How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Kamiccolo9]

I have to agree that the notion of Goku and Vegeta just instantly forgetting everything they've learned about ki-sensing and judging their enemies, to the point where they suddenly think they can take Pure Boo just because he's physically smaller... is completely asinine. There's no basis for that and no reasonable way to explain the characters suddenly becoming that boneheaded. You can't even write it off as just a setup to a gag like some things with Gotenks.

Like it or not, that "we can take him now" line is and only is evidence towards Pure Boo now being weaker than before. There's no way to twist it into supporting anything else that doesn't come off as super-obvious and illogical stretching.

The why would Vegeta us "we" assuming that he was weaker than Even the f=FatBuu was. Actually, Vegeta was confident at the Idea of fighting Superbuu before Goku corrected him. Vegeta, having seen SSJ3 in the afterlife is confident that Goku can beat Buu - in essentially any form.

We don't know that Vegeta saw Super Saiyan 3. He didn't have a body, so he probably didn't sense it. For all we know, Emna just told Vegeta what happened when he gave Vegeta his body back.
And Pure Buu was suppressed at the beginning. Maybe his ki was lower than Fat Buu's when he first appeared. Both Pure and Fat Buu were SSJ3 tier fighters, so that's more than possible.

[Bussani]

We don't know that Vegeta saw Super Saiyan 3. He didn't have a body, so he probably didn't sense it. For all we know, Emna just told Vegeta what happened when he gave Vegeta his body back.

Vegeta says that he saw Super Saiyan 3 from the afterlife. He also says that he saw the Skinny Buu eat the Fat Buu at one point, so he could well have had his body all the way back then.

[Kamiccolo9]

We don't know that Vegeta saw Super Saiyan 3. He didn't have a body, so he probably didn't sense it. For all we know, Emna just told Vegeta what happened when he gave Vegeta his body back.

Vegeta says that he saw Super Saiyan 3 from the afterlife. He also says that he saw the Skinny Buu eat the Fat Buu at one point, so he could well have had his body all the way back then.

You know, I was scanning for the line where he said "You never told me about Super Saiyan 3," and totally ignored the one above it, where he said he saw it. Now I'm embarrassed
I still think the second part of my previous post is valid though.

[rereboy]

The why would Vegeta us "we" assuming that he was weaker than Even the f=FatBuu was. Actually, Vegeta was confident at the Idea of fighting Superbuu before Goku corrected him. Vegeta, having seen SSJ3 in the afterlife is confident that Goku can beat Buu - in essentially any form.

Even if that was true, Vegeta was relieved and more confident when Kid Buu appeared, which would mean that he is even more confident that they can win against Kid Buu than he was against the previous Buu.

[Draken]

I have to agree that the notion of Goku and Vegeta just instantly forgetting everything they've learned about ki-sensing and judging their enemies, to the point where they suddenly think they can take Pure Boo just because he's physically smaller... is completely asinine. There's no basis for that and no reasonable way to explain the characters suddenly becoming that boneheaded. You can't even write it off as just a setup to a gag like some things with Gotenks.

Like it or not, that "we can take him now" line is and only is evidence towards Pure Boo now being weaker than before. There's no way to twist it into supporting anything else that doesn't come off as super-obvious and illogical stretching.

The why would Vegeta us "we" assuming that he was weaker than Even the f=FatBuu was. Actually, Vegeta was confident at the Idea of fighting Superbuu before Goku corrected him. Vegeta, having seen SSJ3 in the afterlife is confident that Goku can beat Buu - in essentially any form.

Vegeta was totally confident Goku could take on Buuhan wasn't he? . Or even plain old Super Buu. Against Super Buu, he was confident at first, then relented when Goku admitted he stood no chance still. Against Kid Buu, Vegeta's confidence never wavered (at least until Goku dropped to base anyways...)

[Kaboom]

The why would Vegeta us "we" assuming that he was weaker than Even the f=FatBuu was. Actually, Vegeta was confident at the Idea of fighting Superbuu before Goku corrected him. Vegeta, having seen SSJ3 in the afterlife is confident that Goku can beat Buu - in essentially any form.

Perhaps Pure Boo's power was something that Vegeta could contend with at first, in those few initial post-transformation moments, until Boo got serious later and proved himself several times stronger and an even match for SSj3 Goku.

