Vegito vs. Gogeta - A controversial debate

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Post by desirecampbell » Sat May 20, 2006 3:50 pm

Could I get a quote for the Elder Kaioshin? If he really said that the potara fusion was stronger than this throws another factor into the discussion. I'd really like to get as close to the original Japanese as possible for this - it's this kind of mis-translation that screws up a lot of stuff (like which Buu is strongest).

Now, what's this about "stronger than a SSj3"? SSj3 isn't a certain level, like the previous SSj levels it's just a stronger form of the warrior. SSj (didn't we have a discussion about whether he was SSj or SSj2?) Vegetto is stronger than SSj3 Goku - we know this. The fighting he does in his base form is "filler" and while that doesn't mean we completely disregard it, we should look at it with skepticism.
Whether Vegetto would have been able to push himself up to SSJ4 would be, in my opinion, rather easy
One doesn't "push themselves" to SSj4, it takes and excessive amount of Bruitis waves (Though, I'm less than confident in my GT info)

Also, I don't think the idea that Goku is weaker in GT holds much water. He used the fusion dance with Vegeta. So, if anything, Goku is stronger than he was in Z, as Vegeta would be training between Z and GT (and Goku would have been training himself with Uub).

It's hard to compare these characters because there's no point of reference. No standard we can base both characters off of. They were both much stronger than anyone else around.

It can't be assumed that Vegetto could go SSj3. Gotenks achieved that because Goten and Trunks trained heavily in their fused form to achieve that. We can assume Vegetto can go SSj2, as both Saiayns had achieved that level separately, but only Goku had reached SSj3 so it's unclear whether Vegetto would have that too.


I'm still leaning toward Gogeta - We know that each fusion was stronger than any other character in their timeframe, but the characters in GT were far stronger than they were in Z.

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Post by BrollysKin » Sat May 20, 2006 4:27 pm

If we assume that we had 2 base Gokus from DBGT and 2 base Vegetas from DBGT, and one pair fused using the earrings, and the other the dance. Since the earrings are a more complete fusion, my guess is that Vegetto would be the stronger of the two.

SSj4 aside, the evidence seems to point to Vegetto being the strongest.
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Post by desirecampbell » Sat May 20, 2006 5:13 pm

BrollysKin wrote:If we assume that we had 2 base Gokus from DBGT and 2 base Vegetas from DBGT, and one pair fused using the earrings, and the other the dance. Since the earrings are a more complete fusion, my guess is that Vegetto would be the stronger of the two.

SSj4 aside, the evidence seems to point to Vegetto being the strongest.
But the thing is we don't have any evidence.

We have the Elder Kaioshin 'hinting' at the potara fusion being stronger.
We know that SSj Vegetto was stronger than SSj3 Goku. (as seen in the Buu saga)
We know that SSj Gogeta is stronger than SSj3 Goku. (as seen in Movie 12)

We have no real information.

If the potara fusion is more powerful, we have no idea how much more powerful. So we have no way of comparing the two.

Disregarding that - there's no reason to think Buu-saga-Vegetto would be stronger than GT-Gogeta.
Throwing out any argument against Vegetto having SSj3, there's no reason to think he'd be stronger than SSj4 Gogeta, let alone a SSj4 Gogeta formed from a stronger pair of Saiyans.

With the lack of evidence to prove that either fusion is more powerful than the other, we should assume that each functions exactly the same. Thus, we must conclude that Gogeta is far stronger than Vegetto.

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Post by t0ffe3m4n » Sat May 20, 2006 5:25 pm

Vegito is mearly the stronger fusion, not the stronger warrior. Let's not get mixed up here... we are determining who would win in a fight.

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Post by BrollysKin » Sat May 20, 2006 5:56 pm

t0ffe3m4n wrote:Vegito is mearly the stronger fusion, not the stronger warrior. Let's not get mixed up here... we are determining who would win in a fight.
In that case, I agree that Gogeta would win if he were a SSj4, but I do think that the pottara earing fusion would have a more powerful base form.
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Post by Steven Perry » Sat May 20, 2006 7:18 pm

desirecampbell wrote: If the potara fusion is more powerful, we have no idea how much more powerful. So we have no way of comparing the two.
Now, why would the author of this article say something so specific? It has to be true! :D Somebody has to have the episode (I don't). Add that to the other factors... And Vegito is the strongest! He also kicked Buu's butt, even though he had dozens of fighters within him!

