The whole "Mystic" stuff somehow makes no sense to me?

[goku the krump dancer]

Basically what Kaboom and hleV said.

This topic has been brought quite a lot lately, I think if it comes up again anytime soon someone should refer the user back to one of these discussions.

[mAcChaos]

I always thought it was his max lifetime potential forever, but you could say it released the potential he had at the time, ie the power he'd have if he had been training after Cell. But if he did that nobody would say he still couldn't get stronger.

[Son_Gohan]

The Elder Kaioshin's ability was precisely set apart from all others before it when Goku initially downplays it as some common ability. If it were to simply bring them above their "current limits" then that really doesn't make it anything special to what had already been done prior, and contradicts the whole point of it being made out as a distinct ability. The ritual is supposed to bring a person past the natural limit that they could ever achieve, they should no longer be able to get any stronger on their own. The fact that the very means of progressively becoming stronger--Super Saiyan transformations--had been abolished as a result surely exemplifies it. Majin Buu's statements further allude to this after Gohan is healed by Dende, where his power is said to not have changed at all, indicating the loss of the Saiyan's near-death increase as well.

[TheGmGoken]

Because it would be pointless. No one would even come close to Gohan and they all know.

This and ALL of Gohan hidden powers was awaken. All of his rage boost he had and all of the badass moments unleashed. Making him the best fighter. NO ONE can beat him. Unless they're Above Gods(Vegetto and Bisru. I don't count SSG) or plot hax(Not In universe though). Gohan is just unbeatable IMO now. Jus Mystic brings out everything that we've saw from him. Can he get stronger? Yes. But if he does he would be to strong and only plot hax can fix that.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The Elder Kaioshin's ability was precisely set apart from all others before it when Goku initially downplays it as some common ability. If it were to simply bring them above their "current limits" then that really doesn't make it anything special to what had already been done prior, and contradicts the whole point of it being made out as a distinct ability. The ritual is supposed to bring a person past the natural limit that they could ever achieve, they should no longer be able to get any stronger on their own. The fact that the very means of progressively becoming stronger--Super Saiyan transformations--had been abolished as a result surely exemplifies it. Majin Buu's statements further allude to this after Gohan is healed by Dende, where his power is said to not have changed at all, indicating the loss of the Saiyan's near-death increase as well.

Elder Kai's ability DID differ from all other previous attempts at drawing energy WITHOUT this whole "end limit" nonsense. It took everything Gohan had within him and then some. It eliminated the hindrance of transformation while at the same time making Gohan more powerful than his SSJ3 self. With an end limit, the entire philosophy of DBZ is mute. That being, breaking any and all limits.

[Axiom]

Considering what Beers said about Goku, and how the Manga came to a close, it's pretty obvious Gohan was strong for the Buu Saga, but lost relevance as soon as SSJ3 Goku appeared and in BOG Goku, not that shit character Gohan was looked upon to be the savior. By the end of Z, Goku claimed he waited 10 years to find a powerful enough opponent for him to fight.

Gohan's powerup made him power, just not more powerful than Goku, and not more powerful than Vegeta COULD be.

[TheGmGoken]

it's pretty obvious Gohan was strong for the Buu Saga, but lost relevance as soon as SSJ3 Goku appeared

Um...SSj3 came before Mystic.......

[Axiom]

it's pretty obvious Gohan was strong for the Buu Saga, but lost relevance as soon as SSJ3 Goku appeared

Um...SSj3 came before Mystic.......

Once Goku was brought back to life, that's pretty much the end of Gohan in all of the Dragonball franchise. Yo Son Goku, One Piece crossover, BOG, end of Z, GT. Gohan is just a filler character like Krillin meant to be slightly stronger cannon fodder.

[TheGmGoken]

it's pretty obvious Gohan was strong for the Buu Saga, but lost relevance as soon as SSJ3 Goku appeared

Um...SSj3 came before Mystic.......

Once Goku was brought back to life, that's pretty much the end of Gohan in all of the Dragonball franchise. Yo Son Goku, One Piece crossover, BOG, end of Z, GT. Gohan is just a filler character like Krillin meant to be slightly stronger cannon fodder.

Oh nevermind thought you meant SSJ3 came before Mystic

[Axiom]

Nah, I know Goku came first to be the measuring stick for all others to come after him.

[Son_Gohan]

Elder Kai's ability DID differ from all other previous attempts at drawing energy WITHOUT this whole "end limit" nonsense. It took everything Gohan had within him and then some. It eliminated the hindrance of transformation while at the same time making Gohan more powerful than his SSJ3 self. With an end limit, the entire philosophy of DBZ is mute. That being, breaking any and all limits.

Having Gohan's dependence on transformation negated was a by-product not a special feature of the ability, since not every individual is endowed with transforming and the Kaioshin clearly stated that his power specifically affects something that everyone has. If it didn't establish an absolute limit then it's no different from the same idea shown many times in the past, when it is explicitly emphasized to be of its own kind.

