Question about Buu Saga and strength

[IIMaxII]

Side note about Dabura sensing the energy...I don't think we can really trust him. His energy sensing abilities are piss poor, same for Kaioshin. Only Gohan was able to realize Buu was still alive after seeing the ball was empty.

[Hitiro]

Side note about Dabura sensing the energy...I don't think we can really trust him. His energy sensing abilities are piss poor, same for Kaioshin. Only Gohan was able to realize Buu was still alive after seeing the ball was empty.

Well as I said, Dabura killing off Piccolo as if he was trash should be ignored as he isn't sensing ki. Piccolo is much stronger than this scene seems to indicate.

[rereboy]

Side note about Dabura sensing the energy...I don't think we can really trust him. His energy sensing abilities are piss poor, same for Kaioshin. Only Gohan was able to realize Buu was still alive after seeing the ball was empty.

He guessed correctly that Gohan, Goku and Vegeta were the strongest of the group despite the fact that they were suppressing their power. He's fairly accurate.

[IIMaxII]

Side note about Dabura sensing the energy...I don't think we can really trust him. His energy sensing abilities are piss poor, same for Kaioshin. Only Gohan was able to realize Buu was still alive after seeing the ball was empty.

He guessed correctly that Gohan, Goku and Vegeta were the strongest of the group despite the fact that they were suppressing their power. He's fairly accurate.

Can we be sure everyone was suppressing their power? How did Babidi spot them in the first place. Also if this holds any merit, I remember in the Trunks Saga Vegeta mentions that no one flies so frieza can't sense their energy...maybe that's how they knew they were there? I'm just making assumptions of course, but how could Babidi know? Did he hear or see them?

[IIMaxII]

I'm really having trouble trying to come up with a logical explanation over the base saiyans' strength. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the manga Vegeta one shots pui pui, who Kaioshin was worried about, suggesting that they fight together.
I'd say Dabura =< Perfect Cell v MSSJ Goku. Vegeta implies that he could beat Dabura easily, I'm assuming he's talking about in SSJ perhaps...this would put SSJ Vegeta >> Super Vegeta. Was Vegeta able to go SSJ2 at that point or was it only after the Babidi power-up? I'm under the impression that training in any form increases base strength, Could it be possible that Vegeta mastered SSJ over the 7 years? It's said he is constantly training and I believe under 500G's. For some reason I'm thinking that SSJ2 Gohan (Buu) is only a bit stronger than Super Vegeta (Cell Games 2nd RoSaT)...It just doesn't make sense that Kaioshin is so impressed with base Vegeta who is #2 to Goku but Piccolo is still stronger than both Base Saiyans according to you guys. Do you guys think Gohan loses more than 50% of his strength in 7 years?

[Kaboom]

I've always preferred the "Kaioshin is strong(er than Piccolo and the base Saiyans) but is a total wuss" approach, myself.

[IIMaxII]

I've always preferred the "Kaioshin is strong(er than Piccolo and the base Saiyans) but is a total wuss" approach, myself.

Who can we compare Kaioshin to? Would you put him above a Cell JR? I'd like to say he is strong, but he has no feats, aside from the fact that he can paralyze a rusty SSJ2 Gohan caught off guard and take a hit from Fat Buu.

I'd put Kaioshin between Pui Pui and Yakon...he was really afraid of Yakon....I agree that his Mystic abilities are greater than any other characters we have seen aside from Babidi...hard to call...


**EDIT Just thought about Kaioshin's statement about him being >>> Freeza....It's possible he was talking about his 3rd suppression. Kaioshin is so overhyped it's ridiculous there is no evidence aside from the Daizenshuu and his own words which we can't trust. Why would he suggest they fight Pui Pui together if Pui Pui is even weaker than Freeza who Kaioshin is stronger than?

[Kaboom]

Personally, I'd much rather chalk Kaioshin's shortcomings up to a character flaw rather than just ignore pretty much everything else that's said about him.

[TheMightyOzaru]

There is no reason to assume Kaioishin is that weak. He would crush Freeza with his finger. Kaioshin only states the Saiyans are stronger than he is when they go SSJ. Piccolo is also damn sure he is stronger than himself.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaioshin was worried about Vegeta fighting Pui-Pui alone because he had no idea what he was capable of. He did suggest a team attack on Yakon, but I think that's just him being cautious--since he didn't want Boo to receive any unnecessary energy.

