Goku And Gotenks

[Kamiccolo9]

SS Gotenks was believed to beat Fat Boo in less than 30 minutes and this was never contradicted.
SS2 Majin Vegeta was no match for Fat Boo, so the same goes to SS2 Goku.

SS Gotenks is stronger than SS2 Goku.

Yeah, was believed but there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough.

Mmm I think that SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Kakarotto don´t have the same powers because SSJ2 Goku fought well and not seriously against Pure Boo who is stronger than contained Fat Boo.

That was filler. Goku never fought against Pure Buu in SSJ2 in the manga. He and Vegeta were practically equal during their fight.

[MDSTSSJ]

Well, if SSJ1 Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku, then SSJ3 Gotenks is 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku. That's a pretty big difference. And Gohan is even stronger.

And what about " there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough" my friend Kamiccolo9?

That´s why I start the thread Fat Boo and Super Boo Differences. Power differences between contained Fat Boo and Super Boo ( made by the same characters ) with the respective evil and kindness differences.

[MDSTSSJ]

SS Gotenks was believed to beat Fat Boo in less than 30 minutes and this was never contradicted.
SS2 Majin Vegeta was no match for Fat Boo, so the same goes to SS2 Goku.

SS Gotenks is stronger than SS2 Goku.

Yeah, was believed but there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough.

Mmm I think that SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Kakarotto don´t have the same powers because SSJ2 Goku fought well and not seriously against Pure Boo who is stronger than contained Fat Boo.

That was filler. Goku never fought against Pure Buu in SSJ2 in the manga. He and Vegeta were practically equal during their fight.

Yes it´s a filler but we should take into account I think because, maybe there is a possibility that one SSJ2 are way stronger than another SSJ2. What about SSJ2 Gohan weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta ( not Majin Vegeta ) and SSJ2 Goku in the Boo´s Arc?

[hleV]

there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough.

... There was.
Goku thought that Gotenks would destroy Fat Boo. Obviously not in base form because we've seen how that ended, so that leaves SS Gotenks. Goku had witnessed Fusion before (in the afterlife) and he had also seen SS Goten & Trunks' power, so there's no reason to not believe in Goku's calculation.

Also SS2 Majin Vegeta & SS2 Goku were pretty much equals - stated by Goku himself.
And fillers are not to be considered.

[RandomGuy96]

How does Goku compare to Gotenks? I have SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre) > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Post).

How do you think Goku compare to Base Gotenks, SSJ Gotenks and SSJ3 Gotenks?

For me, Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Buuoshin > Buuccolo > Super Buu > Pure Buu > SS3 Goku > SS Gotenks > Fat Buu > SS2 Goku = Majin Vegeta. I never bother to make a distinction between pre and post Gotenks.

In numbers, measured in SS Gokus/Vegetas:

Majin Vegeta = 2 SS
SS2 Goku = 2 SS
Fat Buu = 3 SS
SS Gotenks = 4 SS
SS3 Goku = 8 SS
Pure Buu = 9 SS
South Kaioshin = 21 SS
Super Buu = 29 SS
Buuccolo = 29.4 SS
Buuoshin = 30 SS
SS3 Gotenks = 32 SS
Ultimate Gohan = 46 SS
Buutenks = 61 SS
Buuhan = 75 SS

It's kind of tight, but I think it works without runing the additive nature of Buu's absorbptions.

[Draken]

Yes it´s a filler but we should take into account I think because, maybe there is a possibility that one SSJ2 are way stronger than another SSJ2. What about SSJ2 Gohan weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta ( not Majin Vegeta ) and SSJ2 Goku in the Boo´s Arc?

... No just... no. You can't use filler. Unless you think Yamcha is stronger than Olibu who was almost even with weighted Pikkon who was shown to 1hko SP Cell and Frieza.

[Hitiro]

Yes it´s a filler but we should take into account I think because, maybe there is a possibility that one SSJ2 are way stronger than another SSJ2. What about SSJ2 Gohan weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta ( not Majin Vegeta ) and SSJ2 Goku in the Boo´s Arc?

