he got no choice but to use it. He thought it would be easier if they fused. Especially when considering that he had to protect the children and his friends around.

This is a reasonable assumption. But Goku lied to hide the fact he had SSJ3 the first time and then when Piccolo asked if Goku could have beaten Fat Boo after he thought him as a SSJ3, Goku was unsure. He did end up saying he couldn't but he beat around the bush slightly. And he finished the conversation with the face that he isn't alive anymore so it should fall on the boys to keep the Earth safe. To me this implied that he was hinting he could have beaten Fat Boo but he wanted to leave it up to the next generation as he wouldn't be around forever. There is also no reason for Goku to lie inside Boo's body. Everyone knows of his SSJ3 transformation and they are kind of in a bad predicament. Both Gohan and the kids are unconscious so there is nothing for his lie to fall back on. With the Fat Boo lie Goten and Trunks were possible candidates to defeat Fat Boo with the fusion so there is no harm in Goku lying there as even if he did lie something could have been done about it.

And finally, there is just no clear proof he lied about him not being able to beat Evil Boo. Only assumptions due to him lying once before. I don't feel that is enough to go off when making an argument. It's the same as me saying "Majin Vegeta was putting up a good fight against Fat Boo until Fat Boo caught Majin Vegeta off-guard." < This is largely open to interpretation too, you could say that Fat Boo wasn't trying or that Majin Vegeta only got in a few lucky punches. Or you can believe that he actually put up a good until he was caught off-guard. All we have to go off with Evil Boo is Goku said there is no way they can win. And it sounded a lot more certain than his conversation with Piccolo. You can make the assumption he was lying about it too but as it stands there is no proof to prove otherwise.

Goku suggested it first because it was his only idea. It would be a desperate attempt, someway. It makes no sense to ignore an easy way to defeat Boo just because they prefer to let the Earthlings do the job.

This can also be open to interpretation though. Goku hasn't had any problem thinking about using the Genki Dama first before. There is nothing for definite.

If that was the case, Toriyama would have found a way to not make it possible to bring back Gohan and Gotenks. Because, out of universe, it makes the final battle risky only in an anticlimatic way. As if, in another story, the main character could kill the main villain with a gun but he willingly chooses to drop his weapon, for no reason. That kills the drama and there is no tension. I watched a movie like this a few days ago. I didn't get involved in the story anymore when I was like "Ok, this character is just fucking dumb".

At this point Toriyama probably just wanted the story to be over. And he saw no better way to illustrate it than getting the Earthlings to chip into finishing the fight and actually making use of the dragonballs to end it for a "full-circle" kind of thing making it seem as if it always comes back to the dragonballs.

Yeah, that's possible. But in Goku's opinion, it wouldn't mean the end of the world because they will train in order to be strong enough to defeat Boo, not because Gohan already was. That's why I think he wasn't.

But Gohan can be strong enough to defeat Boo without being strong enough to stop him from destroying the world. Like how Goku was strong enough to beat Freeza when he went SSJ but he wasn't strong enough to prevent Freeza from trying to destroy Namek. Perhaps what Goku was implying here is they would need to be strong enough to prevent anything Boo were to throw at them. Whether it be an attack of planetary destruction or just fighting in general. Plus, I've always seen the training part only applying to Goku, Vegeta and the kids. In my opinion it does not apply to Gohan because he has the Rou Kaioshin powerup which arguably means that he has already reached his maximum potential considering the Rou Kaioshin power up unlocks his potential way beyond his limits.

[Amuro Ray]

1) Gotenks's Ssj form (before spending time in the Room of Spirit and Time) is established by both Goku and Piccolo as being on the same tier of power as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku


No - not even close. They transformed twice, first time in base form and though we didn't see, we know they lost - badly.
Second time they transformed, they never fought Buu. We see the overconfident brats transform into SSJ and attempt to attack BUU, only for time to run out before there was a fight. Not once did Goku or Piccolo comment that his power is enough to beat Buu (Goku isn't even shown in the panels)

2) It takes Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin 3 to be on par with Evil Buu
I'm not sure I was arguing this.

