How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Amuro Ray]

It doesn't say Goku is stronger than Gotenks either. But the guides do give us the Super Saiyan multipliers, and again, unless Trunks and Goten are suicidal, Piccolo is an idiot, and Goku is an asshole who likes to kill kids, SS Gotenks is stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta, who's equal to SS2 Goku. Therefore Gotenks is over twice as strong as Goku- waaaaay over twice as strong actually, since Goku was sure he'd beat the guy who annihilated Vegeta (and Gohan and Kaioshin, but who cares about them?). This is really simple:

Goku states and it's shown that his SS2 form is equal to Majin Vegeta's SS2 form.

It's plainly shown that Majin Vegeta's SS2 form is inferior to Fat Buu.

Goku states that Gotenks' SS form should be superior to Fat Buu.

Goku states he's far inferior to Super Buu.

Goku states that he can beat Kid Buu.

Piccolo states Gotenks and Super Buu are on par.

How much more simple do power statements really get? You'd have to assume every line of dialogue Goku ever said about his and Gotenks' power was false for no reason, and then give him higher SS multipliers than everyone else for no reason.

Actually Goku never states ANY estimate for Gotenks power outside "they should be able to beat him (Buu)" In which it is later revealed that Goku wasn't sure and was gambling in favor of the boys. All we know is that the boys were initially no match for Buu in any form besides SSj3

[RandomGuy96]

He estimated that Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Buu. That seems pretty clear cut.

It was a gamble he was sure about. Do I even need to bring up the quotes again? And a gamble implies a chance at success. If SS Gotenks was weaker than SS2 Majin Vegeta, it wouldn't be a gamble, it would just be Goku murdering his son and his son's friend.

[rereboy]

Actually, the guidebooks state Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, not Goku. We've been through this, you might want to go back a few pages and catch up.


Oh and you're not me - while it's flattering that you try to imitate me, I do it better.

Vegeta is stated to be exactly equal to Goku after his majin power-up. The only difference is that Goku could go SSJ3. So, to Goku to believe that SSJ Gotenks would succeed in defeating Fat Buu, or at least have a shot at doing, he has to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, who is equal to SSJ2 Goku. And this is before Gotenks trains in ROSAT.

And nobody wants to be like you, don't worry.

Actually Goku never states ANY estimate for Gotenks power outside "they should be able to beat him (Buu)" In which it is later revealed that Goku wasn't sure and was gambling in favor of the boys. All we know is that the boys were initially no match for Buu in any form besides SSj3

AKA, they at least have a shot of defeating Fat Buu, which means they have to be stronger in their SSJ than SSJ2 Vegeta at least.

[Amuro Ray]

Actually, the guidebooks state Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, not Goku. We've been through this, you might want to go back a few pages and catch up.


Oh and you're not me - while it's flattering that you try to imitate me, I do it better.

Vegeta is stated to be exactly equal to Goku after his majin power-up. The only difference is that Goku could go SSJ3. So, to Goku to believe that SSJ Gotenks would succeed in defeating Fat Buu, or at least have a shot at doing, he has to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, who is equal to SSJ2 Goku. And this is before Gotenks trains in ROSAT.

And nobody wants to be like you, don't worry.

And again - Goku was just guessing. He was also wrong. The Guidebooks states that the boys weren't able to surpass Vegeta until after the Rosat training, essentially saying they are Above SSJ2 Vegeta but below Gohan and Goku.

And believe me, my feelings aren't hurt.

[Amuro Ray]

He estimated that Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Buu. That seems pretty clear cut.

It was a gamble he was sure about. Do I even need to bring up the quotes again? And a gamble implies a chance at success. If SS Gotenks was weaker than SS2 Majin Vegeta, it wouldn't be a gamble, it would just be Goku murdering his son and his son's friend.

And a gamble also implies a chance of failure - have you ever gambled before? Even Goku admits that it's "crazy."

[rereboy]

And a gamble also implies a chance of failure - have you ever gambled before? Even Goku admits that it's "crazy."

Goku knew how strong Vegeta was and knew that he was hopeless agaisnt Buu. For him to be confident that SSJ Gotenks at least has a shot of defeating Buu, it means that he believes that SSJ Gotenks will be stronger than SSJ 2 Vegeta. Simple, really, at least to anyone who isn't determined to deny it.

