Does anyone else dislike how Toriyama used Future Trunks

[ABED]

but as the hero he can't just be told what to do. There are few things more boring than a hero that's passive in his/her own story

While you're using passive the right way. It's the wrong time to use it. The way you use means that all heroes aren't heroes because at one point most of them was passive for a moment due to reasons. Also this was Gohan's FIRST TIME being a hero. The fact he needed a guide from his father showed how inexperience he was. Same with Aang and Roku. at first Roku gudied Aang but as the story goes on Aang doesn't use him as much. Had there been an Arc between Boo and Cell rather it been filler or apart of the manga I'm sure Gohan would have done MUCH better like Broly the second coming(Yes Goku came at the end but that was for Toei's sake). You're complaining that a 9 year boy who never EVER had to protect Earth should't need help. Which IMO is just wrong. Even Piccolo agrees.

I think there's plenty of drama in a guy that doesn't know if they can win but is willing to die trying. Gohan couldn't at least be that. He had to be told to tryin.

That's not drama well it is..but that's the same thing we've saw since the Saiyajin Arc. Freeza Arc and Saiyajin Arc showed it. We don't need a 3 in the role. What you think while your opinion is just a default hero story that's been over done LONG before DB came out. It;s old. Boring. Once again your reasons for your beef with Gohan should mean that too you lots of heroes aren't heroes.

But they were different each time. Gohan started off as a scared child but grows braver as the story goes along. Gohan was far more proactive in the Freeza arc, he wasn't the main hero but he was willing to pick a fight against Dodoria in a fit of rage. He was willing to face Freeza in spite of his fear. I'm starting to come around to the idea that the weight of being THE hero might get to him a little, but as a hero that's something he would overcome in order to defeat Cell. It's the lesson he learns to complete the hero's journey.

Granted it's filler, but I love Gohan's reason for turning SS, he feels like he's always failing his friends when they need him the most. It's not a default hero story, it's a classic and heroic story. Heroes shouldn't be passive, especially if it's their story.

Goku wasn't a guiding hand, he was basically doing everything except the physical action. Again, it's not that he needed help, I'm fine with Vegeta being the distraction to allow Gohan the moment he needs, but by that point in the story, Gohan should be at a place emotionally where he won't give up, even if he knows he's facing certain death.

[TheGmGoken]

I'm starting to come around to the idea that the weight of being THE hero might get to him a little, but as a hero that's something he would overcome in order to defeat Cell. It's the lesson he learns to complete the hero's journey.

Oh great caps. Now you're yelling at me. He over came that in Boo Arc. He wasn't scarred and still had the Earth in his hands.

Granted it's filler, but I love Gohan's reason for turning SS, he feels like he's always failing his friends when they need him the most. It's not a default hero story, it's a classic and heroic story. Heroes shouldn't be passive, especially if it's their story.

Few filler that I liked. Honestly that one isn't used much compared to the one you was trying to use eariler.

Goku wasn't a guiding hand, he was basically doing everything except the physical action. Again, it's not that he needed help, I'm fine with Vegeta being the distraction to allow Gohan the moment he needs, but by that point in the story, Gohan should be at a place emotionally where he won't give up, even if he knows he's facing certain death.

What is everything? There was only two things going one. Goku attacking and Goku's guiding. Explain more. At the point of the story Piccolo already explained what Gohan was feeling. Yes He was a SSJ at the time but now it applies to his SSJ2 form with no rage. Gohan head was messed . He lost HALF of his rage boast power which(Not to go In Universe) most likely made SPC a bit stronger. So re read/watch Piccolo's speech to Goku. He's a pacifist in this portion of the arc(Yes for the 15th time it's random) so don't expect a no quit persona.

[mAcChaos]

but as the hero he can't just be told what to do. There are few things more boring than a hero that's passive in his/her own story

While you're using passive the right way. It's the wrong time to use it. The way you use means that all heroes aren't heroes because at one point most of them was passive for a moment due to reasons. Also this was Gohan's FIRST TIME being a hero. The fact he needed a guide from his father showed how inexperience he was. Same with Aang and Roku. at first Roku gudied Aang but as the story goes on Aang doesn't use him as much. Had there been an Arc between Boo and Cell rather it been filler or apart of the manga I'm sure Gohan would have done MUCH better like Broly the second coming(Yes Goku came at the end but that was for Toei's sake). You're complaining that a 9 year boy who never EVER had to protect Earth should't need help. Which IMO is just wrong. Even Piccolo agrees.

I think there's plenty of drama in a guy that doesn't know if they can win but is willing to die trying. Gohan couldn't at least be that. He had to be told to tryin.

