The whole "Mystic" stuff somehow makes no sense to me?

[dbzfan7]

If he kept it then why would he bother with Oob. Nobody would be a challenge for him except for Birus or Whis. Also Goten and Trunks pull a Gohan and don't do any training so they don't get stronger. I think the statement is more of gains are just getting a lot smaller then what the used to be(excluding transformations).

What, you think Goku's immortal now? Earth needs a protector when Goku's gone since Gohan and the others certainly aren't gonna do it. Goku keeping the power up at the end doesn't mess with anything the ending set up. Also:

who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

No... Toriyama seems to think Goten and Trunks CAN'T get any stronger according to this.

But they don't get stronger. This is stated at the TB. Vegeta even says "Kakarot I know you too well this isn't about protecting the earth." As in this has nothing to do with protecting earth, he just wanted an opponent. Oob has Kid Boo level potential.

[TheMightyOzaru]

What, you think Goku's immortal now? Earth needs a protector when Goku's gone since Gohan and the others certainly aren't gonna do it. Goku keeping the power up at the end doesn't mess with anything the ending set up. Also:

NOT disagreeing with you. But doesn't he really still have 1 day left on Earth since he died an came back. So...would't that mean he gets a new day back with his new dead body? So he can come back 24 times just to kill Earth's threat. 30 minutes of talking about the issue. And 30 minutes of just kicking ass.

(A) why would Goku do that? We know that he'd prefer it if he didn't have to step in and hold everyone's hand (B) I believe it's a one time thing only. You can't abuse your 24 hours in intervals.

[TheGmGoken]

(A) why would Goku do that? We know that he'd prefer it if he didn't have to step in and hold everyone's hand (B) I believe it's a one time thing only. You can't abuse your 24 hours in intervals.

Boo Arc Goku would't do it. He would let the world die then will step in because someone brought him back to life(A).

(B). Hey. If Goku can abuse Zenkai. He can abuse anything xD.

[TheMightyOzaru]

If he kept it then why would he bother with Oob. Nobody would be a challenge for him except for Birus or Whis. Also Goten and Trunks pull a Gohan and don't do any training so they don't get stronger. I think the statement is more of gains are just getting a lot smaller then what the used to be(excluding transformations).

What, you think Goku's immortal now? Earth needs a protector when Goku's gone since Gohan and the others certainly aren't gonna do it. Goku keeping the power up at the end doesn't mess with anything the ending set up. Also:

who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

No... Toriyama seems to think Goten and Trunks CAN'T get any stronger according to this.

But they don't get stronger. This is stated at the TB. Vegeta even says "Kakarot I know you too well this isn't about protecting the earth." As in this has nothing to do with protecting earth, he just wanted an opponent. Oob has Kid Boo level potential.

You don't understand english very well if you think Toriyama's statement can be interpreted the way you're trying to interpret it. It's very clear that this statement implies they can't possibly get stronger. It's not they don't try, it's that they can't. Goku can still increase his base power in a fight with Uub.

(A) why would Goku do that? We know that he'd prefer it if he didn't have to step in and hold everyone's hand (B) I believe it's a one time thing only. You can't abuse your 24 hours in intervals.

(B). Hey. If Goku can abuse Zenkai. He can abuse anything xD.

No... no he can't.

[TheGmGoken]

No... no he can't.

Someone can;t take a joke. But seriously at this point. Goku can do anything. If he wanted to. He could grow wings.

[dbzfan7]

You don't understand english very well if you think Toriyama's statement can be interpreted the way you're trying to interpret it. It's very clear that this statement implies they can't possibly get stronger. It's not they don't try, it's that they can't. Goku can still increase his base power in a fight with Uub.

I'll ask you not to insult my english thank you very much. Statements can have several interpretations. I find it hard to believe anyone can forever get stronger once the age factor kicks in and when Goku's gains have become so slim when not counting transformations. I take the nothing higher quote mainly for Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan as they practically plateaued.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You don't understand english very well if you think Toriyama's statement can be interpreted the way you're trying to interpret it. It's very clear that this statement implies they can't possibly get stronger. It's not they don't try, it's that they can't. Goku can still increase his base power in a fight with Uub.

I'll ask you not to insult my english thank you very much. Statements can have several interpretations. I find it hard to believe anyone can forever get stronger once the age factor kicks in and when Goku's gains have become so slim when not counting transformations. I take the nothing higher quote mainly for Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan as they practically plateaued.

I'm not insulting your english, I'm stating a fact. Toriyama clearly said, these characters couldn't get any stronger even if they wanted to. No one can continuously grow if we factor mortality, but disregarding that, they can grow forever.

[dbzfan7]

You don't understand english very well if you think Toriyama's statement can be interpreted the way you're trying to interpret it. It's very clear that this statement implies they can't possibly get stronger. It's not they don't try, it's that they can't. Goku can still increase his base power in a fight with Uub.