[Pan-Pan]

You can't honestly say to us that the chances of the South Kaioshin trying to pull out the Z-Sword are 100% there are no certainties like that unless its stated.

Sure, but it's very unlikely he didn't.

Incorrect, the argument I used first has a valid and plausible bases for being true. While it isn't a fact that Boo absorbed him because he was strong enough to force him to, it still has a basis as it can be one of the more plausible reasons as to why Pure Boo felt the need to absorb the South Kaioshin. The difference between my argument and yours is you used your argument to back up something that isn't a fact.

The only thing I see there we are discussing about is South Kaioshin's strength. "Boo absorbed him because he was strong enough to force him to" isn't the most plausible reason. That's only what you imagine. And as I pointed out before, Kibitoshin didn't suggest anything of the sort. A Kaioshin stronger than a SS3 is unlikely and baseless.

Considering Pure Boo was clowning about at this point I really don't see why they couldn't have at least tried.

Goku : "Vegeta, please, let's fuse !"
Vegeta : “I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”
Redundant and boring... I guess that's why this is not in the story again.

And you are quoting Vegeta why? This just proves that Goku still tried to get Vegeta to fuse with him even after being told he wouldn't merge with him a second time. All this proves is Goku is persistent.

No, Goku hadn't yet offered to merge temporarily via Fusion dance. And after Vegeta's reply, Goku never asks him for Fusion again.

And this matters why? Your argument was that he was underestimating Boo for various reasons, such as size, yet Goku wasn't underestimating him at all. He just wasn't aware of the affects SSJ3 had on a living body and thus couldn't finish Pure Boo. I think you're trying to dodge what you were implying by stating something entirely unrelated to why you made this point in the first place. You originally used this answer to justify why Goku wasn't more insistent on fusing with Vegeta than he was when they were on about Evil Boo. But Goku never underestimated Pure Boo, he was right on the money. So the whole "Goku wasn't that insistent because he was underestimating Pure Boo" statement kind of falls flat on its face really.

I just don't care about that. Vegeta already told him no for the fusion and Goku was overconfident.

I think it's because Gokuu knew Gohan and Gotenks screw around too much and would get absorbed.

I don't think so because Goku was willing to let Gohan defeat Evil Boo when he reverted back to his Super Boo form.
Actually, Goku thinking that Gohan would get absorbed while he and Vegeta wouldn't get absorbed doesn't make any sense.

[Darkprince410]

Actually, the guidebooks state Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, not Goku. We've been through this, you might want to go back a few pages and catch up.


Oh and you're not me - while it's flattering that you try to imitate me, I do it better.

Vegeta is stated to be exactly equal to Goku after his majin power-up. The only difference is that Goku could go SSJ3. So, to Goku to believe that SSJ Gotenks would succeed in defeating Fat Buu, or at least have a shot at doing, he has to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, who is equal to SSJ2 Goku. And this is before Gotenks trains in ROSAT.

And nobody wants to be like you, don't worry.

And again - Goku was just guessing. He was also wrong. The Guidebooks states that the boys weren't able to surpass Vegeta until after the Rosat training, essentially saying they are Above SSJ2 Vegeta but below Gohan and Goku.

And believe me, my feelings aren't hurt.

There are some points you have to look at in regards to the statement about Gotenks and the Room of Spirit and Time.

The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

1) Even though Vegeta is mentioned and not Goku, the fact that Goku isn't excluded in the statement leaves it open that he is also outclassed by Gotenks at this point. The "and the others" is a very blanket statement, and since there are no exclusions mentioned, could very well mean "Vegeta and everyone else", which would include Goku in there. Why he wouldn't be mentioned since he'd be the strongest of the heroes at the time to compare Gotenks against I don't know, but the statement is vague on specifics.

2) Likewise, what's vague on specifics is the form that is being referenced. Your argument is that it's in one of his transformed states that he's finally surpassed Vegeta, but again, the line is vague. It could just as easily be interpreted as Gotenks powered up so much that his base form surpassed Vegeta's Super Saiya-jin 2 form.

That's the thing when it comes to such statements. You can't deal in absolutes when the actual information being given is so vague, as multiple interpretations can be made based on the same info.