That's not drama well it is..but that's the same thing we've saw since the Saiyajin Arc. Freeza Arc and Saiyajin Arc showed it. We don't need a 3 in the role. What you think while your opinion is just a default hero story that's been over done LONG before DB came out. It;s old. Boring. Once again your reasons for your beef with Gohan should mean that too you lots of heroes aren't heroes.

But they were different each time. Gohan started off as a scared child but grows braver as the story goes along. Gohan was far more proactive in the Freeza arc, he wasn't the main hero but he was willing to pick a fight against Dodoria in a fit of rage. He was willing to face Freeza in spite of his fear. I'm starting to come around to the idea that the weight of being THE hero might get to him a little, but as a hero that's something he would overcome in order to defeat Cell. It's the lesson he learns to complete the hero's journey.

What you're missing is that what separates this situation from the other times Gohan got angry and intervened is that this time it was all HIS fault.

Granted it's filler, but I love Gohan's reason for turning SS, he feels like he's always failing his friends when they need him the most. It's not a default hero story, it's a classic and heroic story. Heroes shouldn't be passive, especially if it's their story.

Goku wasn't a guiding hand, he was basically doing everything except the physical action. Again, it's not that he needed help, I'm fine with Vegeta being the distraction to allow Gohan the moment he needs, but by that point in the story, Gohan should be at a place emotionally where he won't give up, even if he knows he's facing certain death.

Gohan eventually did give it his all though. He just needed Goku to motivate him again. He was demoralized. Who wouldn't be demoralized after they caused their father to die, got their arm broken, caused Trunks to die, and were outmatched? That would just be OOC and unrealistic.

The difference is that this time it was all HIS fault. That is what separates it from the other times Gohan got mad and fought.

Trunks gave up with much less against him when he lost to Cell.

[ABED]

Maybe I shoulda used italics, I wasn't yelling at you.

He's demoralized, so screw the world and not even try?

That would just be OOC and unrealistic.

I don't see how that's unrealistic. Not everyone would just lay down and die. So it's all his fault and the solution is to give up?

Trunks gave up with much less against him when he lost to Cell.

Yeah, and that's why Gohan should not give up, there's a lot more on the line. At least he knew Goku and Gohan were in the Room of Spirit and Time training.

[TheGmGoken]

Maybe I shoulda used italics, I wasn't yelling at you.

It was a Cm Punk reference.

He's demoralized, so screw the world and not even try?

Trust me he's not the first nor the last to do this. He just gave up and accepted death. Even though he could(He did) prevent it. Some things you just have to accept is going to happen. You get caught up in the moment and forget that you could prevent it. Let's not forget he's NINE and is the first time he's saving the world.

I don't see how that's unrealistic. Not everyone would just lay down and die. So it's all his fault and the solution is to give up?

Wow you see what you did there by saying "Not everyone". Not EVERYONE will just go out fighting. Gohan's in the crowd of just lay there and die. You're acting like indirectly killing your father isn't a big deal and not a mentally and emotionally wreck.

Yeah, and that's why Gohan should not give up, there's a lot more on the line. At least he knew Goku and Gohan were in the Room of Spirit and Time training.

Still gave up none of the less. The fact that more of the line and the fact of Gohan's persona during the arc led to MORE pressure, more self doubt, and more whining.

[mAcChaos]

I don't see how that's unrealistic. Not everyone would just lay down and die. So it's all his fault and the solution is to give up?

Not everyone is so clear minded, especially in such a chaotic and intense moment. "GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER"

[DBZAOTA482]

Trunks gave up with much less against him when he lost to Cell.

Trunks gave up because he was ashamed of how foolish he was compared to Goku and Vegeta were on how the grades worked not simply because he was outmatched. ("So that's it? Father was able to make this transformation but he didn't anyways. He knew something like this would happen. What a fool I've been.")

[Rocketman]

Who wouldn't be demoralized after they caused their father to die, got their arm broken, caused Trunks to die, and were outmatched? That would just be OOC and unrealistic.

Goku.

[some_weirdGuy]

Trunks beating Cell would push him well and truly into major gary-stu territory, so i'm glad Toriyama didn't do that. A canon-sue can be just as bad as a fanon one - and trunks already fits so many of the tropes and cliche's of suedome:X.


It's kinda a shame stuff like trunks killing frieza and Cold meant that didn't develop into anything more interesting, but it's pretty clear the only reason they were there in the first place was to showcase trunks' power and give him a dramatic entrance. Without him there would have been no mecha frieza or kold. I also kinda disagree that it would have been more interesting, as we just had a whole saga of frieza and waiting for goku to show up, having it again directly after would have been a bit of a drag.

[Jackal puFF]

I kind of hate how Trunks is a lot like Kyle Reese from Terminator.. Ugh. Toriyama totally ripped it off.