Goku establishes that he and Vegeta would stand no chance whatsoever with fighting Evil Buu, even after weakening him drastically by removing Gohan and the others.
Goku also says earlier that he couldn't have beaten Fatbuu twice - this is a lie, just like the statement above. Goku believes that SSJ3 is a FINAL option, not a first, and thinks Fusion would be the best way to beat Buu, I don't know how many times we have to go over this same point.

4) When reverting to Pure Buu, he went from a power too high for Goku and Vegeta to beat, up to a power even higher, and then finally, in his final regression, dropped to a power low enough that Goku felt confident he could beat him.

Once more, the story never implies ANYTHING of the sort. Not once.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Goku establishes that he and Vegeta would stand no chance whatsoever with fighting Evil Buu, even after weakening him drastically by removing Gohan and the others.
Goku also says earlier that he couldn't have beaten Fatbuu twice - this is a lie, just like the statement above. Goku believes that SSJ3 is a FINAL option, not a first, and thinks Fusion would be the best way to beat Buu, I don't know how many times we have to go over this same point.

Goku at least retracted his statement when it came to Fat Boo, with Super Boo he does nothing of the sort, also Goku knows he needs SSJ3 to fight Super Boo, as he is more powerful than Fat Boo, so him saying he can't win, means he can't win. I can't see what else it could mean, mind explaining?

[Amuro Ray]

Goku establishes that he and Vegeta would stand no chance whatsoever with fighting Evil Buu, even after weakening him drastically by removing Gohan and the others.
Goku also says earlier that he couldn't have beaten Fatbuu twice - this is a lie, just like the statement above. Goku believes that SSJ3 is a FINAL option, not a first, and thinks Fusion would be the best way to beat Buu, I don't know how many times we have to go over this same point.

Goku at least retracted his statement when it came to Fat Boo, with Super Boo he does nothing of the sort, also Goku knows he needs SSJ3 to fight Super Boo, as he is more powerful than Fat Boo, so him saying he can't win, means he can't win. I can't see what else it could mean, mind explaining?

Kid Buu is established as being more powerful than "evil Buu" and Goku willingly faces him head on, and Goku also admits to Vegeta that SSJ3 is for use in an Emergency. Just like Gotenks and Vegeta figured out before him - Goku sees that Buu as near limitless stamina and durability, you won't just "wear him down."

[Hitiro]

1) Gotenks's Ssj form (before spending time in the Room of Spirit and Time) is established by both Goku and Piccolo as being on the same tier of power as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku


No - not even close. They transformed twice, first time and base form and though we didn't see, we know they lost - badly.
Second time they transformed, they never fought Buu. We see the overconfident brats transform into SSJ and attempt to attack BUU, only for time to run out before there was a fight. Not once did Goku or Piccolo comment that his power is enough to beat Buu (Goku isn't even shown in the panels)

Does this matter? SSJ3 Gotenks will be stronger than SSJ3 Goku no matter if their SSJ form is strong enough to be on par with SSJ3 Goku. Let's not forget that even though they lost in base form they still came back alive. So they are arguably more powerful than SSJ Goku, SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Gohan in his base form, he is probably closer to Majin Vegeta in his base form. Going by linear progression because we know what the SSJ forms are like it would be like this(even if we assume that Gotenks still wasn't strong enough to beat Fat Boo):

SSJ Gohan < SSJ Vegeta(Pre-Majin) < SSJ Goku < Gotenks < SSJ2 Gohan < SSJ2 Vegeta(Pre-Majin) < SSJ2 Goku < SSJ Gotenks < Fat Boo < SSJ3 Goku < SSJ3 Gotenks = Evil Boo

^ This is assuming we make Gotenks base weak enough to say he wouldn't have been able to get away from Fat Boo.

