Question about Buu Saga and strength

[IIMaxII]

No... In Battle of Gods 100% Freeza > base Goku is Implied and it's a canon film. Furthermore how is Kaioshin supposed to know what the Ssj multiplier is and how is he supposed to guesstimate when he doesn't know Vegeta's or Goku's full power? I'll tell you can't. Kaioshin is also incredibly unreliable when it comes to strength statements.

It's implied that Freeza>base Goku (chill mode) while it's more than implied that Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans in the Boo arc.

If the Kaioshin can restrain SSJ Gohan and Gohan says he'd probably need SSJ to beat Kibito then Kaioshin > Base Saiyans. Unless you're telling me that Kaioshin < Kibito?

That's an unfair argument considering that is needed for the plot. How else would they have located buu?

[IIMaxII]

Also.. Base saiyans > Piccolo.

Why?

Zenkais...Gohan becomes stronger after he's healed by Kibito.

[FNF]

No... In Battle of Gods 100% Freeza > base Goku is Implied and it's a canon film. Furthermore how is Kaioshin supposed to know what the Ssj multiplier is and how is he supposed to guesstimate when he doesn't know Vegeta's or Goku's full power? I'll tell you can't. Kaioshin is also incredibly unreliable when it comes to strength statements.

It's implied that Freeza>base Goku (chill mode) while it's more than implied that Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans in the Boo arc.

If the Kaioshin can restrain SSJ Gohan and Gohan says he'd probably need SSJ to beat Kibito then Kaioshin > Base Saiyans. Unless you're telling me that Kaioshin < Kibito.

1. He uses paralysis arts. Chaozu was significantly weaker than Krillin in the 22nd Budokai yet he could still paralyze him. Now imagine how powerful Kaioshin's paralysis arts could be considering he's a god... In actuality, him paralyzing Gohan is nothing of note.
2. He doesn't say anything of the sort. All he suggests is that he won't be able to hide his supernatural abilities yet still beat Kibito (see God(Shen) in the 23rd Budokai). Never mind the fact that Kibito can't even dead-lift the Z sword yet Gohan could hold it upright. That just seems like a big "HELLO! KIBITO IS THIIIS WEAK!" from AT.

Now look at Kaioshin's astonishment at base Vegeta's power and the way he looks on in awe at the Saiyans in the following title page, base Saiyans>Kaioshin comes across as a dead cert.

[RandomGuy96]

No... In Battle of Gods 100% Freeza > base Goku is Implied and it's a canon film. Furthermore how is Kaioshin supposed to know what the Ssj multiplier is and how is he supposed to guesstimate when he doesn't know Vegeta's or Goku's full power? I'll tell you can't. Kaioshin is also incredibly unreliable when it comes to strength statements.

There is no official canon. That said, I think that Kaioshin and Piccolo are both way stronger than the base Saiyans, and there's nothing, absolutely nothing to contradict that, and some evidence to support it. It's even said in the guidebooks that Kibito is as strong as base Gohan. It then goes on to say that he's absolutely nothing compared to Kaioshin. I personally have Kaioshin around 70% of SS teen Gohan, which is moderately higher than a Cell Junior, and Piccolo a little more than a third of SS teen Gohan, while Kibito is 2% of Gohan. Though I'm considering changing the multiplier for Full Power Super Saiyan due to the implications with Yakon...

If the Kaioshin can restrain SSJ Gohan and Gohan says he'd probably need SSJ to beat Kibito then Kaioshin > Base Saiyans. Unless you're telling me that Kaioshin < Kibito?

He restrained SS2 Gohan, and as I said the guidebooks state Kibito = base Gohan more or less.

1. He uses paralysis arts. Chaozu was significantly weaker than Krillin in the 22nd Budokai yet he could still paralyze him. Now imagine how powerful Kaioshin's paralysis arts could be considering he's a god... In actuality, him paralyzing Gohan is nothing of note.

I'm glad you brought up Chiaotzu. Going by previous examples of how telekinesis works, Kaioshin has to be at least 1/3 of SS Gohan here, since Chiaotzu couldn't affect Nappa with his telekinesis because of Nappa's x6.5 advantage over Chiaotzu. He was just too strong. So Kaioshin being 100 times weaker than the guy he paralyzed just doesn't work; it contradicts previous uses of that power, contradicts Piccolo's power at the Cell Games (where he was at least able to stand against the Cell Juniors, unlike tired Goku, and heavily implied that he was at least ASS level), contradicts the guidebooks, and has no evidence backing it.