A SS4 is just the down- sized version of the Oozaru, right? The only thing that seems to have changed here is the mass and speed of the character. Then again, I've hardly watched GT. Do you think that Vegito could defeat an Oozaru? I'm thinking that Vegito has the power equivalent (or more) to SS4, but nobody had come up with the design yet...
desirecampbell wrote: It's hard to compare these characters because there's no point of reference. No standard we can base both characters off of. They were both much stronger than anyone else around.
Well, can anybody finds some quotes in GT referring to power-levels? I think I can remember one... But it's so faint... Goku says something like "you're way stronger than Kid Buu" to that guy who can turn into metal. General Rildo, I think.

Man, GT is so rubbish.
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Post by t0ffe3m4n » Sat May 20, 2006 8:16 pm

Yes, Chibi Goku made the comment that Rildo was stronger than Majin Buu. I believe during the Ii Shenron fight he also made the comment that he was the strongest warrior he'd ever fought against.

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Post by Kaboom » Sat May 20, 2006 9:52 pm

Steven Perry wrote:
Now, why would the author of this article say something so specific? It has to be true! :D Somebody has to have the episode (I don't). Add that to the other factors... And Vegito is the strongest! He also kicked Buu's butt, even though he had dozens of fighters within him!
Um... Wikipedia can't really be trusted for that kind of info, especially in regards to Dragonball.

But, I think I should revive the point that there's no "even-ing-out" of power needed for Potara fusion. Meaning Goku doesn't have to bring his power down to match Vegeta's meaning a Potara fusion of the two will have more base power going into it.
So assuming that the two pairs of "Fusees" are the same, this could definitely tip the scales in Vegetto's favor. Perhaps that was what Old Kaio was referring to.
Also, if we're talking GT-era PLs here, then if Goku and Vegeta can both reach SSj4, then so can Vegetto.

Just a few point to toss into the maelstrom of the discussion.
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Post by desirecampbell » Sun May 21, 2006 1:52 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:Um... Wikipedia can't really be trusted for that kind of info, especially in regards to Dragonball.
Yeah - I had to change the SSj5 entry 3 times in one week from "as seen in Dragonball AF". Sigh.
SSj Kaboom wrote: But, I think I should revive the point that there's no "even-ing-out" of power needed for Potara fusion. Meaning Goku doesn't have to bring his power down to match Vegeta's meaning a Potara fusion of the two will have more base power going into it.
So assuming that the two pairs of "Fusees" are the same, this could definitely tip the scales in Vegetto's favor. Perhaps that was what Old Kaio was referring to.
That's a quote I know I've seen - where the Elder Kaioshin said that the fusion between Goku and Vegeta would be the strongest due to their rivalry (though it's unclear exactly what he ment - whether their competing personalities would render a stronger fusion, or the fact that they are strong would render a strong fusion and that they're so strong because they are rivals...)
If that's the quote that everyone is baseing the idea that Potara fusion is stronger than dance-fusion, we indeed have a mistranslation issue (as I warned we might have).
SSj Kaboom wrote:Also, if we're talking GT-era PLs here, then if Goku and Vegeta can both reach SSj4, then so can Vegetto.
That's what I said first, but apparently the discussion is that Vegetto, ala the Buu saga, could defeat Gogeta, ala GT.

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Post by ItsAllGood » Sun May 21, 2006 10:02 am

Regarding the "Evening out of power levels" statement, Elder Kai did state in the Dub that becoming SSJ before the fusion was unnecessary, as this will shorten the resulting characters life.

Below is the conversation that took place with Elder Kai and Goku. Note this was taken from the English Dub, so you may want to compare this to the original.

"Hold it! Shouldn't i become a SSJ first? Yeah! Then this fusion will be at its maximum!

"No, that would be dangerous my boy. Once you initiate the fusion, you may never be able to power-down, and if i remember right about Saiyans, they can't stay in their powered up states forever. The strain on your body could shorten your life!"

"Really?"

"Yes, but you will find that once you fuse, the additional power won't be needed. If for some reason you need to go SSJ, you may do so after you fuse, but trust me, you wont need it"

Using this dialogue as evidence, it would seem that BASE level is the only real level Vegeta and Goku could theoretically fuse at without shortening their lives. But imagine the possibilities if they had fused at maximum! In regards to Gogeta Vs. Vegetto, could we consider this? :?

In regards to the theory that the Metamorese fusion is weaker than Potara, here is the conversation as stated in the English Dub.

