Unpopular DB opinions

[Hades]

Oh god, the denial about Goku's real character is reaching Captain Walker (Spec Ops: The Line) levels. Face it, Just as Captain Walker massacred the people of Dubai, Cell's and Majin Buu's rampages are all Goku's fault, and they both throw up a mask of denial. The former, with feigning coercion from outside forces, and the latter with a mask "purity of heart" and generic shonen rubbish. It is pretty damn fortunate that Gohan, for all his insanity inducing traumas, didn't go on his own rampage either. Goku had a chance to confront Dr. Gero before he started his rampage, but his insistence on playing the hero almost got everyone killed. He had a chance to put an end to Majin Buu's rampage, but he insisted that two inexperienced children be put to the task. The US sent millions of inexperienced conscripts to the Vietnam War and we both know how that turned out.

[ABED]

Let's completely dismiss Vegeta's role in both Cell and Buu's rampages. Put it all on Goku.

And again with the trauma induced sanity. Even in the real world, people handle bad situations differently.

Last but certainly not least, this isn't the real world, and so real world morality doesn't apply.

As to your point about inexperience conscripts - that happened in every war when there was a draft. What the history books usually don't tell you is that America won many of the major battles, but lost due to politics.

[Hades]

Let's completely dismiss Vegeta's role in both Cell and Buu's rampages. Put it all on Goku.

I was talking about moments when Goku's agency (not Vegeta's) set the path for their rampages. He could have listened to Bulma and set the plan out to confront Gero (Vegeta would have to comply, however grudgingly). But he wanted a fight, so we got the whole Android Boogaloo. He could have stopped Buu when he had the chance, but he felt that a pair of inexperienced kids who had no idea on how to fight anything like Buu should be the ones to do it. If Goku's a good hero, then Big Boss is the best dad ever.

The comment about Gohan was an aside more than anything else.

[ABED]

Bulma was the lone voice of dissent. Hell even Piccolo and Gohan were on board. Letting Gero finish his creations wasn't a unilatteral decision. He put the fate of the world on the shoulder of children (he was a fighter when he was young and so was Gohan) because he felt that the world can't keep depending on him especially when he's dead. It's like when parents don't help their child out financially because they want the child to be able to take care of themself. Trunks and Goten might have been inexperience, but they weren't greenhorns. Goku saw that at the tournament.

Goku's a great hero and who's big boss?

You completely dismiss him defeating all the enemies he defeated including both Piccolos, Tao Pai Pai, the Red Ribbon Army, the Ginyu Special Corps, etc. If Cell didn't come along, they wouldn't have had the power to defeat Buu.

[Hades]

Goku's as good a hero as Captain Walker from Spec Ops: The Line. the only differences between the two are that 1) the former is painfully straight, while the latter demonstrates that a Goku style protagonist would be a terrible person. 2) Walker went insane because of what he did, while Goku is too ignorant to acknowledge any wrongdoing on his part.

Goku knows that he wouldn't stand a chance against the Androids, and has an opportunity to prevent them from being a threat. Does he take that opportunity? Nope, because as the designated hero, he must have a fight.

As for Buu, Goku's attitude to sending Goten and Trunks to face Buu would be like sending a plucky level 1 adventurer directly against the final boss.

[ABED]

He doesn't know that he has no chance against the Cyborgs. Please stop bringing up Spec Ops and insanity. We're dealing with a cartoonish world with poop on a stick. It ain't that serious.

Again, Goku isn't alone, and everyone didn't just go along with him. No one voiced a dissenting opinion besides Bulma. I would trust Goku because he doesn't fail when the chips are down.

Except that Goku thinks that the plucky adventurer will be far stronger than the boss when he gets a huge power up.

[DBZAOTA482]

Let's completely dismiss Vegeta's role in both Cell and Buu's rampages. Put it all on Goku.

Yes. Even if Vegeta didn't allow Cell to become perfect he would have achieved it eventually and Kaioshits' stupidity is to blame for Majin Boo's imprisonment. If he weren't such a whiny little pantywaist things would have went smoothly.

[Hades]

Again, Goku isn't alone, and everyone didn't just go along with him. No one voiced a dissenting opinion besides Bulma. I would trust Goku because he doesn't fail when the chips are down.

Trunks told him outright that the Androids would kill everyone, including Vegeta (second strongest out there. ). Surely Goku would know when discretion would surmise that he was out of his league, and realise that prevention is better than preparation.

Except that Goku thinks that the plucky adventurer will be far stronger than the boss when he gets a huge power up.

That was quite a reckless gamble that could have gotten the whole universe destroyed.

[rereboy]

Trunks told him outright that the Androids would kill everyone, including Vegeta (second strongest out there. ). Surely Goku would know when discretion would surmise that he was out of his league, and realise that prevention is better than preparation.

