How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Kamiccolo9]

I've always been of the opinion that the Z Sword was cursed to be unobtainable by Kaioshins. We later see Gohan swinging it in base, and Kibito, who should be around base Gohan's strength, or even somewhat stronger, was still not able to lift it, even after it was pulled out.

[Amuro Ray]

I've always been of the opinion that the Z Sword was cursed to be unobtainable by Kaioshins. We later see Gohan swinging it in base, and Kibito, who should be around base Gohan's strength, or even somewhat stronger, was still not able to lift it, even after it was pulled out.

Because he wasn't strong enough.

[Hitiro]

The manga doesn't say that he tried removing the Z Sword, and furthermore, why would he want/need to? The legend behind the Z Sword involves becoming the strongest in the universe, but what would a peace-loving Kaioushin need with being the strongest in the universe if his strength is already enough for the situations he deals with?

Then explain to me why the others Kaioshins tried. They were peaceful and much stronger than Freeza too. In general, when there is a legend, people are curious to see if the legend is true. Furthermore, the Z-sword would have been helpful to fight against Boo. I don't see any reason why South Kaioshin wouldn't have tried.

Like we know what kind of character he was anyway? Some people don't like borrowing strength from others. Not everybody cares to do things like pull swords out of stones to become the strongest in the universe. Some people like to earn their strength fair and square without having to rely on cheap tricks. You can't honestly say to us that the chances of the South Kaioshin trying to pull out the Z-Sword are 100% there are no certainties like that unless its stated.

Even knowing that Vegeta didn't want to fuse with him using either method, Goku still openly berated him for crushing the Potara when it came to facing Evil Buu, so when it came to Evil Buu, Goku was hoping that Vegeta would relent again.

All I see is that Goku berated Vegeta because it would've been much easier if they had fused.

Goku (talking to Vegeta): “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

This pertains to it being an easy victory with the Potara, yes. It doesn't explicitly state they could have won without them though. Or it doesn't pertain to what method they would use to obtain a victory despite it being much harder without the Potara. The fact is "easy victory" is just pointing to the Potara's effectiveness. Not "they can win, but it would be so much easier if they had the Potara."

Goku should have at least suggested they fuse again rather than let Vegeta try to stall him for a minute.

The potalas are broken and I doubt Boo would let them dance.

Considering Pure Boo was clowning about at this point I really don't see why they couldn't have at least tried. He wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing at the point. He only started paying attention when Vegeta flew towards him, before that he was wiggling his body like an imbecile.

I'm sorry but this is calling the kettle black. [...] That right there is a baseless opinion you're using to try and justify your own beliefs.

Ok, your assumption is baseless and so is mine. I guess we are equal. The difference is that you first used it as an argument, and I only argued against.

Incorrect, the argument I used first has a valid and plausible bases for being true. While it isn't a fact that Boo absorbed him because he was strong enough to force him to, it still has a basis as it can be one of the more plausible reasons as to why Pure Boo felt the need to absorb the South Kaioshin. The difference between my argument and yours is you used your argument to back up something that isn't a fact. Perhaps I'm not explaining this well, I feel I'm not anyway.

Here is what I'm trying to say:
South Kaioshin was absorbed by Pure Boo - FACT
^ My argument: South Kaioshin had to be strong enough to force Pure Boo into using such a desperate trick.

Now this is what you're trying to say:
Pure Boo is more powerful than Evil Boo - OPINION
^ Your argument: Gotenks SSJ multipliers don't work like an unfused Saiyan's.

You can see that my argument is based on a fact, it has a basis. Your argument however is based on your own opinion, this has no basis and you're trying to use it to strengthen your opinion further. I am forming an opinion from a fact, you are forming an opinion from an opinion. So long answer cut short, my opinion has a basis to work from. Your opinion is baseless as you are using your own opinion to validate another opinion.

