How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Draken]

Still no way to gauge if his baseline Pure form is stronger/ Weaker than Superbuu. I'll go with stronger though, it make more sense in the context of the story.

There is and no it makes even less sense in the context of the story. If you wanna believe Pure Buu is strongest, fine. Don't, however, ignore the evidence that Evil Buu is stronger.

Right.

The eyerolling and being near alone on your adamant blind take on things doesn't help your case at all.

[Kaboom]

Appropriate actions have been taken. Let's try to keep the thread on a friendly track.

[Zephyr]

Still no way to gauge if his baseline Pure form is stronger/ Weaker than Superbuu. I'll go with stronger though, it make more sense in the context of the story.

The most clear context of the story seems to be that they were desperate to the point where fusion was required, against Evil Buu, and confident to the point that they broke the potara, against Pure Buu. Not seeing the big thing that somehow disrupts this basic concept.

[Amuro Ray]

Why do you insist on trying to offend the people here? You're not the only one who believes this way (about the Buus), but from what I've seen, you're the only one to be so blatantly rude about it. Surely you have better things to do than go in circles arguing with and insulting people.

Feel free to put me on ignore/block, like I said, I don't expect to be around much longer.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why do you insist on trying to offend the people here? You're not the only one who believes this way (about the Buus), but from what I've seen, you're the only one to be so blatantly rude about it. Surely you have better things to do than go in circles arguing with and insulting people.

Do you find the roll eyes as insulting and rude to you? Feel free to put me on ignore/block.

I'm just calling it like I see it. I have no issue personally with you, but from what I've seen, you tend to be dismissive of other people's arguements, refuse to accept any other points of view, and yes, to my knowledge, at least where I'm from, rolling your eyes at someone is considered rude.

[dbzfan7]

Emoticons seem to be used more for evil then good.

Appropriate actions have been taken. Let's try to keep the thread on a friendly track.

Unfortunately, I think the friendly track ended sometime ago.

[Amuro Ray]

Still no way to gauge if his baseline Pure form is stronger/ Weaker than Superbuu. I'll go with stronger though, it make more sense in the context of the story.

The most clear context of the story seems to be that they were desperate to the point where fusion was required, against Evil Buu, and confident to the point that they broke the potara, against Pure Buu. Not seeing the big thing that somehow disrupts this basic concept.

Fair point, but was Goku taking into account his SSJ3 - his comment remained the same, fusion was the best option to beat Buu, not the only option.

I've seen, you tend to be dismissive of other people's arguements, refuse to accept any other points of view, and yes, to my knowledge, at least where I'm from, rolling your eyes at someone is considered rude.

So who in this thread has ever conceeded any ground on their arguements - I challenge you to pick out a poster in this thread otherthan me who does so, It's not entirely factual that I'm completely dismissive of counter arguements. I'm just not going to entertain toughtless banter and argue "out of universe intent" to "finish the story quickly" Sorry.

As for the roll eyes, why have them if I can't use them?

[Zephyr]

Fair point, but was Goku taking into account his SSJ3 - his comment remained the same, fusion was the best option to beat Buu, not the only option.

I'm not talking about comments or statements. Goku knew how powerful Buu was. Goku knew potara fusion was permanent. He wouldn't have wasted time talking Vegeta into permanently fusing with him if that wasn't the only way to win. Vegeta wouldn't have agreed if that wasn't the only way to win.

[Amuro Ray]

Fair point, but was Goku taking into account his SSJ3 - his comment remained the same, fusion was the best option to beat Buu, not the only option.

I'm not talking about comments or statements. Goku knew how powerful Buu was. Goku knew potara fusion was permanent. He wouldn't have wasted time talking Vegeta into permanently fusing with him if that wasn't the only way to win. Vegeta wouldn't have agreed if that wasn't the only way to win.

So did Vegeta, but he didn't orginally believe that they needed the Fusion to beat SuperBuu (betting on Goku's SSJ3?) And when Pure Buu appeared, the Kai's suggested Fusion as the only way to beat him as well.

[Zephyr]

And by that point, even Goku refused fusion.

[Kamiccolo9]

I've seen, you tend to be dismissive of other people's arguements, refuse to accept any other points of view, and yes, to my knowledge, at least where I'm from, rolling your eyes at someone is considered rude.

