Yea sorry about that. I accidentally clicked submit.VegettoEX wrote:He very purposefully doesn't explain these things, which -- quite honestly -- is one of the reasons I like it so much. If everything's just literally explained and mapped out, there's no spontaneity or interesting storytelling to be done.TheGmGoken wrote:I think Akira Toriyama should explain some more things about Dbz. Some-times I know he's not the type to explain and just do but we really need an explanation of Ki, Fusion, Vegito, SSG, and Whis. Toei needs to explain DBGT some more. It's the only way we can understand the show some more. No disrespect to Mr. Toriyama but he's not exactly the best a explaining things.
Also, folks, please preview your posts before making them. Too many broken quotes!
Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
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TheGmGoken
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
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RandomGuy96
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
We know his full power. There is no debate here, the guides just told us.
His full power is, at the wankiest, eight times stronger than Baby Saga SS4 Goku.
His full power is, at the wankiest, eight times stronger than Baby Saga SS4 Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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TheGmGoken
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
I think GT logic ruins this debate. IF he's 8 times stronger then Baby Saga SSJ4 Goku we need to know he much stronger Goku became. If he didn't get stronger then Vegito is stronger then every but The last Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta.RandomGuy96 wrote:We know his full power. There is no debate here, the guides just told us.
His full power is, at the wankiest, eight times stronger than Baby Saga SS4 Goku.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
No at the wankiest he is more than 8x stronger than SSJ4 Goku
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Syn Shenron is stronger than normal SSJ4. SSJ4 beyond his limits is stronger than Syn Shenron. Omega is x10 stronger than SSJ4 beyond limits ( stated by Omega ).
If Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Kakarotto are in the same league, Syn Shenron is stronger than both. Later we see SSJ4 beyond limits stomps easily Syn Shenron. If SSJ4 Goku beyond his limits is far stronger than Super Vegetto, Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto maybe is still weaker than SSJ4 Beyond his limits.
If we speak of a SSJ3 Vegetto, then we could talk about SSJ4 Kakarotto beyond his limits. If SSJ3 Vegetto is 8 times stronger than normal SSJ4 Kakarotto, how many times SSJ4 beyond his limits is stronger than normal SSJ4? How many times SSJ1 Grade 3 or Full Power is stronger than normal SSJ1? The differences between those two examples in the same transformation are really big as we saw in the manga/anime.
For me in this idea about SSJ3 Vegetto, I still think that SSJ4 Goku beyond his limits is stronger than him.
If Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Kakarotto are in the same league, Syn Shenron is stronger than both. Later we see SSJ4 beyond limits stomps easily Syn Shenron. If SSJ4 Goku beyond his limits is far stronger than Super Vegetto, Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto maybe is still weaker than SSJ4 Beyond his limits.
If we speak of a SSJ3 Vegetto, then we could talk about SSJ4 Kakarotto beyond his limits. If SSJ3 Vegetto is 8 times stronger than normal SSJ4 Kakarotto, how many times SSJ4 beyond his limits is stronger than normal SSJ4? How many times SSJ1 Grade 3 or Full Power is stronger than normal SSJ1? The differences between those two examples in the same transformation are really big as we saw in the manga/anime.
For me in this idea about SSJ3 Vegetto, I still think that SSJ4 Goku beyond his limits is stronger than him.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
I think it's better to ignore all GT statements/feats, because we got:TheGmGoken wrote:I think GT logic ruins this debate.
Oozaru Vegeta < SS Vegeta < SS4 Vegeta
SS3 Goku (DBZ) =< Base Goku < SS Goku < SS4 Goku
SS Goku > SS Vegeta
SS4 Goku < Oozaru Vegeta
SS4 Goku = SS4 Vegeta
Everything makes perfect sense!