It may not make sense for the South Kaioshin to not try removing the Z-Sword but you know there are mistakes in the manga, right? Akira Toriyama isn't infallible

You know your baseless assumption doesn't make sense but you think you're right all the same because, well, there are mistakes in the manga... No, it doesn't work like that.

I think I've answered why my assumption isn't baseless above. And I don't think my assumption is correct because there are mistakes in the manga. My assumption is just what it is, an assumption. However it does have a basis for being true unlike yours just because you want your other opinion to be correct.

When did Goku ever underestimate Pure Boo? I don't recall him saying such a thing. The only thing I remember Goku underestimating is the use of SSJ3 while he's alive.

Ok, he overestimated himself instead of underestimating Boo, which leads to the same result : Goku failed when he thought he could win.

And this matters why? Your argument was that he was underestimating Boo for various reasons, such as size, yet Goku wasn't underestimating him at all. He just wasn't aware of the affects SSJ3 had on a living body and thus couldn't finish Pure Boo. I think you're trying to dodge what you were implying by stating something entirely unrelated to why you made this point in the first place. You originally used this answer to justify why Goku wasn't more insistent on fusing with Vegeta than he was when they were on about Evil Boo. But Goku never underestimated Pure Boo, he was right on the money. So the whole "Goku wasn't that insistent because he was underestimating Pure Boo" statement kind of falls flat on its face really.

I don't see how it is useless, Vegeta rejected Goku's pleas for fusion numerous times and Goku still kept asking. Vegeta refused the Potara the first time only to agree on it when Goku told him about his family, he refused a second time inside Boo and then a further third time in Boo when Goku suggested the fusion dance. If Pure Boo was so much more powerful than Evil Boo then Goku would have lied again like you said.

Vegeta: “Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”

And you are quoting Vegeta why? This just proves that Goku still tried to get Vegeta to fuse with him even after being told he wouldn't merge with him a second time. All this proves is Goku is persistent.

[Kamiccolo9]

I've always been of the opinion that the Z Sword was cursed to be unobtainable by Kaioshins. We later see Gohan swinging it in base, and Kibito, who should be around base Gohan's strength, or even somewhat stronger, was still not able to lift it, even after it was pulled out.

Because he wasn't strong enough.

Says you. He's heavily implied to be at least Base Gohan level. And base Gohan was swinging the sword around.

[Amuro Ray]

I've always been of the opinion that the Z Sword was cursed to be unobtainable by Kaioshins. We later see Gohan swinging it in base, and Kibito, who should be around base Gohan's strength, or even somewhat stronger, was still not able to lift it, even after it was pulled out.

Because he wasn't strong enough.

Says you. He's heavily implied to be at least Base Gohan level. And base Gohan was swinging the sword around.

Gohan's level pre-Zsword. Again, not strong enough to lift the Z sword.

[Kamiccolo9]

You could be right. We don't know how much stronger Gohan got while swinging the Z sword around though.

[RandomGuy96]

Officially, yes, he is base Gohan level. And what you can lift =/= power level, gravity training proves that. And there's no evidence that the Southern Supreme Kai ever tried to remove the sword; not only was he not even thought up when that scene was made, but Kibito specifically said that he and numerous other Kaioshin failed to remove it. He didn't say all of the Kaioshin, or the strongest of the Kaioshin, or even most of the Kaioshin. All that statement proves is that more than one Kaioshin felt like trying to grab an old artifact one day.

I feel like it's very unlikely that he's not at least SS3-tier. Buu is known to absorb powerful opponents as a last resort when he's desperate. He comes across two gods and kills the immediately. Then when he gets to the third- who also happens to be strongest- he for some reason absorbs him instead. And remember; Kibito Kai said that the Southern Supreme Kai was "somehow" absorbed and in the same breath mentioned that he was the strongest of the Kais.

And you just gotta love the lengths to which some people will go to wank Goku and Kid Buu.

"Gotenks as a SS1 is confirmed to be much stronger than Goku as a SS2? That doesn't mean anything, the multipliers for them are different because I said so, even though nothing suggested it."