Let me establish this better:
SSJ Gohan: 10
SSJ Vegeta(Pre-Majin): 15
SSJ Goku: 20
Gotenks: 25
SSJ2 Gohan: 20 (x2 SSJ = 100x base)
SSJ2 Vegeta(Pre-Majin): 30
SSJ2 Goku: 40
SSJ Gotenks: 1,250 (25 x 50 which is SSJ Multiplier)
Fat Boo: 1,300
SSJ3 Goku: 2,000 (Assuming that the SSJ3 Multiplier is 5,000 for base, or 50x more than SSJ2)
SSJ2 Gotenks: 2,500 (x2 SSJ = 100x base)
SSJ3 Gotenks: 125,000 (50x more than SSJ2 or 5,000x base)
Evil Boo: 125,000

Going by this then SSJ3 would have to have a much larger multiplier as Goku would be too weak to beat Boo. So SSJ Gotenks must be stronger than Fat Boo for the previous 400x multiplier for SSJ3 to hold true.

Goku establishes that he and Vegeta would stand no chance whatsoever with fighting Evil Buu, even after weakening him drastically by removing Gohan and the others.
Goku also says earlier that he couldn't have beaten Fatbuu twice - this is a lie, just like the statement above. Goku believes that SSJ3 is a FINAL option, not a first, and thinks Fusion would be the best way to beat Buu, I don't know how many times we have to go over this same point.

Goku lies the first time to hide he has a new transformation. The second time, after he thought Fat Boo, he beats around the bush slightly. He doesn't straight come out with "I can't beat him." he start's with "I don't know" he also says that he wants to leave it to the next generation as he is dead and he wouldn't be around to protect the world. So that is a slight hint that he might have been able to do it. When he lies Goten and Trunks are capable of defeating Fat Boo with fusion. So he has an excuse to lie there. Why would he lie about Evil Boo when there is no back up plan? Both Gohan and the boys are unconscious and we don't know when they'll wake up, so he'd be the only one capable(If he were lying). I don't see why he would lie given the circumstances.

4) When reverting to Pure Buu, he went from a power too high for Goku and Vegeta to beat, up to a power even higher, and then finally, in his final regression, dropped to a power low enough that Goku felt confident he could beat him.

Once more, the story never implies ANYTHING of the sort. Not once.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Pretty sure this does. Why would Goku make such a big deal if his ki hadn't decreased? Vegeta is obviously talking about size here. But I doubt Goku thinks they can manage something purely because his size has shrunk down.

[Amuro Ray]

This is so sad, it’s almost hilarious – you’ve been proven wrong multiple times to the point on which you even fabricate information (unapologetically) and have to go “out of universe” to explain your logic. Essentially anyone reading this can already see you’re grasping at straws here – it doesn’t add up.

Let’s try this again –
Does this matter? SSJ3 Gotenks will be stronger than SSJ3 Goku no matter if their SSJ form is strong enough to be on par with SSJ3 Goku. Let's not forget that even though they lost in base form they still came back alive. So they are arguably more powerful than SSJ Goku, SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Gohan in his base form, he is probably closer to Majin Vegeta in his base form. Going by linear progression because we know what the SSJ forms are like it would be like this(even if we assume that Gotenks still wasn't strong enough to beat Fat Boo):

Yes it does matter only because you were incorrect about what initially happened: the boys lost badly and it was heavily implied it was a one sided fight. Vegeta fought Kidbuu in base form, and survived does this mean he too is as strong as base Gotenks? Because we didn’t see the fight, we can’t assume the boys are stronger or weaker than Vegeta, Gohan or Goku in any form. Your circular logic is baseless.

Goku lies the first time to hide he has a new transformation. The second time, after he thought Fat Boo, he beats around the bush slightly. He doesn't straight come out with "I can't beat him." he start's with "I don't know" he also says that he wants to leave it to the next generation as he is dead and he wouldn't be around to protect the world. So that is a slight hint that he might have been able to do it. When he lies Goten and Trunks are capable of defeating Fat Boo with fusion. So he has an excuse to lie there. Why would he lie about Evil Boo when there is no back up plan? Both Gohan and the boys are unconscious and we don't know when they'll wake up, so he'd be the only one capable(If he were lying). I don't see why he would lie given the circumstances.

Goku says both times “I don’t think I can beat him” Which is not only refuted through Goku’s statement, but through his actions as well. Goku tells Vegeta that SSJ3 is for emergency use, once more – it’s not the first option. If the boys were stronger/more reliable than Goku, it only seems fitting that they would find a way to allow the boys to help.

