TheMightyOzaru wrote:Sigh.... That plot point is beyond stupid. The infinite energy reactors are just energy storage systems that replenish when energy leaves the body. This right here is diminishing Dr Gero's feat .
And that means that can work continuously forever without maintenance and without breaking down? Always working properly?
Yes. The fact that he would go so far as to downplay Dr Gero's feat of creating such an amazing device is entirely stupid. This is just as stupid as saying Rou Kaioshin enchanted the Potara earrings, oh wait....
TheOverlyMadHatter wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:And a violation of manga canon. Tons of characters, including Gero himself, said they had infinite energy.
It's not all that contradicting, when you think about it. It's better a explanation than "Oh no! Somehow, Trunks travelling back in time made the present Jinzoningen even stronger than in the future! We would have won otherwise!". That was always a plothole haphazardly explained.
C-17 and C-18 might not even be stronger in the present. They always held back on Trunks in his timeline so he wouldn't even be able to tell.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheMightyOzaru wrote:Sigh.... That plot point is beyond stupid. The infinite energy reactors are just energy storage systems that replenish when energy leaves the body. This right here is diminishing Dr Gero's feat .
And that means that can work continuously forever without maintenance and without breaking down? Always working properly?
Yes. The fact that he would go so far as to downplay Dr Gero's feat of creating such an amazing device is entirely stupid. This is just as stupid as saying Rou Kaioshin enchanted the Potara earrings, oh wait....
Or that Super Saiyan 4 came with pants! Oh wait...
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Yes. The fact that he would go so far as to downplay Dr Gero's feat of creating such an amazing device is entirely stupid. This is just as stupid as saying Rou Kaioshin enchanted the Potara earrings, oh wait....
Or that Super Saiyan 4 came with pants! Oh wait...
I don't see how that's nearly as illogical. We see Piccolo conjuring clothing, so it's not entirely ridiculous to assume Goku can use his Ki to conjure clothes. That's also something very minor.
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TheMightyOzaru wrote:Sigh.... That plot point is beyond stupid. The infinite energy reactors are just energy storage systems that replenish when energy leaves the body. This right here is diminishing Dr Gero's feat .
And that means that can work continuously forever without maintenance and without breaking down? Always working properly?
Yes. The fact that he would go so far as to downplay Dr Gero's feat of creating such an amazing device is entirely stupid. This is just as stupid as saying Rou Kaioshin enchanted the Potara earrings, oh wait....
What...? All that was meant in the manga in regards to their power being infinite is that their systems continuously produce energy. In other words, it doesn't run of fuel to produce energy. That doesn't mean that the system is indestructible, that it won't ever need maintenance or that its immune to the passage of time.
You are too caught up in the word infinite. Infinite in that context just means that the system won't run out of fuel and that it will produce energy as long as it works. If it was infinite in the true sense of the word, they would be the strongest characters in Dragon Ball because their power wouldn't have any sort of limit or end. That's the true meaning of the word infinite. So, even the manga implies that its not truly infinite in the literal sense of the word.
Last edited by rereboy on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rereboy wrote:What...? All that was meant in the manga in regards to their power being infinite is that their systems continuously produce energy. In other words, it doesn't run of fuel to produce energy. That doesn't mean that the system is indestructible, that it won't ever need maintenance or that its immune to the passage of time.
You are too caught up in the word infinite. Infinite in that context just means that the system won't run out of fuel and that it will produce energy as long as it works. If it was infinite in the true sense of the word, they would be the strongest characters in Dragon Ball because their power wouldn't have any sort of limit or end. That's the true meaning of the word infinite. So, even the manga implies that its not truly infinite in the literal sense of the word.
I'm well aware of how the infinite energy reactors operate. To truly have unlimited energy would make someone invincible. My problem is that he felt the need to screw with something that didn't need to be screwed with. How do you know that Gero's device needed maintenance? You don't. It's safe to assume it doesn't because it's never ever mentioned. I get quite annoyed when this guy feels the need to explain or change things that don't need to be explained or changed . I especially hate what he did with Vegetto's diffusion.
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TheMightyOzaru wrote:
I'm well aware of how the infinite energy reactors operate. To truly have unlimited energy would make someone invincible. My problem is that he felt the need to screw with something that didn't need to be screwed with. How do you know that Gero's device needed maintenance? You don't. It's safe to assume it doesn't because it's never ever mentioned. I get quite annoyed when this guy feels the need to explain or change things that don't need to be explained or changed . I especially hate what he did with Vegetto's diffusion.
I see... So you have a perfectly logical explanation for something that is never explained in the manga and that fits, and also provides a somewhat interesting motivation for the androids to reject their evil ways and ask for help. But it bothers you simply because you don't feel its that necessary. Hmm... Well, by that logic, the entire fan comic is unnecessary.
I find some of the things DBM added bad, but not this one. There's no problem with it at all.