[Hitiro]

I'm really having trouble trying to come up with a logical explanation over the base saiyans' strength. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the manga Vegeta one shots pui pui, who Kaioshin was worried about, suggesting that they fight together.
I'd say Dabura =< Perfect Cell v MSSJ Goku. Vegeta implies that he could beat Dabura easily, I'm assuming he's talking about in SSJ perhaps...this would put SSJ Vegeta >> Super Vegeta. Was Vegeta able to go SSJ2 at that point or was it only after the Babidi power-up? I'm under the impression that training in any form increases base strength, Could it be possible that Vegeta mastered SSJ over the 7 years? It's said he is constantly training and I believe under 500G's. For some reason I'm thinking that SSJ2 Gohan (Buu) is only a bit stronger than Super Vegeta (Cell Games 2nd RoSaT)...It just doesn't make sense that Kaioshin is so impressed with base Vegeta who is #2 to Goku but Piccolo is still stronger than both Base Saiyans according to you guys. Do you guys think Gohan loses more than 50% of his strength in 7 years?

Yes, Vegeta more than likely had SSJ2 by the Boo arc. And Vegeta's SSJ should be >> Super Vegeta by this point, Goku's SSJ was already >> Super Vegeta in the Cell Games. And I doubt SSJ2 Gohan would have dropped below Super Vegeta's power. SSJ Gohan was stronger than SSJ Goku at the Cell Games who was subsequently stronger than Super Vegeta. I doubt Gohan would drop so far that his powerlevel for SSJ2 was lower than Super Vegeta's. Gohan was still able to fend off Dabura even though Gohan's strength diminished and Dabura was stated to be as strong as Cell so its highly unlikely Gohan received such a massive power drop.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm really having trouble trying to come up with a logical explanation over the base saiyans' strength. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the manga Vegeta one shots pui pui, who Kaioshin was worried about, suggesting that they fight together.
I'd say Dabura =< Perfect Cell v MSSJ Goku. Vegeta implies that he could beat Dabura easily, I'm assuming he's talking about in SSJ perhaps...this would put SSJ Vegeta >> Super Vegeta. Was Vegeta able to go SSJ2 at that point or was it only after the Babidi power-up? I'm under the impression that training in any form increases base strength, Could it be possible that Vegeta mastered SSJ over the 7 years? It's said he is constantly training and I believe under 500G's. For some reason I'm thinking that SSJ2 Gohan (Buu) is only a bit stronger than Super Vegeta (Cell Games 2nd RoSaT)...It just doesn't make sense that Kaioshin is so impressed with base Vegeta who is #2 to Goku but Piccolo is still stronger than both Base Saiyans according to you guys. Do you guys think Gohan loses more than 50% of his strength in 7 years?

Yes, Vegeta more than likely had SSJ2 by the Boo arc. And Vegeta's SSJ should be >> Super Vegeta by this point, Goku's SSJ was already >> Super Vegeta in the Cell Games. And I doubt SSJ2 Gohan would have dropped below Super Vegeta's power. SSJ Gohan was stronger than SSJ Goku at the Cell Games who was subsequently stronger than Super Vegeta. I doubt Gohan would drop so far that his powerlevel for SSJ2 was lower than Super Vegeta's. Gohan was still able to fend off Dabura even though Gohan's strength diminished and Dabura was stated to be as strong as Cell so its highly unlikely Gohan received such a massive power drop.

You know, I've gotten to the point where I don't think Gohan had a massive power drop at all. He got rusty, sure, and his sloppiness shows throughout his fights in the Buu Arc, but I think what makes him so much weaker thatn his child self is that he doesn't get rage boosts anymore.

[IIMaxII]

I'm really having trouble trying to come up with a logical explanation over the base saiyans' strength. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the manga Vegeta one shots pui pui, who Kaioshin was worried about, suggesting that they fight together.
I'd say Dabura =< Perfect Cell v MSSJ Goku. Vegeta implies that he could beat Dabura easily, I'm assuming he's talking about in SSJ perhaps...this would put SSJ Vegeta >> Super Vegeta. Was Vegeta able to go SSJ2 at that point or was it only after the Babidi power-up? I'm under the impression that training in any form increases base strength, Could it be possible that Vegeta mastered SSJ over the 7 years? It's said he is constantly training and I believe under 500G's. For some reason I'm thinking that SSJ2 Gohan (Buu) is only a bit stronger than Super Vegeta (Cell Games 2nd RoSaT)...It just doesn't make sense that Kaioshin is so impressed with base Vegeta who is #2 to Goku but Piccolo is still stronger than both Base Saiyans according to you guys. Do you guys think Gohan loses more than 50% of his strength in 7 years?

