Happy Father's Day! Japanese Fans Vote Goku as Coolest Dad!

[ABED]

I do realize Chichi is a parody of a housewife and mother, but I think a good mother wouldn't try to control her child or husband in that way. They would show more support than she does and if she has concern, it wouldn't manifest as "NO, YOU WILL DO WHAT I SAY, AND I SAY STUDY!" Again, I point to how she treated Goku who just came back to life and was literally broken.

[fogdark]

Wow, I knew this thread was going to be filled with discussions, but not this much

Look, the truth of the matter is, Dragon Ball is filled with instances that would not make sense in the real world. And most, if not all, of these weird occurrences happened because it is a manga. That is fact. Chi-Chi acted the way she acted because she became a gag depicting the stereotype of a Japanese mother, and Goku acted the way he acted because as the protagonist of a shonen, he was always going to train and become stronger and stronger all the time.
Sure, Goku is not the best dad and husband. I think we can all agree on that. Why? Because he's the protagonist of a Shonen series. If we take a look at most shonen manga, we never see the protagonist become a father. Most of the time we never see the protagonist as an adult! So to have Goku, the embodiment of the Shonen spirit, also be a father and a husband was going to bring problems. But hey!, it gave us great comedic moments, so I'm not complaining.

Also, Toriyama never shows what happens during the many years of peace time, so it's up to the fans to imagine how life was for the characters during those periods of time. I just find it funny how Vegeta was a great dad/husband during the 7 years after Cell and the 10 years after Buu. Years that we never saw. And meanwhile, Goku was the worst dad/husband during the 5 years after marrying Chi-Chi, the 3 years prior to the arrival of the androids, and the 10 years after Buu. Years that, once again, we never saw.
We as fans assume many things, it's only natural. And since Toriyama is only comfortable creating fights and gags, we really won't ever know how good or bad Goku, Vegeta, or any other parent in the series for that matter, was.
At the end of the day, we only have what we do see in the manga as proof. Bulma cried for Vegeta when she learned of his death in the Buu saga and Trunks looks up to his dad, as a kid and as an adult. So yeah, Vegeta certainly did something right after the Cell saga or he certainly wouldn't have any of that.
Meanwhile, Chi-Chi cried when Goku died, and cried again when she saw him 7 years later and again when he told her he was staying in the world of the living for good. And Gohan and Goten both look up to, and respect their father. So yeah, if Goku was the terrible father/husband some of you make him out to be, how did he manage to have and keep the love of not only his wife, but also of his kids?
I'm convinced that in Toriyama's head, Goku is a good dad/husband. But he never knew how to show that in his manga.

And to finish this, I think some of you need to remember how Goku "was never there":

-Goku marries Chi-Chi and they live together for 5 years straight. (good)
-Goku dies, and returns 1 year later. (not his fault)
-Goku stays a little more than 1 year and a half in space (not all that good)
-Goku stays home for 3 years while also training (good)
-Goku decides to spend the remaining 10 days before the Cell games with his family. (good)
-Goku dies and decides to stay dead for 7 years. (bad)
-Goku stays at home for 10 years after Buu's defeat. (good)
-Goku leaves to train Uub, but promises to visit. (not all that good)

In total, Goku spent around 18 years of his life with his family, and is absent 9 years, more or less. Yeah, he won't win the "best father ever" award any time soon, but he certainly spend most of his life with Chi-Chi and his sons. He definitely wasn't "never there".

......it's on occasions like this, that I realize how much of a Dragon Ball "fanboy" I am

[ABED]

Why is Goku's decision to stay dead a bad thing if he thinks it'll protect the people he loves?

[Gaffer Tape]

Anyway, I don't think anyone is claiming Vegeta is not a mass-murdering psychopath.

Well, actually, that's exactly the claim that started this debate in the first place.

Excuse me but Vegeta is hardly a mass-murdering psychopath post-Freeza Saga. Thank you very much.

So, yeah, that's why I'm having this discussion.