[Godo]

Myself, the only reason to why I believe that Pure Buu is weaker than Super Buu is the line "He has shrunk, good".
It's a shonen manga, and an uncomplicated one as far as power goes, as well as fights.
This and no contradiction as to how a Ssj3 can take him down in full power, as well as Fat Buu being able to be defeated by a Ssj3' and how Goku and Vegeta had to fuse to have a chance against Super Buu (as well as the line after they defused "we can't take him on like this") is pretty clear to me.
All of these thoughts were naturally interpreted as such in the manga, with my young brain (at that time), of which the manga was written for, seeing these as such.
Jumping back and forth between the deeper interpretations of quotes, single panels thrown together, this and that won't make good. The story wasn't written like that to have to be picked apart to make sense. It's written for young boys.
If Goku is confident he can beat someone, he has the power to beat the guy. If he isn't, he is outclassed.
Shonen, guys.
That's all.

Kisses

Godo

[Amuro Ray]

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

I don't understand what so hard to grasp about foreshadowing - Vegeta, in his typically arrogant fashion underestimates Buu and Goku doesn't correct him. The next page we then see the Supreme Kai in absolute fear, stating that while this Buu doesn't look like much, he's the worst one of the bunch. We finally have Goku (now in the realm of the Kai's) confident enough to fight Buu - he's given everyone else a shot, now it's his turn.

For me as a reader, that strongly implies that Goku is not only the strongest, but this Buu is the most powerful of all his forms. The only people who are disagreeing are those who don't want to admit their wrong, or never had a lesson literary devices.

And for the record, doesn't the anime interpret this situation in exactly the same manner? Just food for thought.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

I don't understand what so hard to grasp about foreshadowing - Vegeta, in his typically arrogant fashion underestimates Buu and Goku doesn't correct him. The next page we then see the Supreme Kai in absolute fear, stating that while this Buu doesn't look like much, he's the worst one of the bunch. We finally have Goku (now in the realm of the Kai's) confident enough to fight Buu - he's given everyone else a shot, now it's his turn.

For me as a reader, that strongly implies that Goku is not only the strongest, but this Buu is the most powerful of all his forms. The only people who are disagreeing are those who don't want to admit their wrong, or never had a lesson literary devices.

And for the record, doesn't the anime interpret this situation in exactly the same manner? Just food for thought.

Then why doesn't Goku just stomp Buu after he absorbs Gohan? He's already killed nearly everyone else on the planet, all the other fighters are either absorbed or dead, why is he still desperate for fusion? If Goku was stronger, that would be the obvious time to finish Buu off.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, you believe that Pure Boo is stronger than Gohan Boo?

[Amuro Ray]

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

I don't understand what so hard to grasp about foreshadowing - Vegeta, in his typically arrogant fashion underestimates Buu and Goku doesn't correct him. The next page we then see the Supreme Kai in absolute fear, stating that while this Buu doesn't look like much, he's the worst one of the bunch. We finally have Goku (now in the realm of the Kai's) confident enough to fight Buu - he's given everyone else a shot, now it's his turn.

For me as a reader, that strongly implies that Goku is not only the strongest, but this Buu is the most powerful of all his forms. The only people who are disagreeing are those who don't want to admit their wrong, or never had a lesson literary devices.

And for the record, doesn't the anime interpret this situation in exactly the same manner? Just food for thought.

Then why doesn't Goku just stomp Buu after he absorbs Gohan? He's already killed nearly everyone else on the planet, all the other fighters are either absorbed or dead, why is he still desperate for fusion? If Goku was stronger, that would be the obvious time to finish Buu off.

That's not what I'm saying and you know it. Pure (Kid) Buu is stronger than all the other forms, including "Fat"buu and "SuperBuu"

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

I don't understand what so hard to grasp about foreshadowing - Vegeta, in his typically arrogant fashion underestimates Buu and Goku doesn't correct him. The next page we then see the Supreme Kai in absolute fear, stating that while this Buu doesn't look like much, he's the worst one of the bunch. We finally have Goku (now in the realm of the Kai's) confident enough to fight Buu - he's given everyone else a shot, now it's his turn.

For me as a reader, that strongly implies that Goku is not only the strongest, but this Buu is the most powerful of all his forms. The only people who are disagreeing are those who don't want to admit their wrong, or never had a lesson literary devices.

And for the record, doesn't the anime interpret this situation in exactly the same manner? Just food for thought.

Then why doesn't Goku just stomp Buu after he absorbs Gohan? He's already killed nearly everyone else on the planet, all the other fighters are either absorbed or dead, why is he still desperate for fusion? If Goku was stronger, that would be the obvious time to finish Buu off.

