Question about Buu Saga and strength

[TheMightyOzaru]

Guidebooks >>> Fan Opinions.

Also, he did seem to be pretty powerful, since he was surprised when Gohan surpassed his own power (despite knowing full well about, say, Freeza)

Well we're all making assumptions here anyway of AT's intents from our own perspective. Manga is always above daizenshuu. Again, he was only suprised that he "surpassed" because he didn't think beings on Earth could be so much stronger.

The manga doesn't contradict the statement and it's ultimately pointless to argue with official material unless it's a blatant contradiction like Tenshinhan fighting 19 instead of 17.

[IIMaxII]

I don't see Kibito as stronger than Freeza so base Gohan shouldn't be either.

Who said Base Gohan > Freeza? I said Base Goku > Freeza and Vegeta > Freeza. I'd say base Gohan 70% of 100%Freeza and Kibito 90% of base Gohan

[RandomGuy96]

For me,

SS Gohan > Kaioshin > Cell Junior > Piccolo = Initial Perfect Cell > SS kids > base Goku > base Vegeta > base Gohan = Kibito > Android 18 >= base kids > Freeza

[Kamiccolo9]

For me,

SS Gohan > Kaioshin > Cell Junior > Piccolo = Initial Perfect Cell > SS kids > base Goku > base Vegeta > base Gohan = Kibito > Android 18 > base kids > Freeza

I would put Piccolo over the Cell Juniors, as it's been stated that he had continued training, and he wasn't too much weaker than them to begin with.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I have everyone here:
Goku: 100,000,000
Ssj Goku: 5,000,000,000
Vegeta: 75,000,000
Ssj Vegeta: 3,750,000,000
Gohan: 70,000,000
Ssj Gohan: 3,500,000,000
Piccolo: 1,300,000,000
Kaioshin: 2,700,000,000
Kibito: 70,000,000
Cell: 4,500,000,000
Cell Jr: 1,800,000,000
Freeza: 120,000,000
Android 18: 370,000,000
Goten: 16,000,000
Ssj Goten: 800,000,000
Trunks: 16,500,000
Ssj Trunks: 825,000,000

[IIMaxII]

For me,

SS Gohan > Kaioshin > Cell Junior > Piccolo = Initial Perfect Cell > SS kids > base Goku > base Vegeta > base Gohan = Kibito > Android 18 > base kids > Freeza

I would change that a bit and to be more specific I'd have it at...

SSJ2 Goku >= Majin Vegeta >> SSJ kids post > SSJ Gohan > Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Piccolo >> SSJ pre Trunks > SSJ pre Goten > Base Gohan >= Kaio shin > Kibito > Artificial Human 18 > 100% Freeza > base Trunks pre > base Goten pre


I don't even know where to put Kaioshin tbh, I refuse to believe that he can be stronger than Goku or Vegeta even in base form, based on seeing the fights with Yakon and Pui Pui and how suprised he was.

I put the kids so high in SSJ post because piccolo states that they have surpassed their SSJ form in base form.


*EDIT* Kaioshin was also suprised about Dabura being there....assuming Dabura gets the Majin boost which he most likely does Dabura >> Kaioshin.

[RandomGuy96]

I would put Piccolo over the Cell Juniors, as it's been stated that he had continued training, and he wasn't too much weaker than them to begin with.

Normal training shouldn't boost him much at all at this point, and yeah, I think he was a lot weaker than the Cell Juniors; he was able to stand against them, unlike tired SS Goku, but he still got the shit kicked out of him and wasn't included in Cell's list of people who could fight evenly. Plus I find that if you make Piccolo stronger than the Cell Juniors, there's not really enough room to comfortably fit in the far superior Kaioshin between Piccolo and SS Gohan with the huge gap that is implied.

I would change that a bit and to be more specific I'd have it at...