2. He doesn't say anything of the sort. All he suggests is that he won't be able to hide his supernatural abilities yet still beat Kibito (see God(Shen) in the 23rd Budokai). Never mind the fact that Kibito can't even dead-lift the Z sword yet Gohan could hold it upright. That just seems like a big "HELLO! KIBITO IS THIIIS WEAK!" from AT.

Hello guidebooks. Also, what you can lift =/= power level or striking power, this is made abundantly clear. Unless you think SS kid Trunks is weaker than 90,000.

Now look at Kaioshin's astonishment at base Vegeta's power and the way he looks on in awe at the Saiyans in the following title page, base Saiyans>Kaioshin comes across as a dead cert.

Funny how he lacked that astonishment with angry SS2 Gohan earlier. Also funny how he considered Pui Pui to be way more powerful than he actually was.

[TheMightyOzaru]

No... In Battle of Gods 100% Freeza > base Goku is Implied and it's a canon film. Furthermore how is Kaioshin supposed to know what the Ssj multiplier is and how is he supposed to guesstimate when he doesn't know Vegeta's or Goku's full power? I'll tell you can't. Kaioshin is also incredibly unreliable when it comes to strength statements.

It's implied that Freeza>base Goku (chill mode) while it's more than implied that Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans in the Boo arc.

No... Goku was training prior to Beers' arrival. He was showing most his energy. I too think Goku is stronger but only slightly. You also have to remember any Zenkai's that Goku once had access to are now diminished or not noticeable. It's ultimately absurd to suggest that Goku got so much stronger so quickly. It's not implied that Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans at all =/. Kaioshin only regards himself as being outclassed when the Saiyans turn into super Saiyans.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Also.. Base saiyans > Piccolo.

Why?

Zenkais...Gohan becomes stronger after he's healed by Kibito.

Zenkai's disappeared or became almost unnoticed after the Freeza arc.

[IIMaxII]

1. He uses paralysis arts. Chaozu was significantly weaker than Krillin in the 22nd Budokai yet he could still paralyze him. Now imagine how powerful Kaioshin's paralysis arts could be considering he's a god... In actuality, him paralyzing Gohan is nothing of note.

Now look at Kaioshin's astonishment at base Vegeta's power and the way he looks on in awe at the Saiyans in the following title page, base Saiyans>Kaioshin comes across as a dead cert.

Not to mention he was caught of guard and was more focused on the fight than Kaioshin paralyzing him. I'm a bit unsure if piccolo chose not to fight Kaioshin because he'd lose, or out of respect...I'm assuming the latter, but if it is the former than this can prove that base saiyans > Piccolo besides Goten and Trunks. I believe Piccolo > SSJ Trunks and Goten post RoSaT.

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Also I am not really arguing that the Genkai Dama was in the high billions, and I'm not really educated on the whole Genkai v.s. Ki aspect, so I will leave that argument alone. I also have not seen BoG.

[IIMaxII]

Zenkai's disappeared or became almost unnoticed after the Freeza arc.

Really? I could have sworn after being healed, Gohan said he felt stronger; AT implied that he had a zenkai.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Zenkai's disappeared or became almost unnoticed after the Freeza arc.

Really? I could have sworn after being healed, Gohan said he felt stronger; AT implied that he had a zenkai.

That doesn't imply a Zenkai. It implies Gohan feels 100% better.

[IIMaxII]

Zenkai's disappeared or became almost unnoticed after the Freeza arc.

Really? I could have sworn after being healed, Gohan said he felt stronger; AT implied that he had a zenkai.

That doesn't imply a Zenkai. It implies Gohan feels 100% better.

I guess it depends on how you interpret it, I still think he became stronger because he was near-death.


EDIT*** Kaioshin believing Pui Pui could win was him under estimating Goku and Co because they live on Earth, which he assumes are not on the same level as Pui Pui with his 10x gravity.

[Hitiro]

That's an unfair argument considering that is needed for the plot. How else would they have located buu?

Dragonballs? Telling Gohan what they needed him to do before hand? They didn't have to restrain him for it to happen. Kibito or the Kaioshin could have told Gohan that they needed him to get his energy drained to find a great evil. There's also other things that could have been done. Interrogation by the Z-Fighters, re-introducing Goku's mind-reading ability, etc.

1. He uses paralysis arts. Chaozu was significantly weaker than Krillin in the 22nd Budokai yet he could still paralyze him. Now imagine how powerful Kaioshin's paralysis arts could be considering he's a god... In actuality, him paralyzing Gohan is nothing of note.

I have no trouble believing this one but Chaozu wasn't that weak compared to Kuririn. Especially not 50x if we put the Kaioshin on par with Gohan. Which you are saying he was even weaker than that still.