Going back to Ssj Gotenks (pre RoSaT) being stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta given what's in the manga, there's nothing contradictory within the manga to say it isn't the case. Goku states twice that Gotenks, due to how extreme the fusion is, will be able to defeat Fat Buu, someone that effortlessly defeated Ssj2 Vegeta in their fight. Piccolo, who has shown repeatedly in the past that if someone isn't as strong as they should be, he'll outright mention it, makes no indication that Ssj Gotenks is weaker than Goku made him out to be. Lastly, looking back at Goku's dialogue, I don't see one time when he says that Gotenks was a gamble. All he says is

Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

Which simply means that he wanted the boys to be able to handle Buu on their own, since it'd in turn prepare them to defend the Earth in the future, seeing as how he (being dead at the time) wanted to take himself out of the picture as far as being Earth's protector. There's nothing in there about being unsure of Gotenks' capability in beating Buu or that it was a gamble.

I'd also like to say that you never actually addressed the theory I gave earlier. It's pretty straightforward, and establishes rather clearly how Pure Buu and Pure Evil Buu could be the same strength, and yet Goku's statement about being able to beat the Fat Buu could still be considered correct. When I say address, I mean actually debate on it, and don't say that "it's weak".

[Pan-Pan]

Just one thing...

Lastly, looking back at Goku's dialogue, I don't see one time when he says that Gotenks was a gamble.

Goku: “It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

[Kid Buu]

I think it's because Gokuu knew Gohan and Gotenks screw around too much and would get absorbed.

Pretty much, Gohan already had his chance to battle Buu when he was stronger and still messed up.

[Darkprince410]

I was looking at the wrong area, so I stand corrected on that part. The fact remains though that nothing contradicts it being a successful gamble. Goku gambles on the notion that they'd be able to defeat Buu, but given what he's seen of the two of them, it's a gamble he's confident in taking. Even though he wants to take himself out of the picture as far as defending the Earth, Goku would still have killed Fat Buu (or actively tried, given my theory) if he didn't think that Gotenks would have been able to beat him.

Likewise, as I've pointed out, Piccolo has shown, time and again, that when it comes to judging someone's strength against someone else's (or judging someone's strength in comparison to where they should be), he's very vocal about it. It's in his nature (and how his character is written) to actively assess the strength of others. It would be against his character to, for this one situation, suddenly clam up in regards to Ssj Gotenks' strength if he were anywhere below the pedestal that Goku said he'd be. Even though Goku himself was lying at the time as to whether or not he could defeat Fat Buu, Piccolo doesn't know that, so for Gotenks to succeed where Goku failed, then Gotenks would, as far as Piccolo is concerned, need to be stronger than Ssj3 Goku (and certainly stronger than Ssj2 Goku/Vegeta). Since he, at no point, makes any indication that Ssj Gotenks is weaker than what Goku made him out to be, then for all intents and purposes, Gotenks meets the level of strength that Goku suggested he'd be at.

[Amuro Ray]

Just one thing...

Lastly, looking back at Goku's dialogue, I don't see one time when he says that Gotenks was a gamble.

Goku: “It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

It's hilarious when people don't see things they don't want to see.

[Amuro Ray]

I was looking at the wrong area, so I stand corrected on that part.

Yes, you absolutely do, but I do appreciate you acknowledging your mistake.

The fact remains though that nothing contradicts it being a successful gamble. Goku gambles on the notion that they'd be able to defeat Buu, but given what he's seen of the two of them, it's a gamble he's confident in taking. Even though he wants to take himself out of the picture as far as defending the Earth, Goku would still have killed Fat Buu (or actively tried, given my theory) if he didn't think that Gotenks would have been able to beat him.

EVERYTHING CONTRADICTS IT. The boys were no match for Buu in base form (a battle not even worth showing apparently.) Everything else you posted is an assumption that has no basis in what Goku stated, nor what was shown in the Manga.

Likewise, as I've pointed out, Piccolo has shown, time and again, that when it comes to judging someone's strength against someone else's (or judging someone's strength in comparison to where they should be), he's very vocal about it. It's in his nature (and how his character is written) to actively assess the strength of others. It would be against his character to, for this one situation, suddenly clam up in regards to Ssj Gotenks' strength if he were anywhere below the pedestal that Goku said he'd be.

I'm not sure I understand -are you saying that Piccolo wouldn't be surprised at how powerful Gotenks has become? Gotenks doesn't have to be on Goku's level to be powerful enough to Beat Manjin Buu you know.