[ABED]

Not everyone is so clear minded, especially in such a chaotic and intense moment. "GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER"

Hudson wasn't the hero in Aliens, that was Ripley, who was incredibly scared, but overcame it to save Newt, thus making her the hero.

You get caught up in the moment and forget that you could prevent it. Let's not forget he's NINE and is the first time he's saving the world.

The kid is mature for his age, and his age had nothing to do with it, it's unbecoming of the hero to give up.

Not EVERYONE will just go out fighting. Gohan's in the crowd of just lay there and die. You're acting like indirectly killing your father isn't a big deal and not a mentally and emotionally wreck.

But Gohan isn't just anyone. It is a big deal but why compound that by letting everyone die without so much as a fight.

Toriyama totally ripped it off.

Minus the love story and being the father of the resistance.

[TheGmGoken]

but overcame it to save Newt, thus making her the hero.

Gohan could just not listen to Goku and not do the KAmehameha and punk out.

The kid is mature for his age, and his age had nothing to do with it, it's unbecoming of the hero to give up.

He's looks and act like the average anime-manga kid. ONce again using that logic then lots of heroes aren't heroes.

But Gohan isn't just anyone. It is a big deal but why compound that by letting everyone die without so much as a fight.

You can say the same thing to what you're saying about heroes going out fighting. Gohan is that type of guy, He's the scarred 9 year boy type. So yes he just is "anyone". He felt hopelessand was giving up. Many heroes have done that. So Gohan is no exception. You're comparing Gohan to Goku or try and make a similarity between the two or the other heroes like Goku. You can't do that. Compare him to the heroes who gave up and had to be talked out of it. Gohan ins't the type of guy who goes down swinging. In fact let fix that we all hope is lost the isn't the guy who goes down swinging.

[ABED]

ONce again using that logic then lots of heroes aren't heroes.

Probably true, but could you name a few.

So yes he just is "anyone".

Why? He's the hero.

Many heroes have done that.

Such as?

Gohan isn't a scared little boy, he's faced the greatest evil in the universe before. It's great that he did listen to his father, but the hero of the story shouldn't need to be told what to do and when. They are proactive and don't wait for things to just happen to them constantly.

Gohan ins't the type of guy who goes down swinging.

Then he's not fit to be the hero of the story.

[TheGmGoken]

Probably true, but could you name a few.

Yup. Been waiting for you to ask. Ayano, Simon, Rogue, Sakeo, Saya, Aang(Almost), and Yoko. Just to name a few. ALL are heroes. All gave them but as talked out of it. Seems familiar right? Gohan is in these classes of people. Was they about to give up like Gohan? You damn bet ya. Was they talked out of it and guided LIKE GOHAN. Yes they were. Did later become the HERO(Some already a hero) even though they was guide it? You damn right.

Why? He's the hero.

I was comparing him to other heroes who went though the same thing. Besides he's just as human as the other Earthlings. Yes he got all those powers and is a saiyan at half. But when it comes to emotions and pressure. He's human. Him being human doesn't change the fact that he's only human.

Such as?

Gohan isn't a scared little boy, he's faced the greatest evil in the universe before. It's great that he did listen to his father, but the hero of the story shouldn't need to be told what to do and when. They are proactive and don't wait for things to just happen to them constantly.

Already named them. Gohan is a scarred little boy. Piccolo confirmed it. Yes he faced the greatest evil. But has he ever had the weight of the world on his shoulders? NO. Not at all.

Saiyan Arc: He had Krillin, Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha , and Goku
Freeza: Vegeta, Krillin, Goku, and Piccolo
Cell Arc: NO ONE but himself because he's the only one who can make a differences. Of course he would be scarred. For the last time. NOT EVERYONE is the same default hero. Not everyone is that basic hero definition. Not everyone doesn't need someone to tell them how to do things. Just like how not everyone isn't the type of heroes I listed above. Not everyone is YOUR definition of a hero. Just like how not everyone is my definition. However Gohan is indeed the type of hero who needs a guide(NOT my definition) at first. Just like how Simon isn't Kamina style of hero at first, Gohan isn't the Goku type at first. Notice how when he fought Gotenks he didn't have the power but still tried.

Then he's not fit to be the hero of the story.

Akira Toriyama said the same thing. Hence why he's not. I'm saying that for his first time he did good. Yes he used a guide but A LOT OF HEROES HAVE A GUIDE. So I guess that means they're not real heroes then.

[dbzfan7]

I think Adult Gohan could have worked as the hero (I also don't know at what point Toriyama decided to go back to Goku).

[ABED]

Ayano, Simon, Rogue, Sakeo, Saya, Aang(Almost), and Yoko.