That's not what I'm saying and you know it. Pure (Kid) Buu is stronger than all the other forms, including "Fat"buu and "SuperBuu"

Don't presume to tell me what I know. I was just answering what you said: "most powerful of all his forms." Goku didn't just "not correct" Vegeta, he agreed with him. Unless you're assuming that both Goku and Vegeta have degenerated from being two of the most brilliant and skilled fighters in the universe to just idiotically assuming that Pure Buu was weaker simply because of his size, and that they had stupidly decided to stop sensing his ki, even though they were sensing it seconds ago, then it makes no sense for them to say that they can handle Buu now.
They know from experience (Freeza and Cell) that smaller size doesn't equal lower power, so why would they assume so with Buu?
If anything, the fact that Vegeta says they can handle him, and Goku agreeing, would seem to imply to me that, at least when he first appeared, Pure Buu was displaying power similar to what Fat Buu displayed when he first awoke. Obviously, he got stronger later, but I'm just referring to when he first appeared.

[Amuro Ray]

Don't presume to tell me what I know. I was just answering what you said: "most powerful of all his forms." Goku didn't just "not correct" Vegeta, he agreed with him. Unless you're assuming that both Goku and Vegeta have degenerated from being two of the most brilliant and skilled fighters in the universe to just idiotically assuming that Pure Buu was weaker simply because of his size, and that they had stupidly decided to stop sensing his ki, even though they were sensing it seconds ago, then it makes no sense for them to say that they can handle Buu now.
They know from experience (Freeza and Cell) that smaller size doesn't equal lower power, so why would they assume so with Buu?
If anything, the fact that Vegeta says they can handle him, and Goku agreeing, would seem to imply to me that, at least when he first appeared, Pure Buu was displaying power similar to what Fat Buu displayed when he first awoke. Obviously, he got stronger later, but I'm just referring to when he first appeared.

This has happened in DBZ many times over - From Freeza to Cell to Manjin Buu. Goku even admitted in the beginning that Manjin Buu's power is like "a lie" and we have the Supreme Kai giving us a backround on how powerful this foe could potentially be.

[AnimeMaakuo]

.

[Kamiccolo9]

Don't presume to tell me what I know. I was just answering what you said: "most powerful of all his forms." Goku didn't just "not correct" Vegeta, he agreed with him. Unless you're assuming that both Goku and Vegeta have degenerated from being two of the most brilliant and skilled fighters in the universe to just idiotically assuming that Pure Buu was weaker simply because of his size, and that they had stupidly decided to stop sensing his ki, even though they were sensing it seconds ago, then it makes no sense for them to say that they can handle Buu now.
They know from experience (Freeza and Cell) that smaller size doesn't equal lower power, so why would they assume so with Buu?
If anything, the fact that Vegeta says they can handle him, and Goku agreeing, would seem to imply to me that, at least when he first appeared, Pure Buu was displaying power similar to what Fat Buu displayed when he first awoke. Obviously, he got stronger later, but I'm just referring to when he first appeared.

This has happened in DBZ many times over - From Freeza to Cell to Manjin Buu. Goku even admitted in the beginning that Manjin Buu's power is like "a lie" and we have the Supreme Kai giving us a backround on how powerful this foe could potentially be.

No one thought that Freeza was weaker in his final form. Krillin just said that he was "less tall and less frightening." With Cell, he was suppressed, and Vegeta merely mentioned that his Perfect Form wasn't that impressive. The difference here is, after Cell actually starts fighting, Vegeta know he can't win without resorting to the Final Flash. With Pure Buu, even after he powers up, Goku still thinks he can win. And who cares what Kibitoshin thought of Buu's power? This is the same guy who thought that Vegeta would have trouble with Pui-Pui.

[Amuro Ray]

Don't presume to tell me what I know. I was just answering what you said: "most powerful of all his forms." Goku didn't just "not correct" Vegeta, he agreed with him. Unless you're assuming that both Goku and Vegeta have degenerated from being two of the most brilliant and skilled fighters in the universe to just idiotically assuming that Pure Buu was weaker simply because of his size, and that they had stupidly decided to stop sensing his ki, even though they were sensing it seconds ago, then it makes no sense for them to say that they can handle Buu now.
They know from experience (Freeza and Cell) that smaller size doesn't equal lower power, so why would they assume so with Buu?
If anything, the fact that Vegeta says they can handle him, and Goku agreeing, would seem to imply to me that, at least when he first appeared, Pure Buu was displaying power similar to what Fat Buu displayed when he first awoke. Obviously, he got stronger later, but I'm just referring to when he first appeared.