Even though Goku himself was lying at the time as to whether or not he could defeat Fat Buu, Piccolo doesn't know that, so for Gotenks to succeed where Goku failed, then Gotenks would, as far as Piccolo is concerned, need to be stronger than Ssj3 Goku (and certainly stronger than Ssj2 Goku/Vegeta). Since he, at no point, makes any indication that Ssj Gotenks is weaker than what Goku made him out to be, then for all intents and purposes, Gotenks meets the level of strength that Goku suggested he'd be at.

You could argue that - or you can believe what the guide books and the story tell us that Gotenks isn't as powerful as he makes himself out to be. Gotenks believes he's stronger than Buu - false. Piccolo initially believes Base Gotenks can take on Buu, surprise - also false.

[Draken]

I was looking at the wrong area, so I stand corrected on that part.

Yes, you absolutely do, but I do appreciate you acknowledging your mistake.

The fact remains though that nothing contradicts it being a successful gamble. Goku gambles on the notion that they'd be able to defeat Buu, but given what he's seen of the two of them, it's a gamble he's confident in taking. Even though he wants to take himself out of the picture as far as defending the Earth, Goku would still have killed Fat Buu (or actively tried, given my theory) if he didn't think that Gotenks would have been able to beat him.

EVERYTHING CONTRADICTS IT. The boys were no match for Buu in base form (a battle not even worth showing apparently.) Everything else you posted is an assumption that has no basis in what Goku stated, nor what was shown in the Manga.

Likewise, as I've pointed out, Piccolo has shown, time and again, that when it comes to judging someone's strength against someone else's (or judging someone's strength in comparison to where they should be), he's very vocal about it. It's in his nature (and how his character is written) to actively assess the strength of others. It would be against his character to, for this one situation, suddenly clam up in regards to Ssj Gotenks' strength if he were anywhere below the pedestal that Goku said he'd be.

I'm not sure I understand -are you saying that Piccolo wouldn't be surprised at how powerful Gotenks has become? Gotenks doesn't have to be on Goku's level to be powerful enough to Beat Manjin Buu you know.

Even though Goku himself was lying at the time as to whether or not he could defeat Fat Buu, Piccolo doesn't know that, so for Gotenks to succeed where Goku failed, then Gotenks would, as far as Piccolo is concerned, need to be stronger than Ssj3 Goku (and certainly stronger than Ssj2 Goku/Vegeta). Since he, at no point, makes any indication that Ssj Gotenks is weaker than what Goku made him out to be, then for all intents and purposes, Gotenks meets the level of strength that Goku suggested he'd be at.

You could argue that - or you can believe what the guide books and the story tell us that Gotenks isn't as powerful as he makes himself out to be. Gotenks believes he's stronger than Buu - false. Piccolo initially believes Base Gotenks can take on Buu, surprise - also false.

Really? Gotenks believing he's stronger than Buu is false shown where, when, and how? He was putting the beat down on Buu, he only couldn't kill him because of Buu's regeneration. Goku believes SSJ Gotenks post RoSaT can take on Buu, surprise - never contradicted. You keep ignoring arguments, remaining blind to your faith and refusing to admit you POSSIBLY, in the slightest, could be wrong (your words, not mine) and then using baseless assumptions to back up your own opinions. "Uh, he lied because I said he lied. This is a simple kids manga, we as a reader are expected to analyze and justify this manga like we're reading To Kill A Mockingbird or The Catcher in the Rye. What, we're supposed to believe everything a character says until it's proven wrong? No this is real life dude, they're probably lying."

[Darkprince410]

I was looking at the wrong area, so I stand corrected on that part.

Yes, you absolutely do, but I do appreciate you acknowledging your mistake.

The fact remains though that nothing contradicts it being a successful gamble. Goku gambles on the notion that they'd be able to defeat Buu, but given what he's seen of the two of them, it's a gamble he's confident in taking. Even though he wants to take himself out of the picture as far as defending the Earth, Goku would still have killed Fat Buu (or actively tried, given my theory) if he didn't think that Gotenks would have been able to beat him.

EVERYTHING CONTRADICTS IT. The boys were no match for Buu in base form (a battle not even worth showing apparently.) Everything else you posted is an assumption that has no basis in what Goku stated, nor what was shown in the Manga.

Likewise, as I've pointed out, Piccolo has shown, time and again, that when it comes to judging someone's strength against someone else's (or judging someone's strength in comparison to where they should be), he's very vocal about it. It's in his nature (and how his character is written) to actively assess the strength of others. It would be against his character to, for this one situation, suddenly clam up in regards to Ssj Gotenks' strength if he were anywhere below the pedestal that Goku said he'd be.