"The official guidebooks state that's not true? Fuck you, the guidebooks mean dick. My opinion > official material."

"Goku flat-out stated Super Buu > himself >= Kid Buu? He was lying for no reason. Once again I have no evidence for this- in fact the circumstances heavily contradict it- but I said it so it must be true."

"What's that you say? He sensed both Kid Buu and Super Buu, yet still decided he would get massacred by the latter and that he'd have a chance against the former? That's because he forgot how to sense ki. Yep."

"He also states Buff Buu > Kid Buu? Well that's because in that one instance in the Buu Saga, he went from sensing ki two seconds ago to entirely forgetting he could do so and then judging on size. He did that because I said he did that."

"Super Buu flat-out states that Gohan is the only one stronger than him, despite having seen SS3 Goku, both as Fat Buu and as Buutenks? That doesn't mean anything either, once again because I said so."

[Draken]

Who the hell enters an arguement thinking they are wrong?

Plenty of scientists and researchers. It's great to be proven wrong and then have gained a greater understanding in the process with new things to test and explore.

Several of you already have strikes against your accounts. I don't understand why it is you're insistent upon making it so that you can no longer participate in these discussions when you clearly get something out of being here and participating.

I think we have a civil discussion going on, why saber rattling?

Telling people they need to work on their reading comprehension and educate themselves so that it's on par with yours isn't exactly a civil conversation is it pal?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Officially, yes, he is base Gohan level. And what you can lift =/= power level, gravity training proves that. And there's no evidence that the Southern Supreme Kai ever tried to remove the sword; not only was he not even thought up when that scene was made, but Kibito specifically said that he and numerous other Kaioshin failed to remove it. He didn't say all of the Kaioshin, or the strongest of the Kaioshin, or even most of the Kaioshin. All that statement proves is that more than one Kaioshin felt like trying to grab an old artifact one day.

I feel like it's very unlikely that he's not at least SS3-tier. Buu is known to absorb powerful opponents as a last resort when he's desperate. He comes across two gods and kills the immediately. Then when he gets to the third- who also happens to be strongest- he for some reason absorbs him instead. And remember; Kibito Kai said that the Southern Supreme Kai was "somehow" absorbed and in the same breath mentioned that he was the strongest of the Kais.

And you just gotta love the lengths to which some people will go to wank Goku and Kid Buu.

"Gotenks as a SS1 is confirmed to be much stronger than Goku as a SS2? That doesn't mean anything, the multipliers for them are different because I said so, even though nothing suggested it."

"The official guidebooks states that's not true? Fuck you, the guidebooks mean dick. My opinion > official material."

"Goku flat-out stated Super Buu > himself >= Kid Buu? He was lying for no reason. Once again I have no evidence for this- in fact the circumstances heavily contradict it- but I said it so it must be true."

"What's that you say? He sensed both Kid Buu and Super Buu, yet still decided he would get massacred by the latter and that he'd have a chance against the former? That's because he forgot how to sense ki. Yep."

"He also states Buff Buu > Kid Buu? Well that's because in that one instance in the Buu Saga, he went from sensing ki two seconds ago to entirely forgetting he could do so and then judging on size. He did that because I said he did that."

"Super Buu flat-out states that Gohan is the only one stronger than him, despite having seen SS3 Goku, both as Fat Buu and as Buutenks? That doesn't mean anything either, once again because I said so."

Exactly.

[rereboy]

Officially, yes, he is base Gohan level. And what you can lift =/= power level, gravity training proves that. And there's no evidence that the Southern Supreme Kai ever tried to remove the sword; not only was he not even thought up when that scene was made, but Kibito specifically said that he and numerous other Kaioshin failed to remove it. He didn't say all of the Kaioshin, or the strongest of the Kaioshin, or even most of the Kaioshin. All that statement proves is that more than one Kaioshin felt like trying to grab an old artifact one day.