So who in this thread has ever conceeded any ground on their arguements - I challenge you to pick out a poster in this thread otherthan me who does so, It's not entirely factual that I'm completely dismissive of counter arguements. I'm just not going to entertain toughtless banter and argue "out of universe intent" to "finish the story quickly" Sorry.

As for the roll eyes, why have them if I can't use them?

Most people here tend to be well informed enough to back up their opinions, you included, as far as I can tell. The story is vague enough where, often, multiple interpetations are available. And often, there is not enough evidence to provide ironclad proof of author intent, such as the case here. So, while the vast majority of the people here may believe one side of the arguement, it's okay to advocate the other side too. If you can provide enough evidence to support your view to your satisfaction, then good for you. But don't expect everyone else to immediately agree with you, especially when you refuse to acknowledge their arguements as possible. If everyone agreed on everything, then what would be the point of this forum?

[Draken]

Fair point, but was Goku taking into account his SSJ3 - his comment remained the same, fusion was the best option to beat Buu, not the only option.

I'm not talking about comments or statements. Goku knew how powerful Buu was. Goku knew potara fusion was permanent. He wouldn't have wasted time talking Vegeta into permanently fusing with him if that wasn't the only way to win. Vegeta wouldn't have agreed if that wasn't the only way to win.

So did Vegeta, but he didn't orginally believe that they needed the Fusion to beat SuperBuu (betting on Goku's SSJ3?) And when Pure Buu appeared, the Kai's suggested Fusion as the only way to beat him as well.

Uhm what? No why would they bet on the abilities of someone who was dead and would not be wished back to life any time soon barring unforeseen circumstances? They were betting on Gotenks, who at SSJ was pretty clearly stated to be at the same level as Goku SSJ3. Meaning Gotenks SSJ3 >>>> Goku SSJ3, and using common sense following their respective fights against Super Buu, Chou Gohan >>>> Gotenks SSJ3 >= Super Buu >>>> Goku SSJ3.

And the Kai's are terrible indicators of power. They thought that Goku would have trouble with Yakon and Vegeta with Pui Pui LOL. What is a good indicator is Goku and Vegeta both being extremely confident that Kid Buu would fall without the help of fusion or outside fighters.

[VegettoEX]

As for the roll eyes, why have them if I can't use them?

You (along with everyone else here) also have the tools -- a keyboard and presumably fingers -- to do nothing but lay out an entire tirade filled with obscenities/vulgarity/insults. They letters are right there on the keyboard in front of you, and you can press them in certain orders to get certain words and phrases.

The key thing is that, instead of doing that, everyone actually upholds some sort of community value set and at least pretends and puts on a good show about being polite to each other and contributing worthwhile posts.

It's a toolbox. Please use it properly.

[hleV]

I see quite a few valid points regarding Evil Boo's superiority to Pure Boo. Yes, there are questionable counter-arguments, but then I don't see any valid points regarding Pure Boo's superiority to Evil Boo!

• SS2 Majin Vegeta was no match for Fat Boo - fact.
• SS3 Goku would've been able to defeat Fat Boo - never contradicted.
• SS Gotenks would've been able to defeat Fat Boo in less than 30 minutes - never contradicted.
• SS Gotenks wasn't a big match for Evil Boo - fact.
• SS3 Gotenks would've been able to defeat Evil Boo - subjective.
• SS3 Goku was no match for Piccolo, Goten & Trunks-absorbed Boo - subjective.
• Goku was scared of Evil Boo - fact.
• Goku wasn't scared of Pure Boo - fact.
• SS3 Goku at full power would've been able to defeat Pure Boo - never contradicted.

Did I miss anything important? Either way, nothing ever points to Pure Boo anyhow being stronger than Evil Boo.

[Pan-Pan]

This argument doesn't explain why they didn't just bring them anyway to hold off Boo while the Genki Dama is being formed. And don't say they thought it wouldn't take long. They can't be as stupid to believe that everyone would agree just like that, and there is still no reason why at any point leading up to the launching of the Genki Dama that they couldn't have wished Gohan and the kids to Goku's side to help. Base Vegeta did not need to try and hold off Pure Boo by himself.