This has happened in DBZ many times over - From Freeza to Cell to Manjin Buu. Goku even admitted in the beginning that Manjin Buu's power is like "a lie" and we have the Supreme Kai giving us a backround on how powerful this foe could potentially be.

No one thought that Freeza was weaker in his final form. Krillin just said that he was "less tall and less frightening." With Cell, he was suppressed, and Vegeta merely mentioned that his Perfect Form wasn't that impressive. The difference here is, after Cell actually starts fighting, Vegeta know he can't win without resorting to the Final Flash. With Pure Buu, even after he powers up, Goku still thinks he can win. And who cares what Kibitoshin thought of Buu's power? This is the same guy who thought that Vegeta would have trouble with Pui-Pui.

When did Buu power up? When did Vegeta recant his statement? It seems to me that you want to make a distinction between those situations and this one, and there really isn't any. Many times people underestimate thier opponenet, this situation is no different. Kibitio Kai's explaination is a prime example of foreshadowing what would happen next.

[Pan-Pan]

Vegeta did say that Cell's final form wasn't very impressive, but he was suppressing his power at that point.

And Pure Boo was suppressing his power too.
Also, you forgot about Goku judging he can't knock back Boo's ball based on its size.

Oh, or that Vegeta somehow forgot how powerful Freeza was despite his size, and suddenly he would underestimate a small opponent, totally forgetting to actually sense his power, not only for a moment, but for the whole entire fight with him since Vegeta's opinion never changed even as they fought him.

Vegeta doesn't have a scouter in the head to precisely measure, register and compare battle powers. It's beyond him. And I'm under the impression that he has his head in the clouds. Goku lied when he said they would be killed by Super Boo. Vegeta doesn't know Pure Boo is stronger because he was suppressing his ki. Goku said he can handle Pure Boo, but Vegeta doesn't know Goku lied inside Boo. Vegeta thought he could fight Boo alone, later admit he would have been killed because he underestimated this Boo. Then he thought Goku was holding back against Boo to spare his feelings (so, maybe he thought Goku lied on his capacity to defeat Super Boo in order to spare his feelings too), assumed Goku and Boo were stronger than he thought. And after that, he got slapped by Boo and realized he was even stronger. I feel he's in the dark.

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta did say that Cell's final form wasn't very impressive, but he was suppressing his power at that point.

And Pure Boo was suppressing his power too.
Also, you forgot about Goku judging he can't knock back Boo's ball based on its size.

Oh, or that Vegeta somehow forgot how powerful Freeza was despite his size, and suddenly he would underestimate a small opponent, totally forgetting to actually sense his power, not only for a moment, but for the whole entire fight with him since Vegeta's opinion never changed even as they fought him.

Vegeta doesn't have a scouter in the head to precisely measure, register and compare battle powers. It's beyond him. And I'm under the impression that he has his head in the clouds. Goku lied when he said they would be killed by Super Boo. Vegeta doesn't know Pure Boo is stronger because he was suppressing his ki. Goku said he can handle Pure Boo, but Vegeta doesn't know Goku lied inside Boo. Vegeta thought he could fight Boo alone, later admit he would have been killed because he underestimated this Boo. Then he thought Goku was holding back against Boo to spare his feelings (so, maybe he thought Goku lied on his capacity to defeat Super Boo in order to spare his feelings too), assumed Goku and Boo were stronger than he thought. And after that, he got slapped by Boo and realized he was even stronger. I feel he's in the dark.

Did you not read the rest of my post? Even after Pure Buu stopped suppressing his power, Goku still thought that he could beat him.
Why would Goku lie about Super Buu being able to kill them? Honestly, what would he have to gain from lying to Vegeta at this point? With Pure Buu, it's different. He knows that he could beat Pure Buu by using his full power in Super Saiyan 3 at any time, so he can afford to humor Vegeta. It's only after Goku realizes that he can't effectively utilize SSJ3 in a living body that he starts to get desperate.
Vegeta could have just thought that he was superior to intitial Pure Buu. They didn't know how strong he really was until he started fighting, but even then, they still thought that Goku could take him.

[Hitiro]

And Pure Boo was suppressing his power too.
Also, you forgot about Goku judging he can't knock back Boo's ball based on its size.

Size of a ki attack and size of an individual are two different things though. We know the size of a ki attack usually means its strong. We also know that characters who can sense ki don't judge an individual on their size unless their ki is heavily suppressed. Even if this is the case, the fact remains that Goku was still able to fight on par with Pure Boo as a SSJ3. Whereas he stated there is no way they can beat Evil Boo unless they fuse or find a way to weaken Evil Boo further.