I disagree that is the entire philosophy of DragonBall. I came to the opposite conclusion after reading the story; so it's just subjective clamor. It's also very ironic because from Toriyama's interviews throughout the years he consistently expressed the fact there was a limit to how much stronger they could become:

Incidentally, what led you to have Goku become a Super Saiyan, or the villains to level up?

I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.

TORI: Dragon Ball was a serious pain. I was always wondering "The character can't possibly get any stronger, do I have to continue this?"

The key words this time, “God of Destruction Birus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

So maybe you and others could stop spouting it as the "entire philosophy" of DragonBall, and instead designate it with "I believe..." or "In my opinion...", since it evidently couldn't be further from fact.

[goku the krump dancer]

@Son Gohan

All that would leave someone to believe that "Yes the Z fighters have reached there upper most limit and could achieve nothing further." But one of my problem is that if the characters can't ever get any stronger whats the point in leaving doors open for the story to continue? The characters get stronger almost every time a new foe appears?

Also Toriyama himself also said that he doesn't mind when other people tamper with his work. So just because he couldn't come with a way to make Goku or whomever stronger then there's always a possibility that a Toei writer/producer could.

[TheGmGoken]

come with a way to make Goku or whomever stronger then there's always a possibility that a Toei writer/producer could.

Dragonball Grand Tour

[TheMightyOzaru]

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get. Toriyama had trouble coming up with ways for them to surpass their current limits, yes, but that doesn't prove an end limit of any kind. The philosophy of DBZ is to overcome any and all limits. That's not an opinion, that's how it is. Just because the author stopped writing, doesn't mean his characters didn't continue to grow. SSJ3 was supposedly as strong as Goku could get yet we have SSJ4 and SSJ God.

[TheGmGoken]

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get. Toriyama had trouble coming up with ways for them to surpass their current limits, yes, but that doesn't prove an end limit of any kind. The philosophy of DBZ is to overcome any and all limits. Just because the author stopped writing, doesn't mean his characters didn't continue to grow. SSJ3 was supposedly as strong as Goku could get yet we have SSJ4 and SSJ God.

Aren't one of those in a way Goku didn't "Get" but obtain.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get. Toriyama had trouble coming up with ways for them to surpass their current limits, yes, but that doesn't prove an end limit of any kind. The philosophy of DBZ is to overcome any and all limits. Just because the author stopped writing, doesn't mean his characters didn't continue to grow. SSJ3 was supposedly as strong as Goku could get yet we have SSJ4 and SSJ God.

Aren't one of those in a way Goku didn't "Get" but obtain.

That depends on how you view the end of the film. Goku did use his own skill to absorb the power of SSJ God into his being. The question is, did he keep it?

[TheGmGoken]

That depends on how you view the end of the film. Goku did use his own skill to absorb the power of SSJ God into his being. The question is, did he keep it?

He would't have gotten it in the first place without that ritual.

[dbzfan7]

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get. Toriyama had trouble coming up with ways for them to surpass their current limits, yes, but that doesn't prove an end limit of any kind. The philosophy of DBZ is to overcome any and all limits. Just because the author stopped writing, doesn't mean his characters didn't continue to grow. SSJ3 was supposedly as strong as Goku could get yet we have SSJ4 and SSJ God.

Aren't one of those in a way Goku didn't "Get" but obtain.

That depends on how you view the end of the film. Goku did use his own skill to absorb the power of SSJ God into his being. The question is, did he keep it?

If he kept it then why would he bother with Oob. Nobody would be a challenge for him except for Birus or Whis. Also Goten and Trunks pull a Gohan and don't do any training so they don't get stronger. I think the statement is more of gains are just getting a lot smaller then what the used to be(excluding transformations).

[TheMightyOzaru]

If he kept it then why would he bother with Oob. Nobody would be a challenge for him except for Birus or Whis. Also Goten and Trunks pull a Gohan and don't do any training so they don't get stronger. I think the statement is more of gains are just getting a lot smaller then what the used to be(excluding transformations).

What, you think Goku's immortal now? Earth needs a protector when Goku's gone since Gohan and the others certainly aren't gonna do it. Goku keeping the power up at the end doesn't mess with anything the ending set up. Also:

who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

No... Toriyama seems to think Goten and Trunks CAN'T get any stronger according to this.

That depends on how you view the end of the film. Goku did use his own skill to absorb the power of SSJ God into his being. The question is, did he keep it?

He would't have gotten it in the first place without that ritual.

Ok... that doesn't change the fact that he got stronger, assuming he kept it.

[TheGmGoken]

What, you think Goku's immortal now? Earth needs a protector when Goku's gone since Gohan and the others certainly aren't gonna do it. Goku keeping the power up at the end doesn't mess with anything the ending set up. Also:

NOT disagreeing with you. But doesn't he really still have 1 day left on Earth since he died an came back. So...would't that mean he gets a new day back with his new dead body? So he can come back 24 times just to kill Earth's threat. 30 minutes of talking about the issue. And 30 minutes of just kicking ass.