We know that one SSJ2 can be stronger than another. The SSJ2 form is based inherently on the Saiyan's base strength so if Gohan's base strength is weaker than Goku's then Gohan's SSJ2 will be weaker than Goku's SSJ2. As far as we know the Majin power-up Vegeta received fro Babidi put Vegeta on par with Goku in terms of strength because they were both fighting equally at SSJ2. Goku even admits later that if Vegeta couldn't beat Fat Boo in SSJ2 then neither could he.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Here we have Goku admitting they're completely even with Vegeta's Majin power-up.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

And here is Goku admitting he couldn't beat Fat Boo as a SSJ2 as there was no gap between his strength and Vegeta's strength.

[MDSTSSJ]

... There was.
Goku thought that Gotenks would destroy Fat Boo. Obviously not in base form because we've seen how that ended, so that leaves SS Gotenks. Goku had witnessed Fusion before (in the afterlife) and he had also seen SS Goten & Trunks' power, so there's no reason to not believe in Goku's calculation.

Mmm even when both kids are SSJ? Two SSJ kids fused = At least SSJ2 I think.

Also SS2 Majin Vegeta & SS2 Goku were pretty much equals - stated by Goku himself.
And fillers are not to be considered.

What I mean about the filler, is just to take as an example. Sorry, short explanation

[hleV]

↑ I don't get what are you saying. According to Goku, hypothetical SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, and that is never contradicted. That's all you need to know, really. Sure, you can disagree, but in that case you'd be treating Goku as a fool, and he's no fool when it comes to fighting/measuring power.

[Hitiro]

Mmm even when both kids are SSJ? Two SSJ kids fused = At least SSJ2 I think.

It depends on how strong the fusion makes them. Don't forget that the fusion technique doesn't just add their battle powers together. Otherwise Goku wouldn't have even entertained the notion of having the kids fight. You can't really say two SSJ kids fused = at least SSJ2. Look at Goku and Vegeta fused. SSJ Vegetto = over 2 SSJ3 Goku's for him to be on par with Boohan, and that just for him to be on par with Boohan. SSJ Vegetto was demolishing Boohan. That would mean base Vegetto is at least 16x more power powerful than base Goku just to be on par with Boohan. So the kids fusion could make them at most 8x stronger than base Goku which would put their SSJ form close to Goku's SSJ3 form.

[Pantalones]

I don't get why it's assumed that SSj Gotenks is equal to SSj3 Goku just because both of them were stated to be capable of beating Fat Buu. Goku was able to basically mess around with Fat Buu just to hold him off; he wasn't fighting seriously and eventually he admitted to that (and said that if he did fight seriously he would've been able to destroy Buu.) We don't see SSj3 Goku's full power in the Fat Buu fight, and he was still at least even with Buu if not stronger... even when holding back.

That means there's a gap between Fat Buu and SSj3 Goku's full power. Possibly a pretty significant gap depending on just how much Goku was holding back, and just how much stronger Kid Buu is compared to Fat Buu (since we see that Goku is able to fight evenly with Kid Buu when he does get serious, and he doesn't run into trouble until SSj3 drains his energy too much for him to finish Buu off.) We know Kid Buu definitely is stronger than Fat Buu (Dai Kaioshin weakened him and all), it's just a matter of how much stronger... which is never really made clear, unless the Fat Buu we see later on (sometimes called "Good Buu" or "Mr. Buu") is intended to be the same strength as the original Fat Buu or at least close to it. (Which I think is a possibility, though everyone else here seems to be convinced that Good Buu/Evil Buu was a literal split in power like Kami/Piccolo as well as a split in mindset.)

Which means there's a much wider range for Super Saiyan Gotenks to fall into, rather than just automatically being "SSj3 Goku level" just because he can beat Fat Buu. He only has to be stronger than Fat Buu (so also stronger than "holding back" SSj3 Goku), not necessarily greater than or equal to the "full-power" SSj3 Goku that we later saw fighting Kid Buu.