I'll ask you not to insult my english thank you very much. Statements can have several interpretations. I find it hard to believe anyone can forever get stronger once the age factor kicks in and when Goku's gains have become so slim when not counting transformations. I take the nothing higher quote mainly for Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan as they practically plateaued.

I'm not insulting your english, I'm stating a fact. Toriyama clearly said, these characters couldn't get any stronger even if they wanted to. No one can continuously grow if we factor mortality, but disregarding that, they can grow forever.

You did when you insulted my interpretation. They can't grow forever. Toriyama picked this time because everyone was pretty much at their peak strength. Toriyama also used a near perfect strength as a description as well. At this point everyone's gains were getting pretty small and training boosts were drying up.

[TheGmGoken]

these characters couldn't get any stronger even if they wanted to.

I only disagree with that for Goten and Trunks. They were only 7 and 8. SO they're basically screwed for life at such a young age.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get.

Obviously no. Goten & Trunks are still too young, and haven't even trained hard like the others. As for the others though, it is proven that there is a limit in their growth:

Kame-sennin: Stayed permanently behind Goku & co. after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai (though his age could be a factor to it).
Chaozu: Stayed permanently far behind Tenshinhan, Yamcha, etc after Freeza arc.
Tenshinhan & Yamcha: Stayed permanently behind Kuririn after Freeza arc.
Kuririn: Stayed permanently behind the base Saiyans after Freeza arc.
Piccolo: Stayed permanently behind the Super Saiyans after RoSaT.
Goku & Vegeta: After 7 years of extremely hard training, they didn't even get 2 times stronger.
Gohan: Had all of his dormant powers drawn out far, far, faaa~ar beyond their limits.

But then again, Toriyama also said that there is no limit in increasing your ki. So, this means that they can increase their power once they reach their limits, but very slowly, as we saw with Goku (28th TB base Goku doesn't sound to be 2 times stronger than Cell Games base Goku, which is 17 years of very hard training).

All that would leave someone to believe that "Yes the Z fighters have reached there upper most limit and could achieve nothing further." But one of my problem is that if the characters can't ever get any stronger whats the point in leaving doors open for the story to continue? The characters get stronger almost every time a new foe appears?

The getting stronger through training stopped being the main goal ever since Super Saiyan was introduced. In Cell arc, the Saiyans got stronger by going beyond and/or mastering Super Saiyan, and Piccolo by merging with Kami & training even more after that. In Boo arc, the Saiyans got stronger by going again beyond Super Saiyan (Goku, Vegeta, Gotenks), fusion (Goten & Trunks, Goku & Vegeta), and dormant power increases (Vegeta & Gohan). In BoG, Goku got stronger through Super Saiyan God. In GT, Goku & Vegeta got stronger through Super Saiyan 4 & Fusion, and Oob by merging with Mr. Boo.

[hleV]

Goku & Vegeta not getting twice stronger in 7 years is subjective and depends on how much strength you think Gohan gotten from anger on top of his SS2 against Cell, which is also subjective.

[Son_Gohan]

All that would leave someone to believe that "Yes the Z fighters have reached there upper most limit and could achieve nothing further." But one of my problem is that if the characters can't ever get any stronger whats the point in leaving doors open for the story to continue? The characters get stronger almost every time a new foe appears?

Also Toriyama himself also said that he doesn't mind when other people tamper with his work. So just because he couldn't come with a way to make Goku or whomever stronger then there's always a possibility that a Toei writer/producer could.

It's not that the characters can't ever get any stronger; it's that there's a limit to how strong they can become naturally. Once they've dried up their well of potential, training and near-death increases would offer no gain; the Ki now has to come from external sources.

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get. Toriyama had trouble coming up with ways for them to surpass their current limits, yes, but that doesn't prove an end limit of any kind. The philosophy of DBZ is to overcome any and all limits. That's not an opinion, that's how it is. Just because the author stopped writing, doesn't mean his characters didn't continue to grow. SSJ3 was supposedly as strong as Goku could get yet we have SSJ4 and SSJ God.

Does it mention Goten and Trunks specifically? There's more indication in his words that there is an absolute limit, show me the interview where he states the opposite because your own foundation of proof seems flimsy. It is an opinion, just because someone has the drive and keeps aiming to surpass their limits doesn't mean they can actually succeed. Vegeta is exemplary of that. That is not grounds for belief of them having unlimited strength.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku & Vegeta not getting twice stronger in 7 years is subjective and depends on how much strength you think Gohan gotten from anger on top of his SS2 against Cell, which is also subjective.

Cell Games SS Goku was less than 2 times weaker than Cell Games SS Gohan, and Boo arc SS Goku was less than 2 times stronger than Boo arc SS Gohan. Boo arc SS Gohan is equal or weaker than Cell Games Gohan. SS Goku is 2 times weaker than SS2 Goku, who is stronger than Raged SS2 Gohan (but not by far), who is stronger than SS2 Gohan, who is 2 times stronger than SS Gohan.
As for Vegeta, he said that his difference in power with Goku didn't change.