SSJ2 Goku >= Majin Vegeta >> SSJ kids post > SSJ Gohan > Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Piccolo >> SSJ pre Trunks > SSJ pre Goten > Base Gohan >= Kaio shin > Kibito > Artificial Human 18 > 100% Freeza > base Trunks pre > base Goten pre


I don't even know where to put Kaioshin tbh, I refuse to believe that he can be stronger than Goku or Vegeta even in base form, based on seeing the fights with Yakon and Pui Pui and how suprised he was.

I put the kids so high in SSJ post because piccolo states that they have surpassed their SSJ form in base form.


*EDIT* Kaioshin was also suprised about Dabura being there....assuming Dabura gets the Majin boost which he most likely does Dabura >> Kaioshin.

Funny how he was only surprised when they beat guys he couldn't and didn't actually sense. Also funny that he wasn't awed by the power of SS2 Gohan, the only one he actually did sense. Also funny how Kaioshin's telekinesis apparently works completely differently than everyone else's for no reason. I guess base Vegeta >>>> SS2 Gohan now as well.

Also, again, there is zero evidence that Piccolo is weaker than the base Saiyans. Absolutely none.

Where does Piccolo say that? If that's true, that alone would mean he's a lot stronger than the base Saiyans; he was stronger than base Goten and Trunks, as evidenced when he became the dominant influence in Buu after the fusion ran out. According to you, base Goten and Trunks at the time of the Buccolo sequence were stronger than Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks pre-ROSAT, and Goten was able to awe Gohan with his power and making him sweat and worry when they sparred.

Dabura is comparable to Cell- one of Perfect vs Goku, Perfect (full power), or Super Perfect, depending on how strong you think teen Gohan was, and whether or not you think he was a SS2. So being weaker than him doesn't say a lot.

Kaioshin being weaker than the base Saiyans just causes way too many problems and has no evidence behind it. Also, I'd like to point out that Kibito heavily implied that SS2 Gohan's power would be nothing special if he was a Kaioshin.

At the moment I have South Kaioshin > Kid Buu > SS3 Goku > Dai Kaioshin > SS2 Goku > West Kaioshin > SS2 Gohan > North Kaioshin > SS Gohan > East Kaioshin > Cell Junior > Piccolo > Initial Perfect Cell.

[IIMaxII]

At the moment I have South Kaioshin > Kid Buu > SS3 Goku > Dai Kaioshin > SS2 Goku > West Kaioshin > SS2 Gohan > North Kaioshin > SS Gohan > East Kaioshin > Cell Junior > Piccolo > Initial Perfect Cell.

Where would you put Fat Buu, Dabura, and SSJ2 Vegeta?

[Kamiccolo9]

I would put Piccolo over the Cell Juniors, as it's been stated that he had continued training, and he wasn't too much weaker than them to begin with.

Normal training shouldn't boost him much at all at this point, and yeah, I think he was a lot weaker than the Cell Juniors; he was able to stand against them, unlike tired SS Goku, but he still got the shit kicked out of him and wasn't included in Cell's list of people who could fight evenly. Plus I find that if you make Piccolo stronger than the Cell Juniors, there's not really enough room to comfortably fit in the far superior Kaioshin between Piccolo and SS Gohan with the huge gap that is implied.

Well, it wouldn't really affect the story at all either way, but as I see it, SSJ Vegeta was about even with the Cell Jr's, and Piccolo was willing to fight him in the tournament. I don't see Piccolo volunteering to get in fights he doesn't think he has a chance to win. As for his power compared to Kaioshin's, we've seen in instances like Vegeta and Kui, Vegeta and Dodoria, and Kaioken X3 Goku and Vegeta that relatively small differences in power can result in total domination in battle. I also think that Kami's influence in Piccolo has something to do with his attitude towards fighting Kaioshin, although I do believe that Kaioshin was indeed stronger. This is the only time I can think of where Piccolo has backed down from a fight, despite being heavily outclassed before, such as with Final Form Freeza, Imperfect Cell, Androids 17 and 18, Nappa, and he was even willing to suffer Super Buu's wrath by trapping him in the time chamber. I just feel that it is totally out of character for Piccolo to back out of a fight just because his foe is stronger.