Vegeta doesn't have a scouter in the head to precisely measure, register and compare battle powers. It's beyond him. And I'm under the impression that he has his head in the clouds. Goku lied when he said they would be killed by Super Boo. Vegeta doesn't know Pure Boo is stronger because he was suppressing his ki. Goku said he can handle Pure Boo, but Vegeta doesn't know Goku lied inside Boo. Vegeta thought he could fight Boo alone, later admit he would have been killed because he underestimated this Boo. Then he thought Goku was holding back against Boo to spare his feelings (so, maybe he thought Goku lied on his capacity to defeat Super Boo in order to spare his feelings too), assumed Goku and Boo were stronger than he thought. And after that, he got slapped by Boo and realized he was even stronger. I feel he's in the dark.

Vegeta may not be able to sense ki and get a precise measure in his head like he could with a scouter against a unsuppressed foe. But Vegeta knows if someone can beat the other person. He know Goku couldn't win against Cell when they fought. He knew himself and Goku could beat Pui-Pui, Yakon and Dabura. There is simply no reason for Goku to lie inside Boo, Vegeta had already witnessed SSJ3; they had no back up for fighting against Evil Boo as the boys were unconscious and Vegeta would not do the fusion dance. If you think Goku lied about not being able to fight Evil Boo to spare Vegeta's feelings then why didn't Goku lie with Pure Boo and say he couldn't beat him either? Goku openly says before he starts fighting Pure Boo:

“Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

Do you think this is sparing Vegeta's feelings too seeing as Vegeta couldn't even handle Fat Boo? There is just simply no reason for Goku to lie about not being able to beat Evil Boo. Especially with no back-up plan to deal with the problem like when he lied about being able to beat Fat Boo as there were always the kids who could have defeated him.

[Amuro Ray]

Vegeta did say that Cell's final form wasn't very impressive, but he was suppressing his power at that point.

And Pure Boo was suppressing his power too.
Also, you forgot about Goku judging he can't knock back Boo's ball based on its size.

Oh, or that Vegeta somehow forgot how powerful Freeza was despite his size, and suddenly he would underestimate a small opponent, totally forgetting to actually sense his power, not only for a moment, but for the whole entire fight with him since Vegeta's opinion never changed even as they fought him.

Vegeta doesn't have a scouter in the head to precisely measure, register and compare battle powers. It's beyond him. And I'm under the impression that he has his head in the clouds. Goku lied when he said they would be killed by Super Boo. Vegeta doesn't know Pure Boo is stronger because he was suppressing his ki. Goku said he can handle Pure Boo, but Vegeta doesn't know Goku lied inside Boo. Vegeta thought he could fight Boo alone, later admit he would have been killed because he underestimated this Boo. Then he thought Goku was holding back against Boo to spare his feelings (so, maybe he thought Goku lied on his capacity to defeat Super Boo in order to spare his feelings too), assumed Goku and Boo were stronger than he thought. And after that, he got slapped by Boo and realized he was even stronger. I feel he's in the dark.

Did you not read the rest of my post? Even after Pure Buu stopped suppressing his power, Goku still thought that he could beat him.
Why would Goku lie about Super Buu being able to kill them? Honestly, what would he have to gain from lying to Vegeta at this point? With Pure Buu, it's different. He knows that he could beat Pure Buu by using his full power in Super Saiyan 3 at any time, so he can afford to humor Vegeta. It's only after Goku realizes that he can't effectively utilize SSJ3 in a living body that he starts to get desperate.
Vegeta could have just thought that he was superior to intitial Pure Buu. They didn't know how strong he really was until he started fighting, but even then, they still thought that Goku could take him.

But your assuming that Goku was never could beat Superbuu - we are assuming the opposite. He's stronger than Superbuu and stronger than Purebuu

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

Notice the focus is on Goku, not Gohan.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

Notice Goku's motive is to preserve Vegeta in this plane of existance.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Here is the line everyone is fixated on, but is it because of their size they can't defeat Buu?

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

Buu's quote does imply such. At least when they were fused, they were strong enough to fight back, even as candy.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for a bit
Vegeta: “…Heh…You never intended to switch out, even from the beginning. Don’t spout such transparent lies…You knew…That I’d be killed at once.”
Goku: “Huh!? N-no, that’s not it…”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Don’t try sparing my feelings…The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…”

Here we see Goku has always considered Vegeta's pride, even in light that Buu is leagues stronger.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

Implies that Goku is stronger than the others.