Nappa's power level

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by rereboy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:04 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
The way that Nappa and Vegeta look down on Raditz because he's such a weakling (seemingly only interacting with him because he was the only other known living Saiya-jin), I don't see him having the same capabilities in combat (namely the ability to increase his battle power from a base point) that they do. If it was something they all shared the ability to do, then why do we not see Raditz "power up" at any point?

Both Nappa and Vegeta's comments still stem from their surprise of being able to suppress battle powers below their own "base", not just the ability to power up, and Vegeta's later comment was more a surprise as to how drastic their jumps can be from being suppressed to full strength, and more a confirmation of their abilities rather than shock about it.

As said, it's the ability to drop it below their base that was beyond their capabilities at the time. Like Nappa could go above 4,000 if he wanted to in battle, but he lacked the ability to suppress his strength below 4,000, so no matter what, that was as far as he could get. Whereas if he had the abilities that the Z Senshi had, he could suppress it down to 5 if he wanted to just to throw them off. Fundamentally I see no difference between what scouters can pick up and what ki sensing can pick up, other than scouters can give precise readings while ki sensing can just give estimates. If scouters were that much better than ki sensing, then Vegeta wouldn't have destroyed his on Namek once he learned how to sense ki. They do the same thing, just one's more accurate than the other.
They are surprised that their power reading in the scouter can increase. It does not matter HOW they do it, if its because they suppressed their power or because they can somehow increase it at will. They see a certain power level in their scouter and then that power level changes and increases, that's what they find abnormal and surprising.

Vegeta and Nappa's reactions to that fact are perfectly consistent with Radditz's reactions and they never suggest that Radditz shouldn't have been surprised by it, so the fact that Radditz was a weakling compared to them has no bearing in the issue.

If you still have any doubts then think about the fight between Kiwi and Vegeta in Namek. Kiwi read Vegeta's power level with his scouter and was immediately sure that he would win. Then, Vegeta increased his power level and his scouter reading increased. Kiwi immediately started to panic. He had absolutely no idea that Vegeta could do that and then Vegeta kills him. And Pui Pui was not the only one surprised. Dodoria and Zarbon, who were following the battle with their scouters, were also very surprised and even considered if it was a scouter malfunction.

How do you explain all that if Vegeta and Nappa could alter their scouter readings at will while on Earth? You can't, it doesn't make any sense.

EDIT: replaced Pui Pui with Kiwi. I used Pui Pui by mistake.
Last edited by rereboy on Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Godo » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:13 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Things still don't add up. Goku says that after Nappa starts fighting seriously, he starts to become troublesome. Someone who is over twice as weak CANNOT do that based on what the series has shown us. Vegeta can manhandle Dodoria with 4% difference yet Nappa can give Goku trouble despite being 100+% weaker? I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up.
Yet Vegeta handled the KK x 4 Kamehameha of Goku's, even though he took it head-on and was roughly 50% weaker.
It is pretty well shown that the Saiya-jins have a monstrous durability, and Nappa and Vegeta's durability is what makes them so troublesome (as an example, when Vegeta is blown away by the Kamehameha, Goku mentions that it isn't over yet, and that Vegeta is though). Goku as well has this durability.
So this issue is taken from the wrong standpoint. Instead of being obsessed with the powerlevels and believe that they are the sole and mighty rulers of an outcome of a fight, durability also is a huge factor (which IMO seemed to be the case as I read the manga the first time and didn't even know about Nappa's powerlevel).
Both Vegeta and Nappa were overpowered in their fights against Goku (in Vegeta's case it was once) and both took the beatings much better than, say, the Earthlings.
Nappa was troublesome because of that he didn't go down no matter how much beating he went through.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:42 am

Durability has nothing to do with Nappa's ability to keep up with Goku.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:37 am