No, Trunks told him that in his world, Goku wasn't even there to face off the androids because he had died from a decease and the others weren't strong enough to defeat them when they appeared. By giving Goku the cure, Trunks was already changing plenty, making sure that Goku would be there to help them face off the androids and, on top of that, he warned Goku, so they all had the chance to train as hard as they could for three years in preparation for their arrival.

Trunks never told them that they would die no matter what, like you seem to be implying.

Also, if they wanted to stop Dr. Gero before he created the androids, how would they do it? Would they kill a weak human in cold blood before he actually caused harm to anyone? Would it be alright morally to kill someone preventably? Or would they have him arrested? On what grounds? Legally or illegally? And would that even be sufficient in making sure he never escaped or that the androids would never get built? If you really want to talk about morals, then the choice isn't as easy as saying they should stop him. And this problem is actually brought up by Goku himself in the manga, who, despite his own selfish reasons, is nonetheless right in saying, morally speaking, that if he hasn't done anything bad yet, it wouldn't be nice to just attack him. Bulma is the only one who seems more than comfortable with the idea of preventing him no matter what.

[TheGmGoken]

Oh god, the denial about Goku's real character is reaching Captain Walker (Spec Ops: The Line) levels. Face it, Just as Captain Walker massacred the people of Dubai, Cell's and Majin Buu's rampages are all Goku's fault, and they both throw up a mask of denial. The former, with feigning coercion from outside forces, and the latter with a mask "purity of heart" and generic shonen rubbish. It is pretty damn fortunate that Gohan, for all his insanity inducing traumas, didn't go on his own rampage either. Goku had a chance to confront Dr. Gero before he started his rampage, but his insistence on playing the hero almost got everyone killed. He had a chance to put an end to Majin Buu's rampage, but he insisted that two inexperienced children be put to the task. The US sent millions of inexperienced conscripts to the Vietnam War and we both know how that turned out.

Vegeta and Piccolo both agreed not to attack Dr. Gero. It wasn't just Goku. During Buu saga I admit Goku was an ass. But you can't blame him for not wanting to save the world for the 10th time. Maybe he didn't want to be the hero.

[ABED]

Kaio-sama told Goku not to fight Freeza, that he was outmatched.

Yes, putting the world in the hands of Trunks and Goten was a gamble, but Goku didn't know about Buu's transformations, and the world needed to stand on its own two feet without him.

[Hades]

No, Trunks told him that in his world, Goku wasn't even there to face off the androids because he had died from a decease and the others weren't strong enough to defeat them when they appeared. By giving Goku the cure, Trunks was already changing plenty, making sure that Goku would be there to help them face off the androids and, on top of that, he warned Goku, so they all had the chance to train as hard as they could for three years in preparation for their arrival.

Surely Trunks would know that no matter how much he and Gohan trained, they couldn't do much against the Androids.

Trunks never told them that they would die no matter what, like you seem to be implying.

True enough.

Also, if they wanted to stop Dr. Gero before he created the androids, how would they do it? Would they kill a weak human in cold blood before he actually caused harm to anyone? Would it be alright morally to kill someone preventably? Or would they have him arrested? On what grounds? Legally or illegally? And would that even be sufficient in making sure he never escaped or that the androids would never get built? If you really want to talk about morals, then the choice isn't as easy as saying they should stop him. And this problem is actually brought up by Goku himself in the manga, who, despite his own selfish reasons, is nonetheless right in saying, morally speaking, that if he hasn't done anything bad yet, it wouldn't be nice to just attack him. Bulma is the only one who seems more than comfortable with the idea of preventing him no matter what.

As I said before, if you found yourself in late 1960s seattle, and saw Ted Bundy before he started killing people, would you kill him to stop his murders?

[ABED]

Trunks couldn't know that. He might believe so, but he doesn't know and that doesn't matter. Just because Goku hears that someone is too strong for him, has that ever stopped him or stopped him from winning?

Why is this on Goku? If Trunks was so scared about the Cyborgs, why didn't he just go back in time and stop Gero himself?

[rereboy]

Vegeta and Piccolo both agreed not to attack Dr. Gero. It wasn't just Goku. During Buu saga I admit Goku was an ass. But you can't blame him for not wanting to save the world for the 10th time. Maybe he didn't want to be the hero.

Or maybe he was right in believing that a fusion between the kids would be more than enough to kill Fat Buu and that Earth could use another savior besides an already dead one. And guess what, Gotenks proved to be more than enough to kill Fat Buu. He just couldn't destroy Super Buu, who was a more powerful Buu than Fat Buu and whose arrival Goku could never have guessed. And still, Gotenks almost killed even that Buu. He was just unlucky with his time limit.

Of course you could say that Goku could have just defeated Fat Buu himself, not leaving him for the kids, since he thought he could defeat him. But what if he Fat Buu proved to be tougher to kill than Goku anticipated? What if Goku used up all of his remaining time in the living world fighting Buu before he actually managed to inflict the final blow on Buu? The kids still needed guidance with fusion... Which means that if Goku tried to kill Fat Buu and failed to do so with the time he had left in the living world, which would greatly diminish as he fought Buu with his SSJ3, it would be all over, Earth would be doomed.

So Goku chose to leave that task to the kids, not only because he believed that Gotenks would also be strong enough to defeat Fat Buu, but also because that solution would give Earth a living champion for the future.

So unlike what most fans think, either option would be a gamble on Goku's part. He would either fight Fat Buu himself, and risk it all in his ability to destroy Fat Buu in the time he had on the living world, or he would finish teaching Fusion to the kids and let them kill him. Either solution was a gamble but he also thought that either one of them would succeed in killing Buu. He simply chose the one which had more advantages for the future of Earth. Considering all this, is Goku's choice such a bad one...?

[rereboy]

Surely Trunks would know that no matter how much he and Gohan trained, they couldn't do much against the Androids.

That's not true at all. If Trunks believed that they stood no chance of defeating the androids in battle, why didn't Trunks just tell Goku that their only chance would be to stop Gero before he unleashed them? Why did Trunks even say that he would return to help them against the androids in the future, and then actually show up, if he believed they had no chance?

The manga implies the opposite of what you are saying. It all seems to imply that Trunks expected to have produced enough chances in the timeline for them to be able to defeat the androids.

As I said before, if you found yourself in late 1960s seattle, and saw Ted Bundy before he started killing people, would you kill him to stop his murders?

That answer depends on the person who answers it. Some people would say they would kill him and others would say that they wouldn't kill him. The point is that is not a simple question and its not a question without controversy. It may be obvious to you what you would do, but someone else that would choose differently is not stupid or objectively wrong in making a choice opposite to yours. That person would just be wrong according to your personal view on morality and choices.

That means that it doesn't make much sense to be morally criticizing that choice or lack of choice like its an obvious one with one obviously correct answer for everyone.

Like I said, there's even an example of this in the manga... Bulma seems to have no problem in stopping him (possibly by killing him) before he actually does anything which means that doesn't seem to be against her morals at all, but Goku, despite his selfish reasons, actually objects on the moral ground of being wrong to attack someone that hasn't done anything yet (and also because he wants to fight the androids). Its a perfect example of the differences of morality regarding this question.

[TheGmGoken]

As I said before, if you found yourself in late 1960s seattle, and saw Ted Bundy before he started killing people, would you kill him to stop his murders?

Nope. He didn't do nothing wrong YET. Now once he started killing people I would kill him.

[TheGmGoken]

Vegeta and Piccolo both agreed not to attack Dr. Gero. It wasn't just Goku. During Buu saga I admit Goku was an ass. But you can't blame him for not wanting to save the world for the 10th time. Maybe he didn't want to be the hero.

Or maybe he was right in believing that a fusion between the kids would be more than enough to kill Fat Buu and that Earth could use another savior besides an already dead one. And guess what, Gotenks proved to be more than enough to kill Fat Buu. He just couldn't destroy Super Buu, who was a more powerful Buu than Fat Buu and whose arrival Goku could never have guessed. And still, Gotenks almost killed even that Buu. He was just unlucky with his time limit.

Of course you could say that Goku could have just defeated Fat Buu himself, not leaving him for the kids, since he thought he could defeat him. But what if he Fat Buu proved to be tougher to kill than Goku anticipated? What if Goku used up all of his remaining time in the living world fighting Buu before he actually managed to inflict the final blow on Buu? The kids still needed guidance with fusion... Which means that if Goku tried to kill Fat Buu and failed to do so with the time he had left in the living world, which would greatly diminish as he fought Buu with his SSJ3, it would be all over, Earth would be doomed.

So Goku chose to leave that task to the kids, not only because he believed that Gotenks would also be strong enough to defeat Fat Buu, but also because that solution would give Earth a living champion for the future.

So unlike what most fans think, either option would be a gamble on Goku's part. He would either fight Fat Buu himself, and risk it all in his ability to destroy Fat Buu in the time he had on the living world, or he would finish teaching Fusion to the kids and let them kill him. Either solution was a gamble but he also thought that either one of them would succeed in killing Buu. He simply chose the one which had more advantages for the future of Earth. Considering all this, is Goku's choice such a bad one...?

Why so much attitude. You pretty much said the SAME thing I said but expanded it more.

[rereboy]

I'm not giving attitude to anyone. I'm just giving my opinion on the subject of Goku's choices in the Buu arc because that was being discussed. I just happened to pick your comment to trail my own thoughts from, but I didn't choose it for any particular reason.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku and Vegeta are the true villains of the series.

[Michsi]

But every story arc since the Piccolo Daimao Saga was about Goku's past coming back to nip him in the bud, and Dr. Gero (the scientist that worked under the RRA) build those artificial beings to seek revenge against Goku.

No, it wasn't. Only Raditz and Gero were somewhat like this.

Wouldn't the Piccolo Daimao arc qualify too? Pilaf freed Piccolo because Goku and co. kept thwarting his plans and he couldn't defeat him on his own.