2. He doesn't say anything of the sort. All he suggests is that he won't be able to hide his supernatural abilities yet still beat Kibito (see God(Shen) in the 23rd Budokai). Never mind the fact that Kibito can't even dead-lift the Z sword yet Gohan could hold it upright. That just seems like a big "HELLO! KIBITO IS THIIIS WEAK!" from AT.

Now look at Kaioshin's astonishment at base Vegeta's power and the way he looks on in awe at the Saiyans in the following title page, base Saiyans>Kaioshin comes across as a dead cert.

The daizenshuu line is from Kibito’s Daizenshuu 7 bio: “His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn’t a Super Saiyan.”

The Daizenshuu seems to agree with me that Kibito would have given Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a SSJ. And also I should point out that Kibito not being able to lift the Z-Sword has no bearing on his ki strength in relation to Gohan. It only points to his physical strength not being on par with Gohan's. If all characters of the same ki level, or battle power, were of the same stats we wouldn't see things like Burta claiming to be the fastest, etc. So unless you do believe Kaioshin is weaker than Kibito then that is your choice. Also in regard to the "Kaioshin's astonishment" part. He was in awe of Vegeta's base power because he never assumed their would be people on that plane with that level of power. Its not really indicative of Kaioshin thinking "OMG! He's more powerful than I am!" its more like "Wow! I never knew there were beings on this plane of existence with this level of power! It's suprising!"

[TheMightyOzaru]

I guess it depends on how you interpret it, I still think he became stronger because he was near-death.

He could have gotten a very very small bit stronger but nothing significant. An official statement in, I believe, the Daizenshuus says that Zenkai's diminished or became unnoticeable.

[IIMaxII]

Is it even implied that Kibito can fightl? How can you compare him to Gohan?

The way I see it is Kibito is sort of like Dende, he's not really a fighter.

[Kamiccolo9]

Is it even implied that Kibito can fightl? How can you compare him to Gohan?

The way I see it is Kibito is sort of like Dende, he's not really a fighter.

Because the Daizenshuu say that he can. They say he's strong enough to give Gohan a difficult time in base, and nothing ever contradicts it, so why question it?

[IIMaxII]

Is it even implied that Kibito can fightl? How can you compare him to Gohan?

The way I see it is Kibito is sort of like Dende, he's not really a fighter.

Because the Daizenshuu say that he can. They say he's strong enough to give Gohan a difficult time in base, and nothing ever contradicts it, so why question it?

Guidebooks =! Manga

The only evidence I can supply that Gohan believes he may need Super Saiyan to fight Kibito is because of Piccolo over exaggerating their powers.

[RandomGuy96]

Guidebooks >>> Fan Opinions.

Also, he did seem to be pretty powerful, since he was surprised that a mortal could surpass him (despite knowing full well about, say, Freeza).

[TheMightyOzaru]

I don't see Kibito as stronger than Freeza so base Gohan shouldn't be either.

[RandomGuy96]

Well I do, by a lot, but that's a story for the power levels thread. Hell, the Daizenshuu also says base kid Trunks is on par with 18.

[IIMaxII]

Guidebooks >>> Fan Opinions.

Also, he did seem to be pretty powerful, since he was surprised when Gohan surpassed his own power (despite knowing full well about, say, Freeza)

Well we're all making assumptions here anyway of AT's intents from our own perspective. Manga is always above daizenshuu. Again, he was only suprised that he "surpassed" because he didn't think beings on Earth could be so much stronger.

[Hitiro]

Is it even implied that Kibito can fightl? How can you compare him to Gohan?

The way I see it is Kibito is sort of like Dende, he's not really a fighter.

Because the Daizenshuu say that he can. They say he's strong enough to give Gohan a difficult time in base, and nothing ever contradicts it, so why question it?

Guidebooks =! Manga

The only evidence I can supply that Gohan believes he may need Super Saiyan to fight Kibito is because of Piccolo over exaggerating their powers.

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”
Note: That last sentence is one of those that’s kinda hard to translate literally. “Covering up” (gomakasu) is in the sense of faking it or deceiving someone, not simply in the sense of wearing a disguise, and in context he's almost certainly talking about covering up his true power (since that's what he mentions disguising himself in order to prevent people from finding out about). So essentially, Gohan doesn’t think he can win while still covering up his actual power. Hence Viz’s ‘by accident’ being in quotation marks: they mean the sort of thing Shen did, hiding his power by making it look like he won by pure accident. So I can see what Viz was going for with their translation, but I think it is kinda confusing.

The manga indicates Gohan wouldn't be able to defeat Kibito without using his true power. Regardless, Kibito isn't someone Gohan can defeat easily. And Kaioshin is much much more powerful than Kibito.