Godo wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Things still don't add up. Goku says that after Nappa starts fighting seriously, he starts to become troublesome. Someone who is over twice as weak CANNOT do that based on what the series has shown us. Vegeta can manhandle Dodoria with 4% difference yet Nappa can give Goku trouble despite being 100+% weaker? I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up.
Yet Vegeta handled the KK x 4 Kamehameha of Goku's, even though he took it head-on and was roughly 50% weaker.
It is pretty well shown that the Saiya-jins have a monstrous durability, and Nappa and Vegeta's durability is what makes them so troublesome (as an example, when Vegeta is blown away by the Kamehameha, Goku mentions that it isn't over yet, and that Vegeta is though). Goku as well has this durability.
So this issue is taken from the wrong standpoint. Instead of being obsessed with the powerlevels and believe that they are the sole and mighty rulers of an outcome of a fight, durability also is a huge factor (which IMO seemed to be the case as I read the manga the first time and didn't even know about Nappa's powerlevel).
Both Vegeta and Nappa were overpowered in their fights against Goku (in Vegeta's case it was once) and both took the beatings much better than, say, the Earthlings.
Nappa was troublesome because of that he didn't go down no matter how much beating he went through.
There's a difference between tanking a hit (which could be attributed to durability) and moving at speeds and demonstrating levels of strength rivaling that of the opponent. Vegeta taking the Kamehameha and still being able to fight afterwards is a testament to his durability, but for Nappa and Goku to be fighting at near equal levels, going blow for blow against one another, and then Goku attesting that the fight may last forever after dealing with an example of Nappa's strength (negating his mouth blast with a Kamehameha) suggests near equal levels of power rather than just being durable.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Kakashi » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:40 am

Initial Nappa: 3,000
Powered Up Nappa: 4,000
Full Power Nappa: 7,600

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:48 am

Nappa can't suppress his battle power to such a degree. Vegeta makes a fairly big deal of being able to suppress himself on Namek when he fights Kiwi.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Godo » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:11 pm

Nappa kept up with Goku because of that Goku didn't go all out (the fact that Goku adjusts his power against a weaker enemy and doesn't go all out is known ever since the Tenkaichi Budokai in early Dragonball).
Look at the difference in the faces they make. One seems to make a much higher effort than the other.

Goku didn't go all out, thus it makes sense that he had to evade other hits as well (compare Perfect Cell vs. Goku, where Cell didn't go all out and took a lot of hits, Goku vs. Tenshinhan in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, where Goku took a lot of hits ect).

The thing is that it makes sense (if you want to), but not to your specific way of thinking, which you are unable to let go.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:19 pm

If he were holding back as much as you're suggesting, then it wouldn't make any sense that he'd feel that the fight would last forever.
Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4
Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast
Vegeta: “Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!”
Goku: “Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I’d have been in trouble!!”
Nappa: It…It can’t be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!”
Goku: “He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever...”
Beforehand Goku had no apprehension about beating Nappa around, seeking to repay him for what he did to Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and the others, so why would he decide to hold back later on if Nappa suddenly started fighting so much more effectively against him?

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:22 pm

We just had this conversation like 2 months ago. It didn't need a new topic.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:24 pm

Godo wrote:Nappa kept up with Goku because of that Goku didn't go all out
Did you not reading the opening post?
Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4
Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast
Vegeta: “Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!”
Goku: “Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I’d have been in trouble!!”
Nappa: It…It can’t be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!”
Goku: “He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever...”
Goku's not holding back.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Son_Gohan » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:27 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Nappa can't suppress his battle power to such a degree. Vegeta makes a fairly big deal of being able to suppress himself on Namek when he fights Kiwi.
There's a difference between consciously suppressing their power and what they give off naturally by being at ease.

Nappa was depicted stronger since he had been active in battle, compared to Vegeta who was just standing around:

Chapter: 219 (DBZ 25), P12.5
Context: after Vegeta orders Nappa to stop and Nappa instantly complies
Piccolo: “The way the big one cowered…that must mean that the little one is even more powerful. It’s hopeless!”

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:33 pm

That's inconsistent then. It's made quite clear that Nappa and Vegeta don't know how to increase their power levels by such a margin:
Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:49 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's inconsistent then. It's made quite clear that Nappa and Vegeta don't know how to increase their power levels by such a margin:
Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”
Both Vegeta & Nappa have been shown changing their power, either by powering-up in a fight, or by using techniques (Vegeta with the Gyarik-Ho, Nappa with his Ki Blast from his mouth).
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by rereboy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:55 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's inconsistent then. It's made quite clear that Nappa and Vegeta don't know how to increase their power levels by such a margin:
Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”
Both Vegeta & Nappa have been shown changing their power, either by powering-up in a fight, or by using techniques (Vegeta with the Gyarik-Ho, Nappa with his Ki Blast from his mouth).
Untrue. There was never any scouter reading showing them changing their power level and their reactions to the fighters that could basically tells us that they think that was abnormal and that they couldn't do it. In fact, Kiwi, Zarbon and Dodoria are all shocked when Vegeta does it in Namek.

We just see them going form a passive state to an active state. And concentrating to use your more power more effectively doesn't mean that the scouter couldn't pick up your full power before then. That only happens with fighters who manage to lock away part of their power, only unlocking it when they feel the need to, fooling the scouter.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:57 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's inconsistent then. It's made quite clear that Nappa and Vegeta don't know how to increase their power levels by such a margin:
Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”
Both Vegeta & Nappa have been shown changing their power, either by powering-up in a fight, or by using techniques (Vegeta with the Gyarik-Ho, Nappa with his Ki Blast from his mouth).
Attack amplification is different than a base power up.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Son_Gohan » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:04 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's inconsistent then. It's made quite clear that Nappa and Vegeta don't know how to increase their power levels by such a margin:
Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”
No, it's common sense. Nappa was simply in an activity that employed more of his energy. If you think he uses the same amount of energy while at rest as when he fights, then you're only confusing yourself.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:08 pm

rereboy wrote:Untrue. There was never any scouter reading showing them changing their power level and their reactions to the fighters that could basically tells us that they think that was abnormal and that they couldn't do it. In fact, Kiwi, Zarbon and Dodoria are all shocked when Vegeta does it in Namek.
The Z-Senshi felt a power increase though, and Piccolo could only guess that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Attack amplification is different than a base power up.
Vegeta & Nappa were surprised that Gohan could increase his BP so drastically by using the Masenko as well, and Raditz was surprised with Goku's Kamehameha & Piccolo's Makankosappo.

To me, it seems like Vegeta & Nappa can suppress their powers, but not to the degree the Z-Fighters could. Same about their ki attack amplification, they can't increase their power as drastically as the Z-Senshi could.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by rereboy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:09 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:That's inconsistent then. It's made quite clear that Nappa and Vegeta don't know how to increase their power levels by such a margin:
Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”
No, it's common sense. Nappa was simply in an activity that employed more of his energy. If you think he uses the same amount of energy while at rest as when he fights, then you're only confusing yourself.
He's not using it, he's in a passive state. However, he is not suppressing it like the earthlings do, he is not locking it away inside of him, meaning that a scouter would still pick up his full power in his passive state.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: The Z-Senshi felt a power increase though, and Piccolo could only guess that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa.
Ki sensing is completely different from scouters' readings.

Ki sensing is based on instinct and felling, which is why they can't translate what they feel into numbers and why they can feel the Ki of the opponent much more accurately when the opponent is actually using it.

There's literally no other option that makes sense other than Vegeta and Nappa being unable to fool scouters' readings while on Earth. Kiwi was completely sure of his win against Vegeta just because his scouter reading indicated that Vegeta was a few thousands of units weaker than him, and completely shocked when Vegeta increased it.
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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by Kaboom » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:47 pm

My simple solution settled upon after multiple threads of pointless debate:

Goku's about twice as strong as Nappa, but he's very balanced in terms of his "stats." Nappa, however, is extremely tough and resilient for someone of his power level. Thus he's able to take Goku's hits fairly well, and his size and build give him enough raw physical strength to exchange blows with Goku too.

Lookit