But I personally think that majin Vegeta at the World Tournament was influenced by Babidi's spell, not to the extent that he lost control of his own mind, more like it brought out his evil and psychopatic side to the surface (a side that never went away but was kept repressed because of his conscience/his family?) so he wouldn't have any qualms about killing all those people. He had nothing to lose (he'd already sold his soul to the devil, including his family) so why the heck shouldn't he go to extreme measures to goad Goku into a fight? The behavior we see here is something we haven't seen from him since Namek, he looked outright insane.

Okay. Let's say that someone literally forces a large amount of alcohol down your throat. You become drunk and do some really stupid things. Some really illegal things. Some things that really hurt (both emotionally and physically) other people. Are you responsible for those actions? No, of course not, because you had no choice in the matter. Granted, a person with any kind of conscience would probably feel responsible for such things, but it's not their fault because they had no choice.

Now let's say you just get rip roaring drunk on your own accord and start beating people up and otherwise acting a fool. "Well, it's not my fault," you said. "I would never normally act like that. It was the alcohol." Well, it doesn't matter. You made the choice to do that. You are responsible for your actions.

We know for a fact that Vegeta falls into the latter category. He gives a whole big monologue about how he made this decision and goes into great detail about why he made that decision. And so this is not even analogous to someone being horrified at how they acted when they're drunk. This is analogous to someone saying, "Hmm. I'm just not capable of breaking that person's nose while I'm sober. I'd better go and get drunk so I can do it without remorse." And that's almost literally what he says!

And before anyone says that maybe it's just Vegeta's pride making him say that it was totally under his control, I could buy that except that he then demonstrates that he is in fact acting on his own, and even Babidi confirms this. So, again, I'm just not really sure what your point is. So there were "extenuating circumstances." How does this make him less of a mass-murdering psychopath? How does this in any way justify/mitigate his actions or make him any less responsible?

[VyeRo]

I completely agree, Gaffer Tape. I was not trying to prove that Vegeta should not be held accountable for his actions, because he was fully responsible for those deaths. I meant to give my view on why and how Vegeta went from psychopatic killer (Namek) to 'domesticated' family man (post-Cell and also a little bit during Cell) to psychopatic killer again. I believe that Babidi's spell had an influence on that, because it's just a big transition. Even though Vegeta's evil side never went away completely I think he did become less evil over time and didn't kill anymore. I don't know, I find it hard to imagine Vegeta doing the same thing at the World Tournament just like that, with no prior warning, no Majin spell, no hint at all that Vegeta was 'keeping low' all this time (if he did he's a damn good actor).

He confessed that his family attachments made him weak, I think that's why he needed the spell (and the powerup) to get in touch with his psychopatic side.
But he made that choice so he's fully responsible for those deaths.

I just don't agree with people saying he was keeping low, he was ~evilz all that time, he didn't care enough about his family (the opposite is true) etc etc. There was a reason he needed to get possessed and that's just it. But that's my personal view on his character so..

[DBZAOTA482]

Apparently, this thread has derailed into the "Is Chi-Chi the harpy bitch from hell or is Vegeta the psychotic mass-murdering jerk sue?".

Worth noting that the last time Chichi saw Piccolo, he tried to kill her. And the last time she'd heard of him, he'd killed Goku and kidnapped Gohan.

Fair enough, but I don't think she would've cared had it been Tenshinhan. If you need any more proof that she's irrational, then look no further than how she treats Goku after the fight against the Saiyans. He's broken and yet she shows no concern for him, even going so far as to claim he got Gohan into that predicament. She shows absolutely no concern for his well being. This is her husband, who she hasn't seen for a year because he was dead and she couldn't care less.

Yes, but Goku was dead so naturally nothing worse can happen to him and likewise, she probably doesn't know Shenlong can't repeat wishes plus Goku fed Piccolo a senzu so he can get stronger and fight him in the future so from her POV, Goku must have guaranteed his death, whereas with Gohan she didn't know what he was going through and the next she sees him he's dragged into a battle to the death. She also didn't outright say she wouldn't take care of Goku just uspet Gohan got involved (the scene clearly shows she was going to let anyone have it anyways since Gohan obviously didn't fight on his own accord) and even in the anime, she was depicted taking care of him during his recuperation.