Which means that Raged SS2 Gohan is less than twice stronger than SS2 Gohan, and Goku & Vegeta got less than twice stronger after 2 years.

[goku the krump dancer]

come with a way to make Goku or whomever stronger then there's always a possibility that a Toei writer/producer could.

Dragonball Grand Tour

The same Grand Tour that Toriyama approves of and accepts it as a nice little side story? Yeah what about it? They found a way to make Goku stronger by introducing SSJ4 which for all you people say stuff like "Oh, after the Boo arc he isn't going to be seeing any huge boost from training" requires a Saiyan to have his tail to achieve the transformation above anything else.

[Toriyama-sama]

I don't know about anyone else's POV, but there's no such thing as an absolute maximum in the Dragon Ball I've been watching and reading for ten years. Whenever somebody thinks they've maxed out, they're always wrong, and they always find some way to get stronger.

So I see Gohan's power unlock from the Elder Kaioshin as no fundamentally different than the one he got from the Grand Elder on Namek. Someone's dormant or "potential" power is a constantly growing thing, and the Kaioshin just brought out all the dormant power Gohan had at that point, and then some extra. This boosted Gohan up to a level considerably stronger than Goku at Super Saiyan 3. But it's not some ridiculously, unfathomably high point thousands of times stronger than Goku or anything, and with ten years or so of Goku training hard while Gohan characteristically does diddly squat, Goku could surpass Gohan again. Likewise, as Gohan's dormant power begins to grow again, he could become stronger by training too.

My thoughts exactly

[TheMightyOzaru]

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get. Toriyama had trouble coming up with ways for them to surpass their current limits, yes, but that doesn't prove an end limit of any kind. The philosophy of DBZ is to overcome any and all limits. That's not an opinion, that's how it is. Just because the author stopped writing, doesn't mean his characters didn't continue to grow. SSJ3 was supposedly as strong as Goku could get yet we have SSJ4 and SSJ God.

Does it mention Goten and Trunks specifically? There's more indication in his words that there is an absolute limit, show me the interview where he states the opposite because your own foundation of proof seems flimsy. It is an opinion, just because someone has the drive and keeps aiming to surpass their limits doesn't mean they can actually succeed. Vegeta is exemplary of that. That is not grounds for belief of them having unlimited strength.

Vegeta is always breaking limits. Sorry but he personifies the philosophy as much as Goku does. The Kanzenban ending to the manga also implies Vegeta can still get stronger. Toriyama's statement is generic and shouldn't be taken literally. He said everyone can't get stronger. That's bull shit since Goten and Trunks definitely haven't hit a cap.

Oh, so Goten and Trunks can't get stronger? That's as generic of a statement as you can get.

Obviously no. Goten & Trunks are still too young, and haven't even trained hard like the others. As for the others though, it is proven that there is a limit in their growth:

Kame-sennin: Stayed permanently behind Goku & co. after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai (though his age could be a factor to it).
Chaozu: Stayed permanently far behind Tenshinhan, Yamcha, etc after Freeza arc.
Tenshinhan & Yamcha: Stayed permanently behind Kuririn after Freeza arc.
Kuririn: Stayed permanently behind the base Saiyans after Freeza arc.
Piccolo: Stayed permanently behind the Super Saiyans after RoSaT.
Goku & Vegeta: After 7 years of extremely hard training, they didn't even get 2 times stronger.
Gohan: Had all of his dormant powers drawn out far, far, faaa~ar beyond their limits.

The humans and Piccolo still grew, assuming they trained. I'm not looking for exponential growth. I'm saying there is no cap for Ki growth.

[hleV]

Cell Games SS Goku was less than 2 times weaker than Cell Games SS Gohan, and Boo arc SS Goku was less than 2 times stronger than Boo arc SS Gohan.

How?

[goku the krump dancer]

I have Goku and Gohan during the Cell games being pretty much even. Theres really no clear way of knowing just how strong SSJ Kid Gohan was because Cell was holding back and Gohan refused to fight.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

In Gohan's mind, Goku wasn't the least bit impressive and looked quite weak. I always liked the idea of Gohan only being a bit stronger, but I can't see Gohan saying that if the difference was barely noticeable.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Cell Games SS Goku was less than 2 times weaker than Cell Games SS Gohan, and Boo arc SS Goku was less than 2 times stronger than Boo arc SS Gohan.

How?

For Cell Games Goku & Gohan: It's obvious that there is not a huge difference in their powers, since Goku was mainly relying on Gohan's hidden powers.
For Boo arc Goku & Gohan: Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are treated as being in the same category by Dabra & Kaioshin, and Goku considered to use Fusion with Gohan, so there isn't a very huge difference in their powers.