Pretty sure this does. Why would Goku make such a big deal if his ki hadn't decreased? Vegeta is obviously talking about size here. But I doubt Goku thinks they can manage something purely because his size has shrunk down.

Did you even read what you posted?
“Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.”

This is getting tiring, I feel like I'm fighting the Manjin Buu of arguements.

[Amuro Ray]

The best conclusion I can come up with is that this saga of the story was written very sloppy, but AT was honest in how he wanted the story to turn out. Toei also knows, which is why they produced the story in the way that they did with Goku being the "strongest."

I can see how you might be able to argue your point, but basing your whole arguement off one statement is not only weak, but stupid. You're completely missing what the story is trying to convey.

[Darkprince410]

1) Gotenks's Ssj form (before spending time in the Room of Spirit and Time) is established by both Goku and Piccolo as being on the same tier of power as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku


No - not even close. They transformed twice, first time in base form and though we didn't see, we know they lost - badly.
Second time they transformed, they never fought Buu. We see the overconfident brats transform into SSJ and attempt to attack BUU, only for time to run out before there was a fight. Not once did Goku or Piccolo comment that his power is enough to beat Buu (Goku isn't even shown in the panels)

2) It takes Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin 3 to be on par with Evil Buu
I'm not sure I was arguing this.

Goku establishes that he and Vegeta would stand no chance whatsoever with fighting Evil Buu, even after weakening him drastically by removing Gohan and the others.
Goku also says earlier that he couldn't have beaten Fatbuu twice - this is a lie, just like the statement above. Goku believes that SSJ3 is a FINAL option, not a first, and thinks Fusion would be the best way to beat Buu, I don't know how many times we have to go over this same point.

4) When reverting to Pure Buu, he went from a power too high for Goku and Vegeta to beat, up to a power even higher, and then finally, in his final regression, dropped to a power low enough that Goku felt confident he could beat him.

Once more, the story never implies ANYTHING of the sort. Not once.

1) Piccolo never questions Ssj Gotenks' power when he first fuses, and since he's going under the notion that Ssj Gotenks should have a battle power higher than Ssj3 Goku's (since he believes that Goku might not have been able to beat Fat Buu and that Gotenks can). He never makes a single comment, statement, or inference that Ssj Gotenks (before entering the Room of Spirit and Time) is weaker than Goku made him out to be, and Piccolo readily would say something about it if it were the case.

Secondly, when Goku is on Kaioushin's planet, he notices that Buu's ki has disappeared (from when he entered the Room of Spirit and Time), then makes the comment that he can't sense Gotenks' energy either (implying that he should be able to but can't for some reason). Since this is before Gotenks escapes the Room of Spirit and Time (and before Goku even learns they went in there), Goku's only knowledge about how powerful Gotenks is/should be is from what he knows about the fusion, the boys' strength, and what he's sensed from them so far. We also know that it takes a ki level of Super Saiya-jin 3 tier to be sensed from Kaioushin's planet (as established by Kibito when Goku was transforming).

Since we have Goku expecting to be able to sense Ssj Gotenks' ki from Kaioushin's planet, that he knows how powerful Ssj Gotenks should be, and that it takes Ssj3 tier ki or higher to be sensed from the planet, we can reasonably infer that Ssj Gotenks' ki, according to Goku, is on the same tier as Ssj3 Goku's ki.

3) That's the thing though, you can't say it's a lie because there's no evidence to support it's a lie. With the Fat Buu comments, we know they're lies because Goku later points out that they were, but nothing is said or done to indicate he was lying to Vegeta about their chances. Final option or not, Goku clearly indicated that fusion was their ONLY option when it came to defeating Evil Buu. He wasn't even willing to entertain the possibility of fighting Evil Buu as a Super Saiya-jin 3, instead wanting to stay within Evil Buu to find additional ways of weakening him if Vegeta wasn't going to fuse with him. If Evil Buu was weaker than Pure Buu, as you believe, then Goku wouldn't have hesitated to use Super Saiya-jin 3 to beat him, since he didn't want to fuse with Vegeta for the sake of fusing. The fact that he was willing to just fight Pure Buu as a Super Saiya-jin 3 rather than insist Vegeta fusing with him as their only option of winning strongly indicates Evil Buu being the stronger.