[Draken]

... There was.
Goku thought that Gotenks would destroy Fat Boo. Obviously not in base form because we've seen how that ended, so that leaves SS Gotenks. Goku had witnessed Fusion before (in the afterlife) and he had also seen SS Goten & Trunks' power, so there's no reason to not believe in Goku's calculation.

Mmm even when both kids are SSJ? Two SSJ kids fused = At least SSJ2 I think.

Also SS2 Majin Vegeta & SS2 Goku were pretty much equals - stated by Goku himself.
And fillers are not to be considered.

What I mean about the filler, is just to take as an example. Sorry, short explanation

You cannot consider filler in a debate. Like ever. Unless, like I said up there, you think Yamcha is stronger than Olibu who was on par with restrained Pikkon who one shot SPC and Frieza. So Yamcha must be stronger than all the saiyans at SSJ.

[VegettoEX]

You can consider filler in a debate if you want to consider filler in a debate and filler is involved and all parties are OK with considering filler.

Otherwise you just have to shake hands, agree to disagree, and acknowledge that you have two equally-valid viewpoints on the issue and have no right to tell the other person not to bother contributing.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

When was Super Saiyan Gotenks ever stated to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

[RandomGuy96]

Never, but it was kind of implied by Piccolo feeling that post-ROSAT Gotenks is powerful enough to take on Super Buu despite not knowing about SS3.

[Bussani]

The fact that Goku thought Gotenks would be enough to handle Fat Buu could also be a hint, although I admit it's nothing conclusive. There's also the fact that Kame-sennin and the others describe base Gotenks as having "a torrent of ki", which seems like a weird thing to say if he was only as strong as or weaker than base Goku; of course, some might consider that little more than setup for a gag. Lots of different ways of looking at everything.

[Darkprince410]

The point I use more than anything is Piccolo's reaction (or lack thereof) when seeing Ssj Gotenks for the first time. Through the entire series of Z, when he's sitting on the sidelines and judging battle powers of individuals, he'll comment on someone's strength if they're stronger or weaker than someone else, or he'll comment on someone's strength if they're stronger or weaker than they should be. He did it during the fight with Nappa, the fight with Freeza on Namek, during the Jinzou-ningen, with Cell, etc. Likewise, he did it when it came to Gotenks and Gohan when they were fighting Evil Buu. His dialogue seems to be written at times just to let us know how fighters stand in terms of power.

Before he left for Otherworld, Goku established that he thought he couldn't beat Fat Buu, and at the same time was certain that Gotenks would be able to beat him. Now Goku reveals that he was lying when he said he couldn't beat Fat Buu, but that's beside the point. Piccolo, because of Goku, now has an idea of how powerful Ssj Gotenks should be. Piccolo is under the belief that Ssj3 Goku wasn't strong enough to beat Fat Buu, so in order for Gotenks to be able to, he'd need to be stronger than Ssj3 Goku. Now, when you look at the scene of Ssj Gotenks first appearing, Piccolo makes no mention about Gotenks weaker than what Goku made him out to be. He mentions that Gotenks has an immense power, wonders how well he can move around, and then berates him later for burning up so much of his time before getting ready to fight Fat Buu.

In my opinion, if Ssj Gotenks was below where Goku made his strength out to be, it'd be a huge deviation from Piccolo's established character not to make a comment about it. He did it so many times beforehand and did it multiple times after, that the only reason I believe that he didn't say anything is because Gotenks was as powerful as Goku claimed he'd be, which would be higher than Ssj3 Goku's strength when he fought Fat Buu.

[FNF]

I tend to have this as a compromise between gag scenes and statements made;

SSJ3 Gotenks~Evil Boo>SSJ Gotenks (post)>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ Gotenks (pre)>Base Gotenks (post)>Fat Boo>Base Gotenks (pre)~SSJ2 Goku.