[IIMaxII]

I would put Piccolo over the Cell Juniors, as it's been stated that he had continued training, and he wasn't too much weaker than them to begin with.

Normal training shouldn't boost him much at all at this point, and yeah, I think he was a lot weaker than the Cell Juniors; he was able to stand against them, unlike tired SS Goku, but he still got the shit kicked out of him and wasn't included in Cell's list of people who could fight evenly. Plus I find that if you make Piccolo stronger than the Cell Juniors, there's not really enough room to comfortably fit in the far superior Kaioshin between Piccolo and SS Gohan with the huge gap that is implied.

Well, it wouldn't really affect the story at all either way, but as I see it, SSJ Vegeta was about even with the Cell Jr's, and Piccolo was willing to fight him in the tournament. I don't see Piccolo volunteering to get in fights he doesn't think he has a chance to win. As for his power compared to Kaioshin's, we've seen in instances like Vegeta and Kui, Vegeta and Dodoria, and Kaioken X3 Goku and Vegeta that relatively small differences in power can result in total domination in battle. I also think that Kami's influence in Piccolo has something to do with his attitude towards fighting Kaioshin, although I do believe that Kaioshin was indeed stronger. This is the only time I can think of where Piccolo has backed down from a fight, despite being heavily outclassed before, such as with Final Form Freeza, Imperfect Cell, Androids 17 and 18, Nappa, and he was even willing to suffer Super Buu's wrath by trapping him in the time chamber. I just feel that it is totally out of character for Piccolo to back out of a fight just because his foe is stronger.

Bit contradictory. First you say you don't see piccolo volunteering in fights he stands a chance in, then you say you feel it's out of his character to back out because his foe is stronger...I feel he did it out of respect, because he was Kami as well.

[Kamiccolo9]

What I meant was that it is out of character for him to volunteer for fights he can't win, however, he does often get forced to fight to protect friends, or some other reason. He had no choice with Nappa, Cell, etc. However, even when totally outclassed, Piccolo doesn't simply give up. He still fought Freeza despite being laughably outmatched.

[IIMaxII]

Piccolo is one of my favorite characters, if not my favorite. I just don't see him being stronger than Base Goku or Vegeta even Gohan. Why else would Dabura blast Kibito and spit on Piccolo and Krillin? I'm 100% positive Babidi and Co did not know of SSJ, so Base Saiyans have to be > Piccolo and Kibito. Also this is just an assumption but Babidi left Kaioshin alive for revenge not because he could give energy to Buu...

[rereboy]

Piccolo is one of my favorite characters, if not my favorite. I just don't see him being stronger than Base Goku or Vegeta even Gohan. Why else would Dabura blast Kibito and spit on Piccolo and Krillin? I'm 100% positive Babidi and Co did not know of SSJ, so Base Saiyans have to be > Piccolo and Kibito. Also this is just an assumption but Babidi left Kaioshin alive for revenge not because he could give energy to Buu...

At that point, all of them had their Ki suppressed, probably to even lower levels than that of a normal human, to avoid detection. However Dabura detected them and concluded on which of them were stronger, so he wasn't using just regular Ki detection. He might have used special abilities or even magic. Anyway, he sensed that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were stronger than Piccolo but given how he must have used more than just Ki detection I don't see why should we conclude that what he sensed was limited to the Saiyan's base power. He probably managed to get a glimpse of all the power they all inside of them, which includes their SSJ power.

[Hitiro]

Piccolo is one of my favorite characters, if not my favorite. I just don't see him being stronger than Base Goku or Vegeta even Gohan. Why else would Dabura blast Kibito and spit on Piccolo and Krillin? I'm 100% positive Babidi and Co did not know of SSJ, so Base Saiyans have to be > Piccolo and Kibito. Also this is just an assumption but Babidi left Kaioshin alive for revenge not because he could give energy to Buu...