I'm sorry, but this is a poor excuse. It was obvious that they should have brought Gohan and the Kids to the Kaioshin planet as soon as Pure Boo was done with Fat Boo. Not have a Base Vegeta hold off Pure Boo while Goku gathers the Genki Dama. Whatever you say there is no excuse for Vegeta not using the last wish to bring Gohan and the boys there to stall for time instead of do it himself. As soon as he realised that some people weren't convinced he should have made the wish to bring them there. There is just no excuse for him to not make use of the boys. He couldn't have known how the Genki Dama plan could have gone down which is why he should have brought them.

It seems you didn't understand what I meant. As soon as they raise their hands, they're drained of energy. This is confirmed by Kibitoshin not being able to teleport after he sent his ki. So, since they have no stamina/power left, they can't fight anymore. That's why it's useless to bring them.

Maybe its just me but Vegeta seems to be saying the only way they can win is if he's immortal. You can argue this if you want but him being immortal would mean he'd eventually win so "beat" would be an appropriate use of the word here. Yet it doesn't use it.

He just said "There's only one way !" We really don't know what he's trying to say. One way for you to escape ? One way to survive ? to win ? to fight (this one seems to be the most logical cause he says right after "make me immortal so I can fight them")?
You're saying he'd eventually win but I already explained to you why the fact he can't die doesn't necessarily mean he would win.

But there is no exact evidence of Pure Boo being stronger. What you believe is evidence is Goku saying Gohan and Gotenks can fight instead of using the word "beat." That isn't really evidence at all, that's just you trying to pull out evidence of probably a badly worded sentence. Your entire premise that Pure Boo is stronger than Evil Boo are vague comments which could be misconstrued into believing Pure Boo is stronger.

The real evidence is the fact they didn't bring them. This sentence only supports this fact. Why didn't they bring them ? Because they can't beat Boo, this is what Goku is implying. See ? There is no other reason.

They were aware Gohan was dead as soon as Goku teleported them to the lookout. Are you telling me that in the time it took for Goku to teleport them from Bulma's house to the lookout, which is instantenous, they had forgotten the exact wording of their wish? I'm guessing all of them suffer from short-term memory loss then? Fair enough about his power, I made that point before trying to come up with a reason as to why they just assumed he was dead. But that still doesn't explain why the characters who can't sense Ki didn't question why the wish they had just made seconds ago didn't bring back Gohan, e.g. Bulma, Chi Chi, Videl, #18, the Ox King, Puar and Kuririn's daughter who's name I forget.

In the manga, we don't see Goku teleporting them. There is an ellipse. So, we don't know how long it took them to give their hands. And once we see them at the lookout (we don't know how long they have been there), Goku tells them about Gohan's death only when they're surprised by his absence. So, it's not only seconds that have elapsed but minutes. How many ? We cannot know.

But Goku could merely be on about himself and Vegeta when he says this. He says "we" but we have no clue whether he's implying anybody but him and Vegeta. Also I don't believe somebody would use "we" if the other people he was mentioning weren't in close proximity. If he were on about himself, Vegeta, Gohan and the kids too Goku would have said "Let's train so that this time for sure us and the kids won't lose even if we go one-on-one." Also I suggest you note the use of the word "again," this suggests to me that Goku was actually only on about himself and Vegeta because they were the only ones to fight Pure Boo. Also the fact that he says "we and everyone else" there is just no mistaking that by we he means himself and Vegeta.

Yes, you could be right. But that's not the point. The problem is that Vegeta is asking Goku how they would prevent the end of the world. Goku replies that the solution is to fight again and they have to train. He didn't say " all we have to do is to bring Gohan so that he destroys Boo ". Here again, he doesn't say directly Gohan is no match, but this is implied.

I'm not sure I'm following what you are trying to say. Of course the difference in strength between these three can't exceed South Kaioshin's strength. But why does that matter with Gotenks SSJ multiplier?

You said base Gotenks is at least on par with SS2 Goku. So, if you apply the same multipliers, Gotenks SS3 would be overwhelmingly stronger than Goku SS3. And, considering that Evil Boo is on the same level as Gotenks SS3 and that Goku SS3 rivals Pure Boo, the power gap between Evil Boo and Pure Boo would be too much wide to find consistent figures.

You're also not taking into consideration how strong the South Kaioshin's strength probably is. If Pure Boo had to absorb South Kaioshin then the South Kaioshin would have had to be given Pure Boo a tough time to back him into the corner of absorbing him. That puts South Kaioshin on at least SSJ3 Goku's level of power. So Buff Boo would be something like Pure Boo + SSJ3 Goku's level of power.

Who said Pure Boo was forced to absorb South Kaioshin ? Later, he absorbed Dai Kaioshin who is inevitably weaker. Nothing suggests South Kaioshin was so strong.
Secondly, I don't think a Kaioshin could be that strong, considering no one ever pulled out the Z sword.

[Draken]

Who said Pure Boo was forced to absorb South Kaioshin ? Later, he absorbed Dai Kaioshin who is inevitably weaker. Nothing suggests South Kaioshin was so strong.
Secondly, I don't think a Kaioshin could be that strong, considering no one ever pulled out the Z sword.

Well iirc South Kaioshin was the "biggest and burliest" and the strongest Kaioshin at the time and he put up a decent fight to Buu, to the point that he decided to absorb him. And (I'm on my phone so can't pull out exact quotes) it was later said the enjoyed the power boost so much he did it again on Dai Kaioshin Buu without knowing it'd weaken his power.

[hleV]

Well iirc South Kaioshin was the "biggest and burliest" and the strongest Kaioshin at the time and he put up a decent fight to Buu, to the point that he decided to absorb him. And (I'm on my phone so can't pull out exact quotes) it was later said the enjoyed the power boost so much he did it again on Dai Kaioshin Buu without knowing it'd weaken his power.

Actually there's no evidence that South Kaioshin put up a fight with Pure Boo (but I'm not saying that he didn't!), all we know is that first, Pure Boo absorbed South Kaioshin and became "that huge Boo". After that, he absorbed Dai Kaioshin and became Fat Boo.

[Hitiro]

It seems you didn't understand what I meant. As soon as they raise their hands, they're drained of energy. This is confirmed by Kibitoshin not being able to teleport after he sent his ki. So, since they have no stamina/power left, they can't fight anymore. That's why it's useless to bring them.

Not really, only the Genki portion of their ki was drained when they offered their energy. Just because Kibitoshin was not able to teleport anymore doesn't mean all his ki was gone. Just all the Genki component of his ki. This can be backed up as when only Gohan, the kids and the rest of Goku's friends offered Goku their Genki it didn't amount to much. Goku even says their energy isn't nearly enough to beat Pure Boo. I find it unlikely that if the Genki Dama took all of Gohan's ki that it wouldn't be enough or close to what they'd need to defeat Pure Boo. Even if you're making out Gohan is weaker than SSJ3 Goku and Pure Boo he wouldn't be that far behind. Therefore it is more than likely that the Genki portion of ki is what is taken which would only make up a small percentage of whatever other ki exists. Kibitioshin not being able to teleport just tells us that his teleportation technique requires Genki, which he didn't have. It doesn't mean he's used up all his ki.

He just said "There's only one way !" We really don't know what he's trying to say. One way for you to escape ? One way to survive ? to win ? to fight (this one seems to be the most logical cause he says right after "make me immortal so I can fight them")?
You're saying he'd eventually win but I already explained to you why the fact he can't die doesn't necessarily mean he would win.

I'm sorry, but if he isn't implying he could win if he was immortal then why would he suggest it? Of course it can be for his own personal gain but if he's going to be defeated then they would just keep him as a prisoner and torture him because he'd never die anyway. I really don't think he was implying they should make him immortal unless he thought he could win.

The real evidence is the fact they didn't bring them. This sentence only supports this fact. Why didn't they bring them ? Because they can't beat Boo, this is what Goku is implying. See ? There is no other reason.

That isn't evidence at all, Goku wouldn't have thought Vegeta was thinking about bringing the boys back to life to fight if he didn't think they could beat them. No where does Goku say, "Ah, well I guess the Genki Dama is the better option. Its not like the boys could win." You're just making this decision purely on the fact that Vegeta said the Earthlings should save themselves for once.

