Can higher levels of Super Saiyan be mastered?

[Draken]

Holding back =/= Suppressed.

[Undertaker]

Raditz doesn't even know how to suppress his ki so I am disappointed that you would use him as proof. Goku said he was going to go all out against Pure boo yes, but afterwards he says that he showed off too much and thought he could do better that way. Vegeta even said that Goku needs to gather his ki up for a minute to full power which means Goku was suppressed against Pure boo in SSJ3. Goku was dead against Fat boo, which means it was easier to hold onto the transformation. The problem was that he only had 24 hours of energy usage. Goku held back against Fat boo, if he had gone Full power, his time would likely be done for on Earth. He intended to finish teaching the fusion basics to the boys.

It doesn't matter what Raditz knows. I say that Goku did what Raditz did because he probably can't suppress his power as a SSJ3 like Raditz so he just lowers his effort vs Fat Boo

You first said going all out means full power and now you say Goku was suppressed vs Pure Boo? Goku was fighting his hardest vs Pure Boo and lost due to the strain over his body. The strain weakens his body. Goku was weakened after his fight vs Pure Boo. Vegeta tells him to power up to full power AGAIN so he probably can use an amplified attack. That's what Goku wantd to do

You proved my point? His time on Earth was so limited due to his transformation because he could not control his SSJ3 power at all

You also forget the fact that Fat Boo was weaker than the Goku he fough and ot doesn't make sense for Goku to be suppressed because SSJ3 Goku is not leagues ahead of Fat Boo

Again, using Raditz as proof is no excuse. Yes, going all out means you are at full power, but you completely misunderstood what I told you on that part. Goku stated that he hasn't gotten the chance to power up because he showed off too much. He became overconfident in other words and that resulted into him overestimated his own body. Vegeta never said to power up again, he just said to power up :

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

So in other words, Goku did claim he was going to go all out, but then admits that he showed off and thought he could do better that way, and that lead to Goku's stamina to start dropping due to that mistake he made. Piccolo questioning Goku if he could have won or not is proof enough that Goku was holding back because at the time, the fight could have gone both ways due to Goku stalling and playing around with Boo. Goku's energy time on earth further supports me. He had to hold back because he intended SSJ Gotenks to defeat him and it also would have possibly drained up the remaining time he had left.

Raditz can control his power which is why he said the power of his blows would get stronger meaning he was holding back effort. I say SSJ3 Goku can't control his power like Raditz could not so he did the same Raditz did. He just was not fighting seriously or even tried hard vs Boo. He was holding back effort

Goku was at full power vs Pure Boo. He says he would go all out and even fought his hardest. Goku was at full power when they started fighting but since it's difficult for him to mantain the SSJ3 due to the strain over his body so his power started decreasing

Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”

When he said about gathering ki - what he meant was that if he gathers ki at 1 point - A full power KHH, he can possibly destroy buu.

Piccolo asking Goku if he could of beaten him doesn't mean Goku was holding back power. Holding back=/=suppressed. He probably meant that if he wanted he could of won but he didn't want to

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Holding back=/=suppressed is your opinion. You say that like it's a fact when it wasn't stated. Goku showed off and acted too cool against Pure boo in the beginning of his fight, what part of this aren't you understanding? Exactly, a full power KHH which means he wasn't full power against Pure boo in the first place. Nothing was said about him "recharging back to full power". He has been trying to get to full power later in the fight after he showed off and thought he could do better than him causing him to overestimate his own body.
Goku : When I fought Fat boo, I would have been able to beat him but wanted the young guys to manage something.
This tells us he was holding back power causing Piccolo to ask Goku if he could have won.
Hell, Gohan wasn't even using his full power against Cell until he wiped out SPC. Gohan was suppressed after getting damaged in the arm meaning he wasn't full power.
Gohan was holding back because he was afraid of the damage happening to the earth.

[rereboy]

Holding back=/=suppressed is your opinion. You say that like it's a fact when it wasn't stated.

If holding back wasn't different than being suppressed, Vegeta and Nappa and all the other fighters that didn't know how to suppress their Ki would be incapable of holding back. And yes, they could hold back.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Holding back=/=suppressed is your opinion. You say that like it's a fact when it wasn't stated.

If holding back wasn't different than being suppressed, Vegeta and Nappa and all the other fighters that didn't know how to suppress their Ki would be incapable of holding back. And yes, they could hold back.

Let me give you an example. During the Cell games, Goku tells Gohan to give Cell an "all out" Kamehameha wave. We know during this time that Gohan is not at full power and is still in SSJ2 state.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I can hold back. But I can't suppress. Anyone at any level can hold back, some even struggle with that, but holding back isn't any special ability. Suppressing is a whole different story. And there is a level you can hold back in certain levels of power. Freeza's higher forms are harder for him to control.

I doubt Ssj3 Goku can hold back enough to give Majin Vegeta and even fight.