Dabura can't sense like the Z Fighters can though. He doesn't understand how powerful the Saiyan's are even with their SSJ transformations. It may be that the Saiyan's give off a possible air to them which is why he spared them thinking they aren't trash. Another conclusion we can draw is that being a magical being he has a very different way of sensing individuals.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Here Dabura specifically says energy, this is very unusual word to use as if he was sensing ki then he would have said ki. All the other characters who have ever been able to sense ki have stated it as such, saying stuff like "This guy's ki is huge!" or "His ki is mind-boggling!" the word energy is never used in the context of sensing someones ki. The only time energy is mentioned in the manga is in regard to attacks or stamina.

[IIMaxII]

Piccolo is one of my favorite characters, if not my favorite. I just don't see him being stronger than Base Goku or Vegeta even Gohan. Why else would Dabura blast Kibito and spit on Piccolo and Krillin? I'm 100% positive Babidi and Co did not know of SSJ, so Base Saiyans have to be > Piccolo and Kibito. Also this is just an assumption but Babidi left Kaioshin alive for revenge not because he could give energy to Buu...

Dabura can't sense like the Z Fighters can though. He doesn't understand how powerful the Saiyan's are even with their SSJ transformations. It may be that the Saiyan's give off a possible air to them which is why he spared them thinking they aren't trash. Another conclusion we can draw is that being a magical being he has a very different way of sensing individuals.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Here Dabura specifically says energy, this is very unusual word to use as if he was sensing ki then he would have said ki. All the other characters who have ever been able to sense ki have stated it as such, saying stuff like "This guy's ki is huge!" or "His ki is mind-boggling!" the word energy is never used in the context of sensing someones ki. The only time energy is mentioned in the manga is in regard to attacks or stamina.

I believe energy is used in the context of lifeforce.

[Hitiro]

Dabura can't sense like the Z Fighters can though. He doesn't understand how powerful the Saiyan's are even with their SSJ transformations. It may be that the Saiyan's give off a possible air to them which is why he spared them thinking they aren't trash. Another conclusion we can draw is that being a magical being he has a very different way of sensing individuals.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Here Dabura specifically says energy, this is very unusual word to use as if he was sensing ki then he would have said ki. All the other characters who have ever been able to sense ki have stated it as such, saying stuff like "This guy's ki is huge!" or "His ki is mind-boggling!" the word energy is never used in the context of sensing someones ki. The only time energy is mentioned in the manga is in regard to attacks or stamina.

I believe energy is used in the context of lifeforce.

If that is the case then Goku, Vegeta and Gohan may have more lifeforce than Piccolo yet Piccolo could still have a higher amount of ki.

[IIMaxII]

I doubt it, Piccolo is loved by AT, yet he makes him seems near useless in the buu saga.

[Hitiro]

I doubt it, Piccolo is loved by AT, yet he makes him seems near useless in the buu saga.

Akira Toriyama can make Piccolo useless while still having him more powerful than the base Saiyan's. You seem to forget that the reason it is so easy for the Saiyan's to surpass Piccolo is because of their transformations. They don't have to gain as much as Piccolo needs to in order to keep up. For instance, in the beginning of the Android arc Piccolo went from being on par with Freeza's second form to easily being able to deal with Android #20. That is a huge increase in power. In comparison, if Goku and Vegeta had that large of an increase they wouldn't need their SSJ forms to fight the Androids. An example of how the Saiyan's clearly don't need as a high a base to keep up with any other character looks like this:

Say for arguments sake Piccolo was 150 million. Piccolo then trains and gains a boost of 150 million putting him at 300 million.

Along comes Goku with a base of 3 million. Goku then trains and gets a boost of 3 million. That gives Goku 6 million. Goku then goes SSJ. Now Goku's SSJ powerlevel has gone from 150 million to 300 million without needing to increase his power that much. So the Saiyan's have always had superiority in the area of increasing their power due to their transformations.