Last edited by rereboy on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:
I'm well aware of how the infinite energy reactors operate. To truly have unlimited energy would make someone invincible. My problem is that he felt the need to screw with something that didn't need to be screwed with. How do you know that Gero's device needed maintenance? You don't. It's safe to assume it doesn't because it's never ever mentioned. I get quite annoyed when this guy feels the need to explain or change things that don't need to be explained or changed . I especially hate what he did with Vegetto's diffusion.
I see... So you have a perfectly logical explanation for something that is never explained in the manga and that fits, and also provides a somewhat interesting motivation for the androids to reject their evil ways and ask for help. But it bothers you simply because you don't feel its that necessary. Hmm... Well, by that logic, the entire fan comic is unnecessary.
Why does the infinite energy reactor need to be explained? It's a device that replenishes energy. Saying that it needs maintenance gives the cyborgs an unnecessary flaw.
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Because it explains the unexplained plothole of the manga for the androids of the future being weaker than the current ones (there's only theories reagarding that, not an actual stated and confirmed reason) and it actually adds a somewhat interesting reason for the androids to want to reform themselves and ask for help. And it does this without conflicting with anything in the manga.
And they didn't actually explain the device and how it works. They just said, "you know, its a machine, sooner or later it will start to break down if it doesn't have maintenance". That's just common sense.
Who's to say the future androids are even weaker? C-17 and C-18 always toyed with him, and Vegeta just showed more power than the Cyborgs ever showed against him. Gero's machines don't operate under common sense. The idea of an energy reactor capable of producing infinite amounts of energy is ridiculous in and of itself.
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TheMightyOzaru wrote:The idea of an energy reactor capable of producing infinite amounts of energy is ridiculous in and of itself.
Honestly, that right there is one of the reasons I myself don't really mind this plot twist being introduced. It makes sense to me that, assuming such a device is possible, that one of the drawbacks would be that it'd eventually burn itself out and stop working at full capacity.
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TheMightyOzaru wrote:The idea of an energy reactor capable of producing infinite amounts of energy is ridiculous in and of itself.
Honestly, that right there is one of the reasons I myself don't really mind this plot twist being introduced. It makes sense to me that, assuming such a device is possible, that one of the drawbacks would be that it'd eventually burn itself out and stop working at full capacity.
The reactor is still producing energy out of nowhere.
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TheMightyOzaru wrote:Who's to say the future androids are even weaker? C-17 and C-18 always toyed with him, and Vegeta just showed more power than the Cyborgs ever showed against him.
That just a theory to explain why Trunks stated that the present ones were stronger than the ones from the future. The truth is that its not explained in the manga. DBM just chose one theory, just like you are choosing one to explain it.
Gero's machines don't operate under common sense. The idea of an energy reactor capable of producing infinite amounts of energy is ridiculous in and of itself.
They are stated or implied to produce energy continuously without the need for fuel. But they aren't stated to be immune to the passage of time and be impossible to break down eventually without maintenance. So why would you assume they are? Its also not stated in the manga that the androids are capable of making popcorn out of their bellybuttons. Should we assume that they can do it? Why not, they are machines that don't operate under common sense, who's to say that they don't? See, that's why that argument doesn't mean anything.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:The idea of an energy reactor capable of producing infinite amounts of energy is ridiculous in and of itself.
Honestly, that right there is one of the reasons I myself don't really mind this plot twist being introduced. It makes sense to me that, assuming such a device is possible, that one of the drawbacks would be that it'd eventually burn itself out and stop working at full capacity.
The reactor is still producing energy out of nowhere.
They are, but that's why I kind of like this twist myself - it makes the devices a little more believable if they have a drawback of some sort.
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Gyt Kaliba wrote:
They are, but that's why I kind of like this twist myself - it makes the devices a little more believable if they have a drawback of some sort.
The drawback of every machine in existence? That it eventually breaks down if it doesn't have proper maintenance? Not sure why everyone assumed it would work without any flaw forever in the first place, even if it draws energy from nothing. Personally, I had never thought of it until DBM brought it up, but if someone had asked me before I seriously doubt I would just assume that it would work flawlessly forever.
I didn't assume that they'd always work flawlessly though, not really - I'd just never thought about it before now and went on the assumption of 'they're working now, aren't they?' and moved on. But if someone had raised this point - that they'd fit with every other machine and need maintenance eventually - to me outside of a fan comic at any point before this, I'd have instantly thought 'yeah, that does make sense'.
Last edited by Gyt Kaliba on Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Fair enough. You could however assume Dr Gero spent more time on them in the present. An overheating energy reactor definitely makes sense, but the way this series portrays this weakness is a bit absurd. Running out of energy completely? Yeah no. It would be a gradual decrease like the manga seems to imply with the future cyborgs.
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.
All that was meant in the manga in regards to their power being infinite is that their systems continuously produce energy. In other words, it doesn't run of fuel to produce energy. That doesn't mean that the system is indestructible, that it won't ever need maintenance or that its immune to the passage of time. 