ITT: Most of the cations for Goku's bad parenting skills are from the Cell Games and the Boo Saga. Intriguing, considering Toriyama-sensei's latest editor tânto took over by that point.

[Rocketman]

Apparently, this thread has derailed into the "Is Chi-Chi the harpy bitch from hell or is Vegeta the psychotic mass-murdering jerk sue?".

Because any criticism of Goku turns into BUT EVERYBODY ELSE IS BAD TOO.

[Gaffer Tape]

Not really. In this case, it started as more of a, "Any criticism of Goku makes me want to raise the mass-murderer on a pedestal for comparison's sake."

[fogdark]

Why is Goku's decision to stay dead a bad thing if he thinks it'll protect the people he loves?

I do think Goku truly believed that, and that was part of the reason he decided to stay dead. I even think Toriyama wanted us to think that Goku was choosing to stay dead so that his friends would be safer. The thing is, Toriyama obviously didn't think too much about it when making Goku stay dead, so the end result is that Goku looks bad with his choice. There's no way around it. Goku said Bulma once told him he attracted enemies, but even as a kid, when I first heard that, I thought, "when the hell did Bulma say something like that?"
If Toriyama had planned this a little better, and shown us Bulma say this to Goku in a way we wouldn't forget, then his decision to stay dead wouldn't look nearly as bad. As it stands now, what he said looks like an excuse to simply go and fight strong people in the aferlife.

[ABED]

Apparently, this thread has derailed into the "Is Chi-Chi the harpy bitch from hell or is Vegeta the psychotic mass-murdering jerk sue?".

Worth noting that the last time Chichi saw Piccolo, he tried to kill her. And the last time she'd heard of him, he'd killed Goku and kidnapped Gohan.

Fair enough, but I don't think she would've cared had it been Tenshinhan. If you need any more proof that she's irrational, then look no further than how she treats Goku after the fight against the Saiyans. He's broken and yet she shows no concern for him, even going so far as to claim he got Gohan into that predicament. She shows absolutely no concern for his well being. This is her husband, who she hasn't seen for a year because he was dead and she couldn't care less.

Yes, but Goku was dead so naturally nothing worse can happen to him and likewise, she probably doesn't know Shenlong can't repeat wishes plus Goku fed Piccolo a senzu so he can get stronger and fight him in the future so from her POV, Goku must have guaranteed his death, whereas with Gohan she didn't know what he was going through and the next she sees him he's dragged into a battle to the death. She also didn't outright say she wouldn't take care of Goku just uspet Gohan got involved (the scene clearly shows she was going to let anyone have it anyways since Gohan obviously didn't fight on his own accord) and even in the anime, she was depicted taking care of him during his recuperation.

What? I'm having a very hard time following your train of thought. What does feeding Piccolo a senzu have to do with how she treats HER HUSBAND?! She doesn't show him any love. Why the hell would she blame Goku for what happened to Gohan? It's one thing to show more concern for an innocent child, but she gave her husband the cold shoulder. You know, the man who saved the child's life.

If Toriyama had planned this a little better, and shown us Bulma say this to Goku in a way we wouldn't forget, then his decision to stay dead wouldn't look nearly as bad. As it stands now, what he said looks like an excuse to simply go and fight strong people in the aferlife.
I remember her saying so, and if I recall, Goku mentions Bulma saying that in his farewell speech. I don't know what Toriyama could've done to make her line stand out more. Goku's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but his reason makes sense to him and his friends and family, and me for that matter. No way he could've forseen Buu. It's not like heroes are infallible. Given that there would be no friends and family to miss him without his help, Goku's entitled to do pretty much what he wants.

[VyeRo]

This raises an interesting question: Would Goku have stood by his decision to stay dead had he known about Chichi's pregnancy?