I feel like it's very unlikely that he's not at least SS3-tier. Buu is known to absorb powerful opponents as a last resort when he's desperate. He comes across two gods and kills the immediately. Then when he gets to the third- who also happens to be strongest- he for some reason absorbs him instead. And remember; Kibito Kai said that the Southern Supreme Kai was "somehow" absorbed and in the same breath mentioned that he was the strongest of the Kais.

And you just gotta love the lengths to which some people will go to wank Goku and Kid Buu.

"Gotenks as a SS1 is confirmed to be much stronger than Goku as a SS2? That doesn't mean anything, the multipliers for them are different because I said so, even though nothing suggested it."

"The official guidebooks states that's not true? Fuck you, the guidebooks mean dick. My opinion > official material."

"Goku flat-out stated Super Buu > himself >= Kid Buu? He was lying for no reason. Once again I have no evidence for this- in fact the circumstances heavily contradict it- but I said it so it must be true."

"What's that you say? He sensed both Kid Buu and Super Buu, yet still decided he would get massacred by the latter and that he'd have a chance against the former? That's because he forgot how to sense ki. Yep."

"He also states Buff Buu > Kid Buu? Well that's because in that one instance in the Buu Saga, he went from sensing ki two seconds ago to entirely forgetting he could do so and then judging on size. He did that because I said he did that."

"Super Buu flat-out states that Gohan is the only one stronger than him, despite having seen SS3 Goku, both as Fat Buu and as Buutenks? That doesn't mean anything either, once again because I said so."

Seems to be about right.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I think it's because Gokuu knew Gohan and Gotenks screw around too much and would get absorbed.

[sonikku956]

Vegeta doesn't feel like protecting the Earthlings for nothing, so he wants them to at least contribute to defeating the villain.

Then let the Human Z fighters help ou-

Oh wait. I forgot what series this is

[RandomGuy96]

Vegeta has never really protected the Earthlings. He's put them in danger way more times than he's helped, so he has no right to be demanding here.

And bringing Gohan to curbstomp Kid Buu would be the Earthlings winning their own fight. Gohan is half human and was born and raised on Earth.

[Amuro Ray]

I honestly don't know how to respond to some of the incorrect information posted in here (and there is a lot of it) But Buu never stated only Gohan was stronger - the boy are never stated to Surpass Goku *though the guidebooks do mention them surpassing Vegeta* and there was no mention of KidBuu's Ki changing - implying his power was on par with "buffbuu"

[rereboy]

I honestly don't know how to respond to some of the incorrect information posted in here (and there is a lot of it)

Keep telling yourself that. Perhaps it will come true.

[RandomGuy96]

I honestly don't know how to respond to some of the incorrect information posted in here (and there is a lot of it) But Buu never stated only Gohan was stronger - the boy are never stated to Surpass Goku *though the guidebooks do mention them surpassing Vegeta* and there was no mention of KidBuu's Ki changing - implying his power was on par with "buffbuu"

Now you're using the guidebooks, huh? Because if you do believe them, SS1 Gotenks > SS2 Goku is completely unavoidable, unless you assume Piccolo is an idiot and Goku is an idiot AND an asshole who hates his son.

And here we have a classic example of a Goku whanker using a common argument. "He also states Buff Buu > Kid Buu? Well that's because in that one instance in the Buu Saga, he went from sensing ki two seconds ago to entirely forgetting he could do so and then judging on size. He did that because I said he did that."

Also, on Super Buu only saying Gohan was stronger:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4
Boo: “Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power…I won’t allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine…”

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

He says both of these things after encountering and battling Gotenks. He wouldn't be so worried about someone being stronger than him if there was already a guy stronger than him. Or two, according to you.

[Amuro Ray]

I honestly don't know how to respond to some of the incorrect information posted in here (and there is a lot of it) But Buu never stated only Gohan was stronger - the boy are never stated to Surpass Goku *though the guidebooks do mention them surpassing Vegeta* and there was no mention of KidBuu's Ki changing - implying his power was on par with "buffbuu"

Now you're using the guidebooks, huh? Because if you do believe them, SS1 Gotenks > SS2 Goku is completely unavoidable, unless you assume Piccolo is an idiot and Goku is an idiot AND an asshole who hates his son.