(unnecessary meme image removed by administrator)
I won't even get to the DB/Z anime-only statement/feats, and how much sense they make.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Fusions should always be stronger than their parts.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Why? Transformation multipliers can exceed fusion increases...Rocketman wrote:Fusions should always be stronger than their parts.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Not really. That's illogical.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Super Saiyan 4 Goku should be stronger than base Gogeta, or Super Saiyan Gogeta.Drayenko wrote:Not really. That's illogical.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Because one person's hidden powers should always be less than that same person's hidden powers combined with another person's hidden powers.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Why? Transformation multipliers can exceed fusion increases...Rocketman wrote:Fusions should always be stronger than their parts.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Your problem is that you think that these hidden powers have end limits. You think Goku can never surpass Gohan because his hidden potential is greater than Goku's. While Gohan's is greater, Goku can still train to increase his potential. If Gohan trained just as much as Goku, Gohan would remain superior till the end up time, problem is he doesn't and he lets that superior potential rot while Goku continues to increase his own. If something small continues to grow while something big remains the same, the small will surpass the big.Rocketman wrote:Because one person's hidden powers should always be less than that same person's hidden powers combined with another person's hidden powers.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Why? Transformation multipliers can exceed fusion increases...Rocketman wrote:Fusions should always be stronger than their parts.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
And what magical training can Goku do that plumps his base up higher than fusing with Vegeta?
Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
GT feats are really hard to incorporate into Z as they fluctuate way too much.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I think it's better to ignore all GT statements/feats, because we got:TheGmGoken wrote:I think GT logic ruins this debate.
Oozaru Vegeta < SS Vegeta < SS4 Vegeta
SS3 Goku (DBZ) =< Base Goku < SS Goku < SS4 Goku
SS Goku > SS Vegeta
SS4 Goku < Oozaru Vegeta
SS4 Goku = SS4 Vegeta
Everything makes perfect sense!
(unnecessary meme image removed by administrator)
I won't even get to the DB/Z anime-only statement/feats, and how much sense they make.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Just training... There aren't end limits in Dragon Ball. It's also not just training, it's transformations as well.Rocketman wrote:And what magical training can Goku do that plumps his base up higher than fusing with Vegeta?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
I partially agree with Rocketman. Regular training for Goku won't cut it. Goku would need some form of special training (excluding SSJG happening) to catch up (which in Dragon Ball seems to appear out of nowhere all the time). Regular training won't cut it. And that's before factoring when Goku's body can't train anymore as when his body gets old he won't be able to to push it as hard as when it's younger.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Just training... There aren't end limits in Dragon Ball. It's also not just training, it's transformations as well.Rocketman wrote:And what magical training can Goku do that plumps his base up higher than fusing with Vegeta?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
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miguelnuva1
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Super Baby 1> Supe r Vegito was confirmed by Goku.
Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Super Vegetto perhaps stronger then SS4 confirmed in guidebook. Last time Perhaps was said in Comparison of Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Kid Gohan with MV being perhaps stronger when he is confirmed stronger. Ergo Super Vegetto is likely above SSJ4 Goku Baby saga as that was when the guide book was published.miguelnuva1 wrote:Super Baby 1> Supe r Vegito was confirmed by Goku.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
There is Otherworld.... He can continue to grow for all eternity.dbzfan7 wrote:I partially agree with Rocketman. Regular training for Goku won't cut it. Goku would need some form of special training (excluding SSJG happening) to catch up (which in Dragon Ball seems to appear out of nowhere all the time). Regular training won't cut it. And that's before factoring when Goku's body can't train anymore as when his body gets old he won't be able to to push it as hard as when it's younger.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Just training... There aren't end limits in Dragon Ball. It's also not just training, it's transformations as well.Rocketman wrote:And what magical training can Goku do that plumps his base up higher than fusing with Vegeta?
Strongest Ki he had felt. Does that take into account himself fused with Vegeta? Probably not.miguelnuva1 wrote:Super Baby 1> Supe r Vegito was confirmed by Goku.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Super Saiyan God <=> Vegetto?
Well I mean in his lifetime he would need special training. When dead it can be accomplished over a long period without special training.TheMightyOzaru wrote: There is Otherworld.... He can continue to grow for all eternity.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler: