Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
TheGmGoken wrote:Once again it's your opinion. Cyborg arc had Inconsistencies too. It was even more sloppy than the Boo Arc IMO. We have OOC moments and the main villain changing 3 times. Also what fan theories for the Boo Arc? Fusion and Potara power increase? That's not bad writing. It's your opinion that it's not written well.
Objective flaws aren't opinion based. You may not like the Cyborg arc as much as the Buu arc, that's all fine and dandy, but what you cannot claim is that the Cyborg arc is more poorly written than the Buu arc without providing examples. The Buu arc is poorly written because A.) It builds Gohan up only to have him knocked down by Goku. To see such development thrown away is just glaringly bad. B.) The power scaling is poor. Piccolo makes Kaioshin out to be this immensely powerful guy only to surpassed by the SSJs. We also have Dabura claiming 3 of the 7 people on the cliff have immense power. One would assume Piccolo would be one of the 3, but nope. Instead we see Piccolo get stoned, in what should be Gohan's place. He's only gotten weaker as Piccolo has gotten stronger. There's no way base Gohan is superior to Piccolo even if you believe Goku and Vegeta are. There are just a few examples. C.) Anyone who isn't a SSJ is useless. This trend started to rear it's head during the Cyborg arc, but it's very glaring here. At least Piccolo was useful, hell even Tenshinhan contributed, but in the Buu arc? Hah! If you aren't a freakin SSJ you're f***ed. Honestly Gohan's development being wasted is enough to put this arc below any of the others in terms of writing as far as I'm concerned. As for OOC moments, I don't recall many. Vegeta's pride is through the roof after attaining SSJ. His decision to let Cell become complete actually makes sense. The only one I can recall is Gohan being a pacifist, and even then you could argue the time he had in the ROSAT with his father made him more peaceful. If you really want OOC, look at Goku in the Buu arc. I also don't see what's wrong with a main villain shift. If anything, it adds to the story.
I've been saying Cybrog arc writing < Boo Arc writing BEFORE I even liked the Boo arc. I used to be a Cell Arc fanboy. So yes it's is an OPINION.
Example A Counter: Gohan was bulid the same way in Cell Arc. Only to forget his goal to protect and become a no fighter. Also Goku saved the day(With Vegeta as well) in this arc anyways. Gohan was overshadowed.
Example B: I agree they fucked up power scaling with the Gohan and Piccolo thing.
Example C Counter: It was going to come to point anyways. I mean you can't expect Piccolo to keep up with A SSJ3. Hell even SSj2 would make Piccolo his bitch. So that's reasonable.
Goku being an asshole isn't OCC since he acted the same way in BoG.
The villain shift was poor though. Gero created 18 and 17 for world control. He then creates 19 cause he's easier. He then make Cell to eat 17 and 18. It's all the place. Cell was also a boring villain around the time he became Semi Perfect. How Boo Arc changed villian was better as it shows Boo evolution as a character
I definitely would've ended it at the Cell saga. That was the perfect ending for the series and wrapped it all up nicely.
As far as Boo vs. Cell, The Cell saga's writing is definitely more, I suppose, erratic, due to the constant editor-influence changes, but the Buu saga is extremely sloppy and has a lot of inconsistent logic. During the Super Buu stuff in particular it just seemed to have no direction.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words? Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up! Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes! Cold World (Fanfic) "It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
TheGmGoken wrote:Example A Counter: Gohan was bulid the same way in Cell Arc. Only to forget his goal to protect and become a no fighter. Also Goku saved the day(With Vegeta as well) in this arc anyways. Gohan was overshadowed.
The villain shift was poor though. Gero created 18 and 17 for world control. He then creates 19 cause he's easier. He then make Cell to eat 17 and 18. It's all the place. Cell was also a boring villain around the time he became Semi Perfect. How Boo Arc changed villian was better as it shows Boo evolution as a character
Umm, the Cell arc doesn't start Gohan's lack of training. That's the Buu arc. Furthermore Gohan's development was never the main focus. It only started shifting toward that during the late Cell arc. The Buu arc takes that and takes a shit on it. A villain shift isn't poor writing. Buu doesn't grow in his character though. His personality changes based on what he absorbs.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
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TheGmGoken wrote:Example A Counter: Gohan was bulid the same way in Cell Arc. Only to forget his goal to protect and become a no fighter. Also Goku saved the day(With Vegeta as well) in this arc anyways. Gohan was overshadowed.
The villain shift was poor though. Gero created 18 and 17 for world control. He then creates 19 cause he's easier. He then make Cell to eat 17 and 18. It's all the place. Cell was also a boring villain around the time he became Semi Perfect. How Boo Arc changed villian was better as it shows Boo evolution as a character
Umm, the Cell arc doesn't start Gohan's lack of training. That's the Buu arc. Furthermore Gohan's development was never the main focus. It only started shifting toward that during the late Cell arc. The Buu arc takes that and takes a shit on it. A villain shift isn't poor writing. Buu doesn't grow in his character though. His personality changes based on what he absorbs.
I obviously meant Gohan wanting to help fight. Not lack of training. It may not been the main focus for the entire arc but. It played a major part and did a bad job. It was shitted on the moment Gohan needed a hand. Boo character did grow. Mainly Fat boo. Thank you Mark Satan. Super boo was a good one as well.
I think both arcs balance each other out in their crap.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I think both arcs balance each other out in their crap.
I agree with this for the most part. I just don't think the Cyborg arc has a lot of crap to balance out.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote: We also have Dabura claiming 3 of the 7 people on the cliff have immense power. One would assume Piccolo would be one of the 3, but nope. Instead we see Piccolo get stoned, in what should be Gohan's place. He's only gotten weaker as Piccolo has gotten stronger. There's no way base Gohan is superior to Piccolo even if you believe Goku and Vegeta are.
Everyone was suppressed on the cliff, Babidi & Dabra are magical beings, and since they believed that Pui Pui would be enough to beat the Saiyans, it seems that they could only tell who had the most energy (Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan as Super Saiyan 2), but they couldn't measure their power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
That's not implied in the slightest. Dabura claims 3 of them possess enormous power.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's not implied in the slightest. Dabura claims 3 of them possess enormous power.
And he also claims that Pui Pui could handle them, not to mention that they were suppressed so that they won't be detected.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's not implied in the slightest. Dabura claims 3 of them possess enormous power.
And he also claims that Pui Pui could handle them, not to mention that they were suppressed so that they won't be detected.
Thanks for only further supporting my point that the power scaling in this arc is flawed. Even suppressed, there's no reason the 3 Saiyans should be above Piccolo.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
OR the author did not think everyone would be arguing over innocuous points he wrote cuz he is simply letting the reader know that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are MVPs lol and its a kids story so just roll with it...
It's hard to take this argument about the series seriously when the author himself didn't.
"You might think you know everything there is to know about me, but really, you're not even CLOSE."
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." ~ Sir Winston Chruchill / Dragon Ball Z in a nutshell
How I enjoy the anime:
Spoiler:
I like to switch between the dub and the original. If I want to watch the original I'll watch it subbed on my Dragon Boxes.
If I want to watch it dubbed I'll watch the funimation singles and my dragon boxes for the other episodes in proper aspect ratio. Aside from the Vegeta arc I cannot stand the dub with the Japanese music, as it just does not mesh with the dub script and acting.
Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of the Kikuchi score and think it works perfectly with the Japanese cast...but the American audio in Z and Kai just sounds awful with it.
Kai is the only version of the dub I cannot watch whether it be Yamamoto's score or Kikuchii's ad hoc replacement. Until this forum I had not encountered a single person who preferred Kai to Z in terms of dub.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's not implied in the slightest. Dabura claims 3 of them possess enormous power.
And he also claims that Pui Pui could handle them, not to mention that they were suppressed so that they won't be detected.
Thanks for only further supporting my point that the power scaling in this arc is flawed. Even suppressed, there's no reason the 3 Saiyans should be above Piccolo.
All 7 of them were suppressed to zero, how does this support your point? They were all suppressed, yet Dabra could tell that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan had enormous power, and that Piccolo & Kuririn are trash in front of them. However, Dabra believed that they were weaker than Pui Pui, then Yakon, and then even than himself, while it's stated that they are far above Dabra. So, the only logical explanation is that Babidi and/or Dabra could sense them & tell who had enormous power and who didn't (despite the fact that they were suppressed & untransformed), but couldn't measure their power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
There is no such thing as something being objectively poorly written. Inconsistencies can be object facts, yes (although often they require a degree of personal judgement to determine whether they are or are not inconsistent) but having inconsistencies doesn't make something objectively poorly written.
Anyway, on topic, I would have ended it at an earlier point by having Gohan defeat Boo instead of going through the Vegetto/Pure Boo stuff. But if I can't end it midway through an arc, then no, I wouldn't. Ending it any sooner than that would mean missing out on a lot of the things I really enjoy, and that'd be a damn shame. Besides, I think the only arc that would actually work as an ending to the series would be the Saiyan arc. I suppose that would mean the series ended on it's highest point, but that's not really important to me.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
TheGmGoken wrote:I should have used "Jump over the shark" which means the say thing but remove the "Beyond repair". I believe DBZ has decrease in quality.
DBZ "jumped over the shark" after the Cell arc. The writing got fairly messy.
They jumped over the shark during Cyborg arc. Then they killed the Shark at Boo Arc(Thats a good thing btw). Then with BoG they Jumped over the shark. This is for mainstream Dbz things only. Cause if we include the movies and EOB then the list will change forever
Tgen I'd say it jumped the shark when he reduced Freeza to being a jobber to random teenagers...whom of which don't even end up being the truel villain of the Saga but killed it with the introduction of Cell (3rd best villain behind Vegeta (2nd) and Freeza (1st)) then jumped another shark by giving Gohan the spotlight without giving much foreshadowing then was eaten whole by said Shark with the introduction of Kaioshin, Babidi (loved it when Boo killed him even as a kid), Fat Boo (as a villain), and Vegeta's sacrifice being meaningless.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's not implied in the slightest. Dabura claims 3 of them possess enormous power.
Its common sense. They are suppressing their power because don't want to be found out. So, unless Dabra can see beyond their suppression, Dabra has literally no way to know which ones are significantly stronger because they are all suppressing their power down to something like 0,1 units with hardly any differences between them.
Also, just because Dabra can somehow magically tell that those three are stronger, it doesn't mean that he can tell exactly how strong they are. Its probably not an exact science, so he just can tell that they are stronger than the others and that their power is relevant and not "trash" like the others.
The problem with the whole Dabura scene is that it implies the base Saiyans are above Piccolo. It's quite obvious, observing Toriyama's writing style, that he didn't put a ton of thought into this scene and many other scenes in this arc. There are more scaling issues than the ones I mentioned. I'll name them if need be. Also, there is such thing as an objectively poorly written story Saiga.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
I wouldn't have ended it earlier so much as I would just change some things around. Character choices, outcomes of fights, etc. Despite its flaws in pacing and consistency, I still love Dragonball for what it is. From the first chapter to the last.
Yeah, I love the ideas the Buu arc gave, it's story was just messy. I would make Gohan a Ssj2 when he fought Dabura and Buu. I would change Dabura's statement about the 7 to 6 of them possess incredible energy. Krillin would be the only one removed from the equation. Piccolo would still be stoned, but only because he attacked him. Babidi would scold him for doing so, but he wouldn't make a big deal of it. I would also change the ending. Ultimate Gohan would be the one that kills Buu.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:The problem with the whole Dabura scene is that it implies the base Saiyans are above Piccolo. It's quite obvious, observing Toriyama's writing style, that he didn't put a ton of thought into this scene and many other scenes in this arc. There are more scaling issues than the ones I mentioned. I'll name them if need be. Also, there is such thing as an objectively poorly written story Saiga.
If he magically or instinctively can tell that the Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo despite them all being suppressed, then his magic or his instinct probably can see past the fact that they aren't transformed and figure out that they are stronger than Piccolo.
TheGmGoken wrote:End the series at Cell Arc. Have Boo arc as a OVA series or a movie series. Then never make BoG(Jumping the shark).
Serious Post:
I like the idea of it ending at Cell arc. I was tired of how in the Z era Goku would get taken out of action only to re appear with BIG power. So I would of love Gohan as the new hero. Have the Bojack movie be a OVA or something. Then after years and years. We don't get BoG(YES! YES! YES!). We get the Boo Arc as a movie series. With Boo Arc spanning an episode backstory(Replace EOB) of Majin boo. A movie of the first portion of the Boo Arc(Change some things and ending with Goku leaving and Gohan being revealed to be alive in Elder Kai world) and the 2nd movie being the 2nd portion(Mystic Gohan to Vegetto). Yes I know I contradicted myself. But ending the movie series as Goku being the hero makes sense since Goku is Iconic
:origin()/pre04/7639/th/pre/f/2015/175/5/c/goku_ssj_2____dios__by_naruto999_by_roker-d8ynm2x.jpg)