And here we have a classic example of a Goku whanker using a common argument. "He also states Buff Buu > Kid Buu? Well that's because in that one instance in the Buu Saga, he went from sensing ki two seconds ago to entirely forgetting he could do so and then judging on size. He did that because I said he did that."

Also, on Super Buu only saying Gohan was stronger:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4
Boo: “Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power…I won’t allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine…”

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

He says both of these things after encountering and battling Gotenks.

First - watch what you say to me, and how you say it.
And second, I'm well aware of the quotes - but at no time does it mention Gohan being the absolute strongest and at this point, we still haven't seen Goku's full SSJ3 potential. As far as Buu knows, Goku is dead and he's going to stay that way.

[RandomGuy96]

First - watch what you say to me, and how you say it.

I am showing the same tact to you that you have shown to others. "Your theory is weak on so many levels that it can't even begin to make logical sense."

And second, I'm well aware of the quotes - but at no time does it mention Gohan being the absolute strongest and at this point, we still haven't seen Goku's full SSJ3 potential. As far as Buu knows, Goku is dead and he's going to stay that way.

The point is, he still says the only person stronger than him is Gohan. And if you believe in the guidebooks like you say you do, Gotenks being over twice as strong as Goku is completely unavoidable, unless you assume both Piccolo and Goku are complete assholes/idiots who wanted to get the kids killed by sending them against the guy who effortlessly demolished Majin Vegeta when they thought their max was SS1. You also have to assume that Goten and Trunks are both suicidal for going with the plan.

I mean, there REALLY is no way around Goku saying that SS1 Gotenks would succeed where SS2 Majin Vegeta failed.

[Amuro Ray]

First - watch what you say to me, and how you say it.

I am showing the same tact to you that you have shown to others. "Your theory is weak on so many levels that it can't even begin to make logical sense."

And second, I'm well aware of the quotes - but at no time does it mention Gohan being the absolute strongest and at this point, we still haven't seen Goku's full SSJ3 potential. As far as Buu knows, Goku is dead and he's going to stay that way.

The point is, he still says the only person stronger than him is Gohan. And if you believe in the guidebooks like you say you do, Gotenks being over twice as strong as Goku is completely unavoidable, unless you assume both Piccolo and Goku are complete assholes/idiots who wanted to get the kids killed by sending them against the guy who effortlessly demolished Majin Vegeta when they thought their max was SS1.

Actually, the guidebooks state Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, not Goku. We've been through this, you might want to go back a few pages and catch up.


Oh and you're not me - while it's flattering that you try to imitate me, I do it better.

[RandomGuy96]

It doesn't say Goku is stronger than Gotenks either. But the guides do give us the Super Saiyan multipliers, and again, unless Trunks and Goten are suicidal, Piccolo is an idiot, and Goku is an asshole who likes to kill kids, SS Gotenks is stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta, who's equal to SS2 Goku. Therefore Gotenks is over twice as strong as Goku- waaaaay over twice as strong actually, since Goku was sure he'd beat the guy who annihilated Vegeta (and Gohan and Kaioshin, but who cares about them?). This is really simple:

Goku states and it's shown that his SS2 form is equal to Majin Vegeta's SS2 form.

It's plainly shown that Majin Vegeta's SS2 form is inferior to Fat Buu.

Goku states that Gotenks' SS form should be superior to Fat Buu.

Goku states he's far inferior to Super Buu.

Goku states that he can beat Kid Buu.

Piccolo states Gotenks and Super Buu are on par.

How much more simple do power statements really get? One of them even flat out says "[Goku and Vegeta] are simply no match for [Super Buu]'s power!". You'd have to assume every line of dialogue Goku ever said about his and Gotenks' power was false for no reason, and then give him higher SS multipliers than everyone else for no reason.