4)

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

So we have Goku saying that he and Vegeta stand no chance (with nothing stated, said, or inferred later to contradict this) against Evil Buu, then transforming into South Kaioushin Buu resulted in an increase of his power, and then finally when returning to his Pure form, he's become something that Goku feels they can manage. The first quote and the last one also tie together, suggesting that Pure Buu was something along the lines of what Goku was wanting to have happen.

Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”

This suggests that, for Goku, Buu's ki hasn't dropped to a level that he's wanting it to be yet, but removing Gohan and the others have brought him to a level closer to what he's wanting to try and deal with.

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

The "We did it!" indicates that something has completed that they were trying to have happen. What were they trying to do recently that he'd exclaim a "we did it" for? Weakening Buu to a point where he'd be something they could handle on their own. Evil Buu wasn't weak enough for them to handle, but was a step in the right direction from Gohan Buu, but Pure Buu was.

While Vegeta makes a comment about Pure Buu's physical size, remember that Goku is never one to base his assumptions of someone's ability just on their physical appearance. For him to say that Pure Buu is something they can manage, he's saying that strictly about Buu's ki.

[Hitiro]

This is so sad, it’s almost hilarious – you’ve been proven wrong multiple times to the point on which you even fabricate information (unapologetically) and have to go “out of universe” to explain your logic. Essentially anyone reading this can already see you’re grasping at straws here – it doesn’t add up.

Let’s try this again –
Does this matter? SSJ3 Gotenks will be stronger than SSJ3 Goku no matter if their SSJ form is strong enough to be on par with SSJ3 Goku. Let's not forget that even though they lost in base form they still came back alive. So they are arguably more powerful than SSJ Goku, SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Gohan in his base form, he is probably closer to Majin Vegeta in his base form. Going by linear progression because we know what the SSJ forms are like it would be like this(even if we assume that Gotenks still wasn't strong enough to beat Fat Boo):

Yes it does matter only because you were incorrect about what initially happened: the boys lost badly and it was heavily implied it was a one sided fight. Vegeta fought Kidbuu in base form, and survived does this mean he too is as strong as base Gotenks? Because we didn’t see the fight, we can’t assume the boys are stronger or weaker than Vegeta, Gohan or Goku in any form. Your circular logic is baseless.

Wow, you are pretty arrogant. Vegeta survived because Pure Boo was toying with him. Vegeta didn't try to run away. Do you not recall SSJ Gohan trying to run away from Fat Boo only to almost die? There is a difference. Gotenks escaped from being killed by Fat Boo. Vegeta was saved by Mr. Satan and Fat Boo plus the Genki Dama. We can assume Gotenks is stronger than Goku, Vegeta and Gohan because Goku wouldn't have suggested it otherwise. And he wouldn't have thought that Gotenks should be able to beat Fat Boo with SSJ. Anybody can see that my viewpoint has merit, please don't come on here trashing somebody else's viewpoint. This is why you've been warned by the admin's so many times. You're behaviour is uncalled for.

Goku says both times “I don’t think I can beat him” Which is not only refuted through Goku’s statement, but through his actions as well. Goku tells Vegeta that SSJ3 is for emergency use, once more – it’s not the first option. If the boys were stronger/more reliable than Goku, it only seems fitting that they would find a way to allow the boys to help.

You said exactly what I was saying the first place he says "I don't think," this implies uncertainty. The first time he actually says outright he can't beat him because he was hiding SSJ3. The second time he's like "I don't know, I don't think I can beat him. His power is like a lie." this was also a lie but it was filled with uncertainty. And again, if they were to find a way to get the boys to help. It would have made the last battle boring as they would have destroyed Boo with no problems. That is why Akira Toriyama opted for the Genki Dama. Goku even said that he thought Vegeta was wishing everyone back to get one of them to fight.

Pretty sure this does. Why would Goku make such a big deal if his ki hadn't decreased? Vegeta is obviously talking about size here. But I doubt Goku thinks they can manage something purely because his size has shrunk down.

Did you even read what you posted?
“Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.”

This is getting tiring, I feel like I'm fighting the Manjin Buu of arguements.

Again, your attitude is showing through here, please adjust it. Did you even read what I wrote?

