How much stronger is Ultimate Gohan than SSJ3 Goku?

[RandomGuy96]

He certainly looked like he was trying- that's the whole point. He was having a hard time dodging Goten, and there's zero evidence that he just randomly chose to suppress himself and fake that he was trying for no reason. Which just backs up what the Daizenshuu said.

Gohan also said that Goten would surpass him if he didn't start training soon. Certainly not what he'd say of someone weaker than 18.

[ABED]

He certainly looked like he was trying- that's the whole point. He was having a hard time dodging Goten, and there's zero evidence that he just randomly chose to suppress himself and fake that he was trying for no reason. Which just backs up what the Daizenshuu said.

Gohan also said that Goten would surpass him if he didn't start training soon. Certainly not what he'd say of someone weaker than 18.

He's sparing with his brother, why would he be fighting full out? I'm not going by the Daizenshuu.

[RandomGuy96]

Why wouldn't he? It would be one thing if he was actually fighting his brother- he'd want to go easy on him. But he just invited Goten to attack him; there's no reason for him to be randomly suppressing himself and then acting like he's trying. And there's also no reason for him to be sweating if he's suppressed. And, again, it was never stated he was, so there's no reason to assume so.

The Daizenshuu trumps fan opinions, and it states Goten (likely post-ROSAT, but pre wouldn't contradict anything) = Gohan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So I guess that makes Kid Trunks stronger than Gohan?

[RandomGuy96]

So I guess that makes Kid Trunks stronger than Gohan?

Like I said, could be pre or post ROSAT. So maybe. SS Gohan, that is.

[ABED]

Why wouldn't he? It would be one thing if he was actually fighting his brother- he'd want to go easy on him. But he just invited Goten to attack him; there's no reason for him to be randomly suppressing himself and then acting like he's trying. And there's also no reason for him to be sweating if he's suppressed. And, again, it was never stated he was, so there's no reason to assume so.

The Daizenshuu trumps fan opinions, and it states Goten (likely post-ROSAT, but pre wouldn't contradict anything) = Gohan.

Why does the Daizenshuu trump fan opinions?

IT'S HIS BROTHER and they're sparring, of course he's holding back.

[RandomGuy96]

Why wouldn't he? It would be one thing if he was actually fighting his brother- he'd want to go easy on him. But he just invited Goten to attack him; there's no reason for him to be randomly suppressing himself and then acting like he's trying. And there's also no reason for him to be sweating if he's suppressed. And, again, it was never stated he was, so there's no reason to assume so.

The Daizenshuu trumps fan opinions, and it states Goten (likely post-ROSAT, but pre wouldn't contradict anything) = Gohan.

Why does the Daizenshuu trump fan opinions?

IT'S HIS BROTHER and they're sparring, of course he's holding back.

Because it's official and author approved.

So he randomly suppressed his speed and acted like he was trying, and also sweated for no reason?

[ABED]

Why wouldn't he? It would be one thing if he was actually fighting his brother- he'd want to go easy on him. But he just invited Goten to attack him; there's no reason for him to be randomly suppressing himself and then acting like he's trying. And there's also no reason for him to be sweating if he's suppressed. And, again, it was never stated he was, so there's no reason to assume so.

The Daizenshuu trumps fan opinions, and it states Goten (likely post-ROSAT, but pre wouldn't contradict anything) = Gohan.

Why does the Daizenshuu trump fan opinions?

IT'S HIS BROTHER and they're sparring, of course he's holding back.

Because it's official and author approved.

So he randomly suppressed his speed and acted like he was trying, and also sweated for no reason?

He was training for a tournament, of course he's holding back, plus he can turn SS2, but doesn't during their training. He's not going to go full out against his brother whom he loves.

Does Toriyama read and approve of every line? It's not like DB is always logical.

[RandomGuy96]

He was training for a tournament, of course he's holding back, plus he can turn SS2, but doesn't during their training. He's not going to go full out against his brother whom he loves.

Does Toriyama read and approve of every line? It's not like DB is always logical.

Again, if he were attacking, you may have a point. But he wasn't, he was dodging. So why would he 'hold back'? Unless you think he was pretending to be slower than he was, and somehow was faking sweating (is that even physically possible?), just to make his brother feel good... which nothing supports and his lines immediately afterwards (telling Goten that he's not as strong as him and thinking to himself that Goten will soon surpass him) contradict.

No, but official information still always takes precedence over any fan opinion.

[ABED]

He was training for a tournament, of course he's holding back, plus he can turn SS2, but doesn't during their training. He's not going to go full out against his brother whom he loves.

Does Toriyama read and approve of every line? It's not like DB is always logical.

Again, if he were attacking, you may have a point. But he wasn't, he was dodging. Unless you think he was pretending to be slower than he was, and somehow was faking sweating (is that even physically possible?), just to make his brother feel good... which nothing supports and his lines immediately afterwards (telling Goten that he's not as strong as him and thinking to himself that Goten will soon surpass him) contradict.

No, but official information still always takes precedence over any fan opinion.

Gohan was a little rusty and was getting back in the swing of things. I don't recall him thinking Goten will soon surpass him. I thought he said, "If I don't watch it, they'll surpass me." And he's right, if Gohan just studies, Goten will surpass him since he's out training all the time.

Toriyama's the only official source that matters to me.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan was a little rusty and was getting back in the swing of things. I don't recall him thinking Goten will soon surpass him. I thought he said, "If I don't watch it, they'll surpass me." And he's right, if Gohan just studies, Goten will surpass him since he's out training all the time.