[hleV]

Let me give you an example. During the Cell games, Goku tells Gohan to give Cell an "all out" Kamehameha wave. We know during this time that Gohan is not at full power and is still in SSJ2 state.

Gohan was at full power of the time. Whatever amount of power he can get through anger doesn't count in.

[Undertaker]

Holding back=/=suppressed is your opinion. You say that like it's a fact when it wasn't stated. Goku showed off and acted too cool against Pure boo in the beginning of his fight, what part of this aren't you understanding? Exactly, a full power KHH which means he wasn't full power against Pure boo in the first place. Nothing was said about him "recharging back to full power". He has been trying to get to full power later in the fight after he showed off and thought he could do better than him causing him to overestimate his own body.
Goku : When I fought Fat boo, I would have been able to beat him but wanted the young guys to manage something.
This tells us he was holding back power causing Piccolo to ask Goku if he could have won.
Hell, Gohan wasn't even using his full power against Cell until he wiped out SPC. Gohan was suppressed after getting damaged in the arm meaning he wasn't full power.
Gohan was holding back because he was afraid of the damage happening to the earth.

Holding back and being suppressed is a different thing. You can hold back and still be at full power like Raditz did vs Goku and Piccolo

Gohan was not suppressed. His FP at that time was 50% due to his injury. The other half was reached in the end due to his anger combined with his hidden powers. He was not suppressing himself,

He showed off because he thought he could of beaten him but underestimated his SSJ3 weakness. What does that have to do with him being at full power? A full power Kamehameha means an amplified and charged ki blast which can beat Pure Boo's regeneration. It has nothing to do with Goku fighting at full power or not. He wanted to do what Piccolo did vs Raditz

Goku said he would go all out meaning serious and after he lost the SSJ3 transformation, he says the problem in the living world is mantaining the SSJ3 and nothing about not be able to be at full power. In fact, if Goku can't control his SSJ3 so how can he control his power?

Again, he just says he could of won against Fat Boo but it means nothing about being suppressed. He could of won but didn't try to. He never put any effort or was serious. It's like me now wanting to hit a 5 years old kid who I can obviously beat but I can weaken my blows so he can also hurt me.

[rereboy]

Holding back=/=suppressed is your opinion. You say that like it's a fact when it wasn't stated.

If holding back wasn't different than being suppressed, Vegeta and Nappa and all the other fighters that didn't know how to suppress their Ki would be incapable of holding back. And yes, they could hold back.

Let me give you an example. During the Cell games, Goku tells Gohan to give Cell an "all out" Kamehameha wave. We know during this time that Gohan is not at full power and is still in SSJ2 state.

So? How does that invalidate what I said?

Holding back can be as simple as not punching as hard as possible, not kicking as hard, not firing a Ki blast that powerful, etc, etc. These things can be done by fighters who are suppressing their power and fighters who aren't suppressing their power. Ergo, its different or at least it can be different. Technically its true that if a fighter is suppressing his power he's actually holding back his full power, but the term "holding back" refers to a lot more than just suppressing Ki.

[Mjb1985]

Gohan was holding back against Cell. It's stated. He was afraid to destroy the Earth.

[Hitiro]

It may be possible to "master" the higher levels of SSJ. But the problem is will that even be a very big advantage. The first form has already been mastered by Goku and Gohan but the power consumption is still there, it is just not as heavy as it being un-mastered. What Goku and Gohan did in the RoSaT was to train their bodies to get used to the form and only use the optimal, or minimum, amount of power to keep the transformation up. It could be possible for them to do the same with the other forms but I see a few problems.

Firstly, while SSJ did drain their energy it wasn't something as substantial as the other forms. We have seen through the manga and anime that the transformation isn't that difficult to maintain for long periods of time even without it being mastered. So I feel that the optimisation of them reducing the power consumption isn't that large. It just adds up to being beneficial later on. If they were to try the same with SSJ2 or SSJ3 how do we even know they can reduce the power consumption of both forms that much? Maybe it will only be a minuscule amount like the difference between SSJ and a mastered SSJ form.

Secondly, as I said, SSJ wasn't a form that was difficult to maintain for long periods. Because of this it is much simpler to get used to the form because they could already maintain the form for a pretty substantial amount of time. SSJ2 we have no idea how long they can maintain it for but if its for quite a while then they could probably get used to the form. SSJ3 however.. That form lasts all of a couple of mins, how is anyone supposed to train the form if it doesn't last for that long? Maybe Goku could have done it when he was dead. But it feels like to me the negative effects didn't really apply when he was dead in otherworld as he was surprised by how short the form lasted when he was brought back to life.

Lastly, Goku says at one point the form is not something that should be used when you're alive. If he could make any significant improvement on managing the transformation I doubt he would have said this. It is highly possible Goku has already experimented with optimising the transformation like he did with SSJ. So he is probably close to having the form as mastered as he can.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku's comments on SSJ3 make it seem like the form is less than a year old to me. I don't see why any form can't be mastered though as all it is is getting use to the form and even SSJ3's massive drain could be adapted to given enough time.

[Draken]

Goku's comments on SSJ3 make it seem like the form is less than a year old to me. I don't see why any form can't be mastered though as all it is is getting use to the form and even SSJ3's massive drain could be adapted to given enough time.

How do you adapt to something when you're completely exhausted after using it for a few minutes? It took them months to master FPSSJ, and that already had minimal strain compared to SSJ3. Unless by enough time you meant hundreds of years.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku's comments on SSJ3 make it seem like the form is less than a year old to me. I don't see why any form can't be mastered though as all it is is getting use to the form and even SSJ3's massive drain could be adapted to given enough time.

How do you adapt to something when you're completely exhausted after using it for a few minutes? It took them months to master FPSSJ, and that already had minimal strain compared to SSJ3. Unless by enough time you meant hundreds of years.

In theory every time Goku goes into SSJ3 he should be able to last a couple more seconds longer. Now since Goku didn't use SSJ3 after fighting Kid Buu in canon unless you count BOG where he looks better in the form against Bills, Goku has never shown what his SSJ3 form is like.

In GT pulling out one's tail masters the form, so I don't see how putting a couple years into SSJ3 wouldn't master it. Goku also told Gohan keeping trying to stay in SSJ till it feels better, that means stay in it till you get tired and then when you can transform again for as long as you can.

[Draken]

Goku's comments on SSJ3 make it seem like the form is less than a year old to me. I don't see why any form can't be mastered though as all it is is getting use to the form and even SSJ3's massive drain could be adapted to given enough time.

How do you adapt to something when you're completely exhausted after using it for a few minutes? It took them months to master FPSSJ, and that already had minimal strain compared to SSJ3. Unless by enough time you meant hundreds of years.

In theory every time Goku goes into SSJ3 he should be able to last a couple more seconds longer. Now since Goku didn't use SSJ3 after fighting Kid Buu in canon unless you count BOG where he looks better in the form against Bills, Goku has never shown what his SSJ3 form is like.

In GT pulling out one's tail masters the form, so I don't see how putting a couple years into SSJ3 wouldn't master it. Goku also told Gohan keeping trying to stay in SSJ till it feels better, that means stay in it till you get tired and then when you can transform again for as long as you can.

Cause GT. So there.

And last I recall pulling out his tail didn't do anything for Goku.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku's comments on SSJ3 make it seem like the form is less than a year old to me. I don't see why any form can't be mastered though as all it is is getting use to the form and even SSJ3's massive drain could be adapted to given enough time.

How do you adapt to something when you're completely exhausted after using it for a few minutes? It took them months to master FPSSJ, and that already had minimal strain compared to SSJ3. Unless by enough time you meant hundreds of years.

In theory every time Goku goes into SSJ3 he should be able to last a couple more seconds longer. Now since Goku didn't use SSJ3 after fighting Kid Buu in canon unless you count BOG where he looks better in the form against Bills, Goku has never shown what his SSJ3 form is like.

In GT pulling out one's tail masters the form, so I don't see how putting a couple years into SSJ3 wouldn't master it. Goku also told Gohan keeping trying to stay in SSJ till it feels better, that means stay in it till you get tired and then when you can transform again for as long as you can.

Cause GT. So there.

And last I recall pulling out his tail didn't do anything for Goku.

When Goku had his tail pulled out his stamina in SSJ3 was restored.

[Nazi Cola]

Super Saiyan 2, maybe.

Super Saiyan 3, fuck no. Get that shit outta here. It's complete overkill. It'd be like Sonic trying to master his "Super" form.

[miguelnuva1]

Super Saiyan 2, maybe.

Super Saiyan 3, fuck no. Get that shit outta here. It's complete overkill. It'd be like Sonic trying to master his "Super" form.

Sonic Super form is mastered unless you mean needing to transform without the emeralds.

[Hitiro]

Sonic Super form is mastered unless you mean needing to transform without the emeralds.

Actually.. Sonic requires a constant supply of rings to maintain the form. If he hits 0 he loses the transformation. You can see in most of the more recent games. In Sonic Adventure 2 Battle him and Shadow take it in turns to fight against Biohazard because the other character is collecting rings to maintain the form while the other one is fighting.

[miguelnuva1]

Sonic Super form is mastered unless you mean needing to transform without the emeralds.

Actually.. Sonic requires a constant supply of rings to maintain the form. If he hits 0 he loses the transformation. You can see in most of the more recent games. In Sonic Adventure 2 Battle him and Shadow take it in turns to fight against Biohazard because the other character is collecting rings to maintain the form while the other one is fighting.

Archie Sonic I believe can use his form with no rings.