"Are you sure people can be fused together just by using some earings?"

"Don't be difficult! I'm a Kai, of course I'm sure! And it's much more effective than that fusion dance you must have picked up from the metamorese!"

As for SSJ4, I still believe that it could be achieved naturally, as naturally as the original Oozaru. Among the requirements needed were for the Saiyan to have a tail and be exposed to Brutis waves. If Goku had naturally grown his tail back prior to facing off against Bebi Vegeta, and been exposed to actual moonlight, could you call that a natural transformation? :)

Could someone please compare these sections of dialogue to the original? It would be interesting to see what was gained/ lost in the translation!

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Post by veshira » Sun May 21, 2006 11:21 am

ItsAllGood wrote:"Don't be difficult! I'm a Kai, of course I'm sure! And it's much more effective than that fusion dance you must have picked up from the metamorese!"

Could someone please compare these sections of dialogue to the original? It would be interesting to see what was gained/ lost in the translation!
Well, even if that's exactly what the old Kaioshin said in the Japanese, he could just be talking about there being no time limit, and no error in the fusion if a dance was done incorrectly, or even the limitation of the two having to be the same size (since it could be argued Goku and Vegeta aren't close enough in height to actually perform the fusion dance and fuse, disregarding any non-canon evidence.)

Actually, forget the height thing. Rocketman's right. But all those other things are valid as far as my knowledge goes. :?
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Post by Rocketman » Sun May 21, 2006 1:39 pm

veshira wrote:(since it could be argued Goku and Vegeta aren't close enough in height to actually perform the fusion dance and fuse, disregarding any non-canon evidence.)
No it can't. Goku himself says he could've done the Fusion Dance with Vegeta if he wasn't dead. It's right before Mr. Popo gives him the idea to teach it to Goten and Trunks.

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Post by Akira » Mon May 22, 2006 1:41 am

I did not read through the whole thread, because it is just full of nonsense the further I got into it. Two people made points that seem to me to sum it up and solve the issue once and for all.

- You'd have to use identical copies of Goku and Vegeta from the same time period for it to really be a fair debate.

and

-Dance fusion require the power to match evenly for fusion to occur, whereas the earings do not.

You don't need to account for fusion length or anything else, these two points answer the debate.

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Post by Duo » Mon May 22, 2006 5:44 pm

This argument will endlessly loop nonsense unless it is changed to "Which fusion method is superior?" - even then, it will probably lead no where because it seems that, even if someone proves, with correctly translated quotes, that the Potara fusion yeilds a "stronger" warrior, at least one person will refuse to believe it.

And I have nothing to contribute to the actual topic due to the triviality of it all. Go me.

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Post by Sho™ » Thu May 25, 2006 9:43 am

Vegetto is the strongest. Otherwise, Mike would be known as GogetaEX. :P

I apologise for the lack of contribution to this subject... or should I even have to? I've a feeling I'd be required to apologise if I DID contribute something. Hmm.
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Post by Kaboom » Thu May 25, 2006 12:42 pm

Sho™ wrote:Vegetto is the strongest. Otherwise, Mike would be known as GogetaEX. :P
Or "VegerotEX," now.

I'm gonna call him that now, just to annoy him.
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Post by desirecampbell » Thu May 25, 2006 6:26 pm

Duo wrote:This argument will endlessly loop nonsense unless it is changed to "Which fusion method is superior?" - even then, it will probably lead no where because it seems that, even if someone proves, with correctly translated quotes, that the Potara fusion yeilds a "stronger" warrior, at least one person will refuse to believe it.

And I have nothing to contribute to the actual topic due to the triviality of it all. Go me.
I'd be very interested to see if I'm wrong here - I'm sure that Gogeta is stronger because I see no reason why the Potara fusion would be a "stronger" fusion.

I'd love to see any direct translation pertaining to the subject :D

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu May 25, 2006 11:40 pm

desirecampbell wrote:I see no reason why the Potara fusion would be a "stronger" fusion.
I'm pretty sure that's indeed what the elder Kaiôshin said in the manga (which I read in Japanese). And he said that when he was explaining the whole thing about the Potara, i.e. before they even knew that Gokû would end up merging with Vegeta, his rival.

I can't quote the exact line as I don't have the manga right here, so I looked for it on the web (it appears to be "kôka wa Fusion ijô": "the effects are greater than those of the Fusion"), and found this. Pretty amusing, if you understand Japanese: they're using equations to try and compare the effects of the Potara, the Fusion and Boo's absorptions. I must admit I gave up before the end, as I don't care that much for the whole "battle levels" thing...