Toriyama's the only official source that matters to me.

"Rustiness" doesn't account for his speed and reflexes apparently being not too far above Goten's. He wasn't holding back, that wasn't stated or implied anywhere. The way Gohan spoke of Goten, it's like he was decently close already. None of these scenes make sense if Goten is, for example, weaker than Semi-Cell.

Toriyama said that the staff did a great job with the Daizenshuu and that they were accurate.

[ABED]

Of course rust does account for it. Plus, Gohan didn't know how strong his brother was, he was taken by surprise, once he got back in the swing of things he was fine.

The way Gohan spoke of Goten, it's like he was decently close already.

You inferred that.

It's a training session.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Woah woah hold up RG96. You actually believe what the Daizenshuu says about Goten being Gohan's equal? I know the Daizenshuu are official material and all but when something is blatantly contradicted, you shouldn't just accept it because it's official. You can't expect books to be 100% accurate.

[RandomGuy96]

Woah woah hold up RG96. You actually believe what the Daizenshuu says about Goten being Gohan's equal? I know the Daizenshuu are official material and all but when something is blatantly contradicted, you shouldn't just accept it because it's official. You can't expect books to be 100% accurate.

It's not contradicted. I go with it referring to his post-ROSAT power, but I have no problem with it referring to his pre-ROSAT power either. And you can't just nitpick what you do and don't follow from those books then criticize others for not following those things you nitpicked.

It's one of those creative ways of integrating a somewhat cryptic Daiz line without contradicting things. Post-ROSAT Goten = pre Ultimate Gohan is like taking that Daiz statement of Goku < Broly to mean SS Broly > SS Goku, not LSS Broly > SS3 Goku, or taking the statement about Gotenks not surpassing Vegeta until after training to mean base Gotenks (pre) < SS2 Vegeta < base Gotenks (post), rather than SS Gotenks pre < SS2 Vegeta < SS Gotenks post.

[dbzfan7]

I have Goten rather close to Gohan now. Gohan's statement makes no sense if Goten was as far away as people put him. Gohan probably never even attacked his brother which is why I say there is a gap, but Gohan had a hard time dodging and blocking every attack by the skin of his teeth. If Gohan actually punched his brother he would have an easier time taking the pressure of him. I take the Daiz statement as post rosat.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I realize they are hybrid born saiyan children with higher potential to start with, but really, I must ask what kind of training could they have done to be any stronger than I suggest? Especially if Goten never even used a gravity chamber before, or ever been in the ROSAT before the Buu Saga....

The manga hints that Goten & Trunks have mastered Super Saiyan (they most likely did that accidentally), and it's also stated that they were sparring together. Sparring + mastering Super Saiyan gives incredibly huge gains, as we saw from Goku & Gohan.

I also decided to believe that Goten & Trunks are slightly below Gohan, because of Gohan's comment, which contradicts the Daizenshuu statement.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't have any problem with Goten's power being equal. He just can't use it nearly as effectively. Goten doesn't have half the fighting skills of even a rusty Gohan, and doesn't even have the ki control to fly. So, as I see it, the line is referring to the power he has, but he doesn't really know how to use it.

[Kaboom]

The odd "by virtue of being Goku's son" context of the Daizenshuu tidbit gives it a little bit of interpretive leeway, and I choose to take it as meaning that Goten's got the same amazing dormant power that Gohan does.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I choose to take it as meaning that Goten's got the same amazing dormant power that Gohan does.

But it directly says battle power. And shouldn't Goten have more dormant power than Gohan, since he belongs in the second, tailless generation of Saiyan Halflings? He also grows stronger faster than Gohan did.

[TobyS]

I think we all know how many fucks Toriyama gives about anything.

He's a polite man and has an okay business head/work ethic, ergo when he says "yeah I totes endorse the daiz" there is no reason to assume this is anything other than him being polite/ feeling guilty about making them go back and change or redact something that is wrong but that he doesn't give a shit about, delaying the release of the final product and hurting profitability.

Toriyama is not Alan Moore.

I will ignore the daiz if it defies logic.

The kids being insanely strong was played for laughs, Vegeta is more focused on the fact that Trunks is SS not that he is near his own strength, Trunks is a little stronger then Goten and Vegeta is not that much stronger than Gohan level for level (they only PROVE Gohans gotten weaker when he goes SS2 until then they aren't sure). Goku later states that Gohan never really lost power after all, he just needs to get mad like at the cell games and he would be equal or greater than he used to be.

Gohan's rustiness in terms of reflexes and just kinda fighting spirit and drive is very much downplayed when people compare him to Goten and his weakness compared to Goku/Vegeta later is very much overstated by about the same amount by the fandom IMO.

It looks like whoever wrote those guides just saw Goten nearly hit Gohan with a rock (semi gag scene) and and was like "clearly he is nearly as strong".

Wouldn't people have sensed the kids sparring with each other over the years if they were FPSSJ1 Cell games tier? Half of that from Korins lookout made everyone shit their pants.

It doesn't make sense for the boys to be anything other than fusion fodder.
18/Piccolo/Gohan/Vegeta only need to be surprised at their ability to go SS and their "power for their age" or their "untrained arena/crowd destroying powers" rather than them being obscenely powerful in general.

My theories can fit with the events of the manga and I doubt the guides ability to accurately display Toriyama's real opinions assuming he even bothered to have one.