Yes, Vegeta more than likely had SSJ2 by the Boo arc. And Vegeta's SSJ should be >> Super Vegeta by this point, Goku's SSJ was already >> Super Vegeta in the Cell Games. And I doubt SSJ2 Gohan would have dropped below Super Vegeta's power. SSJ Gohan was stronger than SSJ Goku at the Cell Games who was subsequently stronger than Super Vegeta. I doubt Gohan would drop so far that his powerlevel for SSJ2 was lower than Super Vegeta's. Gohan was still able to fend off Dabura even though Gohan's strength diminished and Dabura was stated to be as strong as Cell so its highly unlikely Gohan received such a massive power drop.

You know, I've gotten to the point where I don't think Gohan had a massive power drop at all. He got rusty, sure, and his sloppiness shows throughout his fights in the Buu Arc, but I think what makes him so much weaker thatn his child self is that he doesn't get rage boosts anymore.

Wouldn't lack of rage boosts make him weaker anyway?

[Draken]

Wouldn't lack of rage boosts make him weaker anyway?

He's talking normal battle power. Rage boosts don't really count. His normal power is still the same but during the fight with Cell a lot of people agree he got so incredibly strong wasn't just because of SSJ2 but because of a rage boost working alongside it, which he now does not have.

[RandomGuy96]

That's what I firmly believe. I think at one time Vegeta says "Our power is higher than his now, but there's no telling what could happen if he goes into a frenzy". He said this pre-Majin, before he sold his soul to Satan like a douche and before he saw Goku's SS2 burst. Later, Piccolo says that Majin Vegeta may be even stronger than SS2 kid Gohan, and Majin Vegeta says something like "Impressive, your power is greater than Gohan's was back then". It's more or less stated that Majin Vegeta is only slightly stronger than SS2 kid Gohan (enraged), while SS2 Vegeta is weaker than him and possible Super Perfect Cell. Hence why he was confident that his power surpassed Gohan's, yet said that he wasn't sure if he went into a frenzy. So to me:

SS2 Goku >= SS2 Majin Vegeta > Enraged SS2 Gohan > Super Perfect Cell = SS2 Vegeta > SS2 Gohan.

[Kamiccolo9]

Wouldn't lack of rage boosts make him weaker anyway?

He's talking normal battle power. Rage boosts don't really count. His normal power is still the same but during the fight with Cell a lot of people agree he got so incredibly strong wasn't just because of SSJ2 but because of a rage boost working alongside it, which he now does not have.

Yep. Thanks for clarifying that for me!

[IIMaxII]

Is there a multiplier of some sort that lets us know just how much stronger he becomes from rage boosts?

[TheMightyOzaru]

There isn't an official one, no.

[Hitiro]

Is there a multiplier of some sort that lets us know just how much stronger he becomes from rage boosts?

There isn't an official one. But I don't see the rage boost being that high of a multiplier. Obviously it was a significant boost for Gohan to basically destroy Perfect Cell but it has to be something reasonable as to not put SSJ3 Goku over 30 billion considering that a Genki Dama with all of the Earthlings, Namekian's and Z-Fighters Genki wouldn't be above 30-40 billion which would mean the Genki Dama wouldn't have been enough to defeat Boo. I'd say with the Rage boost ontop of SSJ2 Gohan was 3x to 5x stronger than what he was as a SSJ. So 150x to 250x his base. That would be a multiplier of 1.5 to 2.5 on top of his SSJ2.

[Draken]

Is there a multiplier of some sort that lets us know just how much stronger he becomes from rage boosts?

There isn't an official one. But I don't see the rage boost being that high of a multiplier. Obviously it was a significant boost for Gohan to basically destroy Perfect Cell but it has to be something reasonable as to not put SSJ3 Goku over 30 billion considering that a Genki Dama with all of the Earthlings, Namekian's and Z-Fighters Genki wouldn't be above 30-40 billion which would mean the Genki Dama wouldn't have been enough to defeat Boo. I'd say with the Rage boost ontop of SSJ2 Gohan was 3x to 5x stronger than what he was as a SSJ. So 150x to 250x his base. That would be a multiplier of 1.5 to 2.5 on top of his SSJ2.

That's still an enormous multiplier O_O. Would equal Gohan's SSJ2 being as strong as if he had went SSJ3. I don't think the multiplier is THAT huge... Especially because that later inflates everyone else's powers.