Who? I've never heard of any of them.

Gohan isn't a wimpering mess. I'm sure he has fear but it's not nearly the extent you are making it out to be.

Piccolo wasn't there the entire time during the fight against Freeza, and Gohan was stronger than Kuririn.
Goku wasn't there during the fight against the Saiyans the whole time either.
Just because other were there doesn't mean you can take away his bravery. He could've died at any moment regardless of who was there to help him, but he still fought.

Piccolo didn't confirm anything. Why is everyone seemingly so quick to accept his statement as proof of what Gohan was thinking?

NOT EVERYONE is the same default hero.

Heroes can be very different but we aren't just talking about a hero like Kuririn or Muten Roshi, we're talking the main hero. The big hero should be proactive. There are other heroes besides the Goku type, I get that, but not quitting doesn't automatically make him a Goku type hero.

Yes he used a guide but A LOT OF HEROES HAVE A GUIDE. So I guess that means they're not real heroes then.

Did I say that? Guides are fine, but that was not my beef with Gohan, if you paid attention, you'd understand that. Goku wasn't just a guide, he had to tell him what to do and when.

THis is no longer interesting, agree to disagree.

[TheGmGoken]

I think Adult Gohan could have worked as the hero (I also don't know at what point Toriyama decided to go back to Goku).

I always thought it was around Mystic Gohan due to what Goku said when he went to other world. Since around that time Goku got his life back.

Who? I've never heard of any of them.

Never heard of them? AANG from Avatar! You never seen Avatar....or heard of it. *Sigh* watches these series. Or at least google some moments from the series.

Kaze No Stigma
Gurren Lagann
X men(Comic Book)
Highschool of the Dead

Gohan isn't a wimpering mess. I'm sure he has fear but it's not nearly the extent you are making it out to be.

I'm going by PICCOLO statement. Gohan was acting the same way as he when he was SSJ. Since I'm going by Piccolo statement I'm not even exaggerating. Mostly repeating Piccolo.

Piccolo wasn't there the entire time during the fight against Freeza, and Gohan was stronger than Kuririn.

Gohan respected Krillin and most likely knew Krillin could do more than himself. Gohan knew Piccolo was coming no? Same with Goku.

Just because other were there doesn't mean you can take away his bravery. He could've died at any moment regardless of who was there to help him, but he still fought

He had people to BACK HIM UP. That's like saying someone should had the same amount of confidence of 50 vs 100 as they would as 1 vs 100.

Heroes can be very different but we aren't just talking about a hero like Kuririn or Muten Roshi, we're talking the main hero. The big hero should be proactive. There are other heroes besides the Goku type, I get that, but not quitting doesn't automatically make him a Goku type hero.

The main hero? Watch more anime-animation and read more comics/manga. Then say that to me. Gohan is not the first nor is the last to be the type to need a guide and give up. What the big hero should be is what the AUTHOR wants him to be. Not what you want or what I want. It's what the author feels best. Many authors had made their characters act similar to Gohan in similar issues.

Did I say that? Guides are fine, but that was not my beef with Gohan, if you paid attention, you'd understand that. Goku wasn't just a guide, he had to tell him what to do and when.

Yes you did say that. If I paid attention? I quoted every thing YOU"VE SAID. Yes Goku was a guide. Do you know guides have told the heroes exactly what to do right? Seriously dude. Watch more anime or read more. Guides get involve more than you think. It's migrant to say that guides don't tell the heroes what to do.

THis is no longer interesting, agree to disagree.

I would if you wasn't so rude towards the end.

[ABED]

I would if you wasn't so rude towards the end.

What did you find rude?

I've heard of Rogue, but she's not THE hero, and I'm not a hardcore fan who's seen or read a lot of X-Men books.

I didn't argue that a number of artists haven't written their heroes to do what Gohan did, I'm arguing that it's unbecomming of the hero of a story.

[TheGmGoken]

I would if you wasn't so rude towards the end.
What did you find rude?

if you paid attention, you'd understand that.

Considering that I C/P pretty much every detail you wrote and replied to them separately shows I paid attention more so than most post on this site. The whole "If you paid attention" seems to be just a phrase people say in points. So most likely you didn't really mean it.

[ABED]

I would if you wasn't so rude towards the end.
What did you find rude?

if you paid attention, you'd understand that.

Considering that I C/P pretty much every detail you wrote and replied to them separately shows I paid attention more so than most post on this site. The whole "If you paid attention" seems to be just a phrase people say in points. So most likely you didn't really mean it.

Then you didn't understand my point regardless of me explaining. I didn't say heroes can't have guides. Luke needed Obi Wan and Yoda but he was still proactive in the story.