In the manga, we don't see Goku teleporting them. There is an ellipse. So, we don't know how long it took them to give their hands. And once we see them at the lookout (we don't know how long they have been there), Goku tells them about Gohan's death only when they're surprised by his absence. So, it's not only seconds that have elapsed but minutes. How many ? We cannot know.

One of the first questions we see when it cuts back to them at the lookout is from Chi Chi asking where Gohan and Goten are. Do you really think they had been there for that long without Chi Chi asking this question? And as for the length of time it took for them to give their hands I doubt Goku would have allowed them to idle about for long considering Fat Boo was going around destroying things.

Yes, you could be right. But that's not the point. The problem is that Vegeta is asking Goku how they would prevent the end of the world. Goku replies that the solution is to fight again and they have to train. He didn't say " all we have to do is to bring Gohan so that he destroys Boo ". Here again, he doesn't say directly Gohan is no match, but this is implied.

This is neither here nor there.

Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6
Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”
Note: it's also possible that by "that terrible Boo", Vegeta is referring to Pure Evil or Evil Boo.

Vegeta doesn't specify which Boo he's on about, he could very well be on about Evil Boo. And even if he's not what makes you believe that he isn't on about the scenario of destroying the world? If things play out badly and Gohan or Gotenks are indisposed like they were with Evil Boo then would be left to beat him? This is what Vegeta may be on about. Hence why he says "This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world!" he says "might", meaning this is a possibility; not a certainty. And considering the Fat Boo give birth to Evil Boo and not Kid Boo its more than likely Vegeta is talking about Evil Boo.

You said base Gotenks is at least on par with SS2 Goku. So, if you apply the same multipliers, Gotenks SS3 would be overwhelmingly stronger than Goku SS3. And, considering that Evil Boo is on the same level as Gotenks SS3 and that Goku SS3 rivals Pure Boo, the power gap between Evil Boo and Pure Boo would be too much wide to find consistent figures.

The inconsistency would still exist if you put Evil Boo as weaker than SSJ3 Goku. As it would completely destroy any reason to why he'd suggest they definitely can't beat Evil Boo. Whereas when Buff Boo turned into Pure Boo Goku said "We did it! This way we can manage something!" So are you telling me Boo went from being Evil Boo which you are arguing is weaker than the other two, but Goku tells Vegeta there is no way they can beat him without fusion. To being much much stronger when changes into Buff Boo, which they both Goku and Vegeta are worried about. And then weaker than the Buff Boo but still stronger than Evil Boo but Goku reckons they can manage something when he is Pure Boo? That makes a lot more contradictions than what I'm implying. And who's to say that absorbing the South Kaioshin worked by adding his power onto Pure Boo's? Perhaps it caused a weird increase. Boo has caused weird things to happen to other Kaioshin stuff like how the Potara earrings, a Kaioshin magic, don't work inside of Boo and pulls apart a permanent fusion?

Who said Pure Boo was forced to absorb South Kaioshin ? Later, he absorbed Dai Kaioshin who is inevitably weaker. Nothing suggests South Kaioshin was so strong.
Secondly, I don't think a Kaioshin could be that strong, considering no one ever pulled out the Z sword.

Then I'd like to hear from you as to the reason he absorbed South Kaioshin, if the South Kaioshin didn't represent any sort of trouble then why would Pure Boo be forced to absorb him when he just killed two other Kai's? He may have absorbed the Dai Kaioshin because after absorbing the South Kaioshin he realised he could increase his power further by absorbing him. Which back-fired. And who's to the South Kaioshin ever tried to pull it out? It never mentions specific people who have tried. Also in comparison to the other Kaioshin's the Dai Kaioshin was probably stronger than the other 3 given his title.

[GTx10]

I assumed it was because Gohan was useless to the fight. Goku's SS3 form surpassed Gohan's Ultimate form (I think) and he was the only one who could take out Pure Boo. If
And/or maybe Goku was afraid Boo would absorb Gohan, again??

[The Monkey King]

I guess Gohan stomping the shit out of Kid Buu would've made for a boring (well not so dramatic) ending because that's what would've happened:

Buff Boo > Evil Boo > Kid Buu
Gohan > Gotenks > Goku