Pretty sure this does. Why would Goku make such a big deal if his ki hadn't decreased? Vegeta is obviously talking about size here. But I doubt Goku thinks they can manage something purely because his size has shrunk down.

I'm not disputing Vegeta wasn't talking about ki. But as it says in the note. "That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too.” Are you telling me that Goku was happy because his size shrunk? So I guess if a new villain was introduced which was bigger than Evil Boo had enough ki that he/she could destroy the universe if he/she only used 1% of it was shrunk down to Pure Boo's size Goku would still think they could manage something? The answer is no. Goku wouldn't have said they'd be able to manage something unless Boo's ki dropped. Goku knows size has nothing to do with how powerful the opponent is and size doesn't effect how powerful an opponent is either in the Dragon ball universe. For instance, Piccolo and Goku were nearly even in power during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and then Piccolo grew to become a giant. Goku was still a match for him even with his increase in size.

[Vice]

Because plot.

[Amuro Ray]

I'm literally FACEPALMING MYSELF SO HARD right now.

1) Piccolo never questions Ssj Gotenks' power when he first fuses, and since he's going under the notion that Ssj Gotenks should have a battle power higher than Ssj3 Goku's (since he believes that Goku might not have been able to beat Fat Buu and that Gotenks can). He never makes a single comment, statement, or inference that Ssj Gotenks (before entering the Room of Spirit and Time) is weaker than Goku made him out to be, and Piccolo readily would say something about it if it were the case.

When since something not stated or implied = Stated/implied.This foolishness.

Secondly, when Goku is on Kaioushin's planet, he notices that Buu's ki has disappeared (from when he entered the Room of Spirit and Time), then makes the comment that he can't sense Gotenks' energy either (implying that he should be able to but can't for some reason). Since this is before Gotenks escapes the Room of Spirit and Time (and before Goku even learns they went in there), Goku's only knowledge about how powerful Gotenks is/should be is from what he knows about the fusion, the boys' strength, and what he's sensed from them so far. We also know that it takes a ki level of Super Saiya-jin 3 tier to be sensed from Kaioushin's planet (as established by Kibito when Goku was transforming).

Since when was it stated that you can't sense anyone’s power from the Kai's planet that isn't on SSJ3 level? Goku is extremely good at tracking people’s powers, one of his best moves is reliant on it. Kaioushin didn't even notice Buu or Gotenks was missing until Goku mentioned it - according to your argument, wouldn't that imply they weren't even on SSJ3 tier?

That's the thing though, you can't say it's a lie because there's no evidence to support it's a lie. With the Fat Buu comments, we know they're lies because Goku later points out that they were, but nothing is said or done to indicate he was lying to Vegeta about their chances. Final option or not, Goku clearly indicated that fusion was their ONLY option when it came to defeating Evil Buu. He wasn't even willing to entertain the possibility of fighting Evil Buu as a Super Saiya-jin 3, instead wanting to stay within Evil Buu to find additional ways of weakening him if Vegeta wasn't going to fuse with him. If Evil Buu was weaker than Pure Buu, as you believe, then Goku wouldn't have hesitated to use Super Saiya-jin 3 to beat him, since he didn't want to fuse with Vegeta for the sake of fusing. The fact that he was willing to just fight Pure Buu as a Super Saiya-jin 3 rather than insist Vegeta fusing with him as their only option of winning strongly indicates Evil Buu being the stronger.

LOL, except for Goku and Kaioushin mentioning him becoming stronger.

So we have Goku saying that he and Vegeta stand no chance (with nothing stated, said, or inferred later to contradict this) against Evil Buu, then transforming into South Kaioushin Buu resulted in an increase of his power, and then finally when returning to his Pure form, he's become something that Goku feels they can manage. The first quote and the last one also tie together, suggesting that Pure Buu was something along the lines of what Goku was wanting to have happen.



So I went back and read my incorrectly translated scans - it simply didn't happen like that (or in that order):


Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5

THEN -

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5



Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3



And finally -

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6


^notice Goku NEVER SAYS A WORD. Only Vegeta comments and it's purely in relation to size, not power (as your own translation noted) Why do you keep arguing this?