The fact that Piccolo increased his battle power with Kami to a point where Vegeta was astounded clearly speaks for itself that the gains for the Saiyan's aren't as large as they are for Piccolo. I should also point out that other than Trunks and Vegeta, Piccolo was also holding his own against the Cell Jr. he was fighting. So for your statement of Piccolo < Base Saiyans that would mean either Piccolo got incredibly weaker during those 7 years or Base Vegeta > Super Vegeta (Cell Games) which is an absurd believe seeing as Gohan's battle power was the thing to beat during the 7 years and they made it sound like it was a high plateau in the manga during the Boo arc. Saying things like "You were the strongest, but I have been training and you haven't. I wonder if you could still beat me." Or "He's stronger than Gohan was during the Cell Games!" Those are not the types of quotes people would be saying if Gohan's battle power wasn't something impressive during the Cell Games. And if Vegeta in the Boo arc was now as strong as his Super Vegeta self from the Cell Games then it would kind of make Gohan's legendary battle power look like an insignificant speck in the dust.

[IIMaxII]

I doubt it, Piccolo is loved by AT, yet he makes him seems near useless in the buu saga.

Akira Toriyama can make Piccolo useless while still having him more powerful than the base Saiyan's. You seem to forget that the reason it is so easy for the Saiyan's to surpass Piccolo is because of their transformations. They don't have to gain as much as Piccolo needs to in order to keep up. For instance, in the beginning of the Android arc Piccolo went from being on par with Freeza's second form to easily being able to deal with Android #20. That is a huge increase in power. In comparison, if Goku and Vegeta had that large of an increase they wouldn't need their SSJ forms to fight the Androids. An example of how the Saiyan's clearly don't need as a high a base to keep up with any other character looks like this:

Say for arguments sake Piccolo was 150 million. Piccolo then trains and gains a boost of 150 million putting him at 300 million.

Along comes Goku with a base of 3 million. Goku then trains and gets a boost of 3 million. That gives Goku 6 million. Goku then goes SSJ. Now Goku's SSJ powerlevel has gone from 150 million to 300 million without needing to increase his power that much. So the Saiyan's have always had superiority in the area of increasing their power due to their transformations.

The fact that Piccolo increased his battle power with Kami to a point where Vegeta was astounded clearly speaks for itself that the gains for the Saiyan's aren't as large as they are for Piccolo. I should also point out that other than Trunks and Vegeta, Piccolo was also holding his own against the Cell Jr. he was fighting. So for your statement of Piccolo < Base Saiyans that would mean either Piccolo got incredibly weaker during those 7 years or Base Vegeta > Super Vegeta (Cell Games) which is an absurd believe seeing as Gohan's battle power was the thing to beat during the 7 years and they made it sound like it was a high plateau in the manga during the Boo arc. Saying things like "You were the strongest, but I have been training and you haven't. I wonder if you could still beat me." Or "He's stronger than Gohan was during the Cell Games!" Those are not the types of quotes people would be saying if Gohan's battle power wasn't something impressive during the Cell Games. And if Vegeta in the Boo arc was now as strong as his Super Vegeta self from the Cell Games then it would kind of make Gohan's legendary battle power look like an insignificant speck in the dust.

It sure seems that each new saga makes the previous villians look like an insignificant speck of dust. On a more serious note do you believe that SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta surpass SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games?

[Hitiro]

It sure seems that each new saga makes the previous villians look like an insignificant speck of dust. On a more serious note do you believe that SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta surpass SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games?

There are a few talks where both SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta are stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. I'm not sure about SSJ2 Vegeta though, I think I recall it being indicated by himself. But I'm not sure. After the Majin power-up however he definitely is.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4, P9.4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gona end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”
*Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 as well*
Goku: “This don’t look like it’s gonna end quickly…”

Goku is stronger than Gohan was back in the Cell Games.

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

Piccolo notes Majin Vegeta's power is perhaps greater than Gohan's. But the sealing deal on Majin Vegeta being more powerful than Gohan back at the Cell Games is the fact that Goku states there is no difference between his and Vegeta's power and since Vegeta definitely says Goku is stronger than Gohan was back then, then the two of them being equal strength must mean Vegeta is also stronger.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”