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Post by Steven Perry » Fri May 26, 2006 8:50 am

I came up with something the other day, and it seems to me that a SS4 isn't much stronger than a SS3.
some crap I wrote:A SS4's power level depends on the Golden Oozaru, right? The Oozaru's power is multiplied by a certain amount, and depends on the form he was in before the transformation. Here's my question: Seeing as though Goku was a regular Saiyan before transforming, does that mean the remaining energy wasn't multiplied (because he didn't turn into a SS3)?
If we can find out by how much a Saiyan's energy is multiplied (when transforming into an Oozaru), we can get a rough idea on how strong a SS4 is. Remember, a SS4 is just the compact version of an Oozaru. I think it'd be helpful to have a look at Vegeta's transformation.

I bet that Gogeta's power comes to the same as/ less than Vegerot. :wink:
Olivier wrote:I can't quote the exact line as I don't have the manga right here, so I looked for it on the web (it appears to be "kôka wa Fusion ijô": "the effects are greater than those of the Fusion"), and found this. Pretty amusing, if you understand Japanese: they're using equations to try and compare the effects of the Potara, the Fusion and Boo's absorptions. I must admit I gave up before the end, as I don't care that much for the whole "battle levels" thing...
Let's test out the Google translator...
crazy Japanese website wrote:Doing at first glance, it seems that does not have the margin which it doubts '[bejitsuto] > from order of the strength, [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu]', funny fact was discovered.


Namely,


[bejitsuto] = Sato empty + [bejita]

[aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu] = [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice + demon human [buu]



Although is,


[bejitsuto] > [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu]

With this the story which how, with is said.

As for the present diary, the story regarding that.

The numerical formula which is quoted on (laughing), to tell the truth there is a place where calculation is not agreeable.

In other words, when it calculates normally, it becomes the calculation whose [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu] is stronger than [bejitsuto], it is, don't you think?.


Just a little it will try proving?

< Fancy & fanatic proof >

In [bejitsuto] and the [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu] *1

[bejitsuto] = Sato empty + [bejita] ............A

[aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu] = [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice + demon human [buu] ............B

In addition from hypothesis

Sato sky < [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice ............C


[bejita] < demon human [buu] ...............D

A, B, C, from D


Sato empty + [bejita] < [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice + demon human [buu]

In reason


[bejitsuto] < [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu]

From thing above,

Proposition '[bejitsuto] > [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu]' is the fake.

< Proof end >

...... Well, however, when we just would like to try displaying simply with numerical formula, don't you think?.

In other words, with sum total of [kiyara] which is united, although it is the expectation whose [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu] is stronger than [bejitsuto], really it has become opposite.

There is strange, that. It is strange, that. The [so] - it is the case that it is said.

Deducing from this strange fact, the hypothesis which is deduced is three below.

Hypothesis as for the union with 1 [potara], the power which exceeds the sum total of power of both before the uniting is created.

Tucking, when you say, something [potara] is enormous at random.


Hypothesis as for absorption union of 2 demon human [buu], it is not possible to utilize the power of the person who was absorbed completely.

Tucking, when you say, to tell the truth it absorbs demon human [buu] and the [yo] [bo] is.

Hypothesis the both of 3.1 and 2.

However it is the case that you do not understand well whether well here either one is correct. *2

Simply, in any case, absorption union of demon human [buu] compared to as for method of uniting [potara] being superior you are not wrong.

From this, I propose the formality below.

Official 1 optional characters x and y uniting with [potara] P (x, absorbing uniting y) and x y U {x (y)} When with displaying, P (x, y) >U {x (y)}

Changing just a little subject here, story of the fusion.

In regard to the union of [potara], with the above-mentioned consideration

P (x, y) >x+y

Becomes and does not know the stand handle how.

In other words, whether or not union with [potara], those which exceed the sum total of the power two before the uniting it is not understood.

But, power of the character after the fusion, exceeding the sum total of the power two of time before the fusion has become clear in regard to the fusion.

Biting shattering, when you say, it means that Sato heaven and [torankusu] the fighting compared to, becoming [gotenkusu], the fighting [tsu] are with two one to force.

This in presumption possibility is certain from the various scenes, but there is a scene where that has appeared most most directly.

That [gotenkusu] after being absorbed by demon human [buu], is instantaneous the fusion of [gotenkusu] is unraveled with internal of [buu].