I'm not sure I understand -are you saying that Piccolo wouldn't be surprised at how powerful Gotenks has become? Gotenks doesn't have to be on Goku's level to be powerful enough to Beat Manjin Buu you know.

Even though Goku himself was lying at the time as to whether or not he could defeat Fat Buu, Piccolo doesn't know that, so for Gotenks to succeed where Goku failed, then Gotenks would, as far as Piccolo is concerned, need to be stronger than Ssj3 Goku (and certainly stronger than Ssj2 Goku/Vegeta). Since he, at no point, makes any indication that Ssj Gotenks is weaker than what Goku made him out to be, then for all intents and purposes, Gotenks meets the level of strength that Goku suggested he'd be at.

You could argue that - or you can believe what the guide books and the story tell us that Gotenks isn't as powerful as he makes himself out to be. Gotenks believes he's stronger than Buu - false. Piccolo initially believes Base Gotenks can take on Buu, surprise - also false.

1) Goku was fully intending for Gotenks to fight as a Super Saiya-jin. After all, we see him trying to coach them on synching their ki while Super Saiya-jin. Why would he have them synch their ki as Super Saiya-jins (and get familiar with how that feels) if he was only intending for them to fuse in their base form and fight Buu that way? He simply said that seeing the boys power, he was willing to take the gamble that Gotenks would be able to take Fat Buu out, which doesn't put any indicator on him believing they could do it in their base form or anything, just that the maximum form he knows that Gotenks would have access to, Super Saiya-jin, would be enough to do it.

2) No, what I'm saying is that Piccolo has shown in the past (and shows later on as well) that he actively voices his opinion on someone's strength when it doesn't stack up to where he believes they should be. Due to Goku saying that Gotenks would be able to do what he could not, he's suggesting to Piccolo that Gotenks should be more powerful than the level of power that Goku (as a Super Saiya-jin 3) used against Fat Buu. For him, at this one point, to not speak up about Ssj Gotenks' battle power in comparison to Ssj3 Goku's suggests quite clearly that Gotenks is as powerful as Goku was making him out to be.

3) That's the one small problem with the Daizenshuu's statement about Gotenks' power. It doesn't specifically say what form Gotenks became powerful enough in that he surpassed Vegeta, nor does the line even exclude Goku in the mix.

The line states that Gotenks has powered up to the point that he surpassed Vegeta and the others. That's it. Nothing in the line excludes Goku from being in the "others" mentioned, nor does it say that it took him achieving Super Saiya-jin 3 in order to finally surpass Vegeta. It could just as easily mean that Gotenks in his base form became high enough to where he surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta.

[RandomGuy96]

If you want to use that statement, then it's very heavily implied that base Gotenks > SS2 Majin Vegeta in the manga, even if it's not flat out stated like SS Gotenks > SS2 Majin Vegeta.

Also, who can "others" possibly be referring to besides Goku? It's a plural statement, Gotenks had to surpass at least two people in the ROSAT. One is probably Gohan, the other has to be Goku, unless you think Piccolo, 18, and the humans were stronger than Gotenks pre-ROSAT, which is ridiculous.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I think it's because Gokuu knew Gohan and Gotenks screw around too much and would get absorbed.

I don't think so because Goku was willing to let Gohan defeat Evil Boo when he reverted back to his Super Boo form.
Actually, Goku thinking that Gohan would get absorbed while he and Vegeta wouldn't get absorbed doesn't make any sense.

And as usual, the last time he lets Gohan fight his battles, he becomes a victim.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan became the strongest in the universe and still lost. That is a new level of fail.

For those saying that both the South and Grand Supreme Kais weakened Buu, there's this nice quote from the Daizenshuu: "He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened."

On an unrelated note, South Kaioshin must be a beast. Too bad he became the first victim of Buu's legendarily cheap tactics.

[Kid Buu]

And as usual, the last time he lets Gohan fight his battles, he becomes a victim.

Except in the Saiyan Arc, where he proved to be a big asset to Goku.

Although, I suppose you could mention he made Piccolo a victim.

[Pan-Pan]

And as usual, the last time he lets Gohan fight his battles, he becomes a victim.

But nothing suggests that Goku doesn't trust his son anymore.