The instant where the fusion of [gotenkusu] is unraveled, power of demon human [buu] became weak suddenly, this time attribute of the piccolo appeared strongly in the body.

Both Sato heaven [torankusu], still it is to internal of demon human [buu] in spite.

The fact that power of [gotenkusu] is stronger than sum total of power of the Sato heaven [torankusu] respective single unit, is meant from this fact.

When you display with formula,

[gotenkusu] > Sato heaven + [torankusu]

With with the notion that where you say the shank.

In other words, power of the character after the fusion, means to exceed the sum total of power of both of time before the fusion.

When being official, you display this,

When official 2 optional characters x and y the fusion doing F (x, y) with displaying, F (x, y) >x+y

With it becomes.

In addition it becomes repetition, but

U [[buu] {F (Sato heaven + [torankusu])}] >U {[buu] (Sato heaven + [torankusu])}

Namely, when when demon human [buu] absorbs [gotenkusu], demon human [buu] absorbs Sato heaven and [torankusu] compared to, it is strong reason.

Both, it is demon human [buu] and the Sato heaven and union of [torankusu] is in spite.

From this, the following hypothesis is led.

As for the union with the fusion, the power which exceeds the sum total of power of both before the uniting is created. But,


As for absorption union of hypothetical demon human [buu], new power is not created in about the absorption union with the fusion.

Or it does not create completely new power, or only the power which is less than the sum total of power of both it creates.

Well, here in that case because the amount wound it does not have meaning excessively, sparing.

Requires, absorption union of demon human [buu] from the fusion the [yo] [bo] to be, with it means saying.

From this, I propose the following formality.

Official 3 optional characters x and y the fusion doing F (x, absorbing uniting y) and x y U {x (y)} When with displaying, F (x, y) >U {x (y)}

Because it became long, it rearranges.

As for the fact which to here becomes clear, three below.

[potara] is more enormous than absorption union of demon human [buu]. (Formality 1)


The fusion is more enormous than absorption union of demon human [buu]. (Formality 3)

When the fusion it does, it becomes stronger than original [kiyara], (formality 2)

When so, it becomes like this, as for [potara] and the fusion either one it is enormous to become matter of concern, is? With it is the point which is said, don't you think?.

In regard to this, boundary king God of 15 generations ago which are taught concerning [potara], like below has left words.

Furthermore () as for effect of [potara] above fusion!


With as for the notion that where you say, as for [potara] it is more enormous than the fusion, that.

The [so] - by the fact that you say the shank.

When being official, you display this,


When official 4 optional characters x and y uniting with [potara] P (x, y) and x and y the fusion doing F (x, y) with displaying, P (x, y) >F (x, y)


In addition, from formality 2.4.

When the fusion is done, to become stronger than the original character, in addition because [potara] the effect is stronger than the fusion, even [potara] has been decided than fusion similar and the original character becomes stronger.

Therefore,


When official 5 optional characters x and y P (x, y) displaying uniting with [potara], P (x, y) >x+y


Consists.

So, the following theorem is led by the official 1~5 above.

Fusion theorem optional character x and y uniting with [potara] P (x, y) x and y the fusion doing F (x, y) x absorbing uniting y U {x (y)} When with displaying, P (x, y) >F (x, y) >U {x (y)} Consists. In addition simultaneously, P (x, y) >F (x, y) >x+y consists.

Well ending.

The [so] - being the case that it is said, however you saw for a long time, finally it is conclusion of the present diary.

To here as for the reader who is attached that however it became matter of concern which you say whether it has carried out.

Conclusion

[potara] is more enormous than the fusion, the fusion is more enormous than absorption of demon human [buu].

In addition, when you use and/or the fusion do [potara], the character original two compared to something at random it becomes strong.


From first to end to the person who is read.

Don't you think? the [ho] it is with it does not inhale, the [e].

You associating in order such it does and the [yo] [bo] is and to deduce conclusion, long.

Don't you think? well, when the [tsu] [te] which I did and apply something, designating [bejitsuto] as before, words of demon human [buu]

It came, it is not, coming!! Union some oak and [tsu] [te] - [tsu]!!!

To tell the truth unexpectedly, was the words which shoot the mark, you thought that it is, it is.



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Post by El_Diablo » Fri May 26, 2006 9:35 am

Heh, I guess the Japanese fans do the silly A > B "equations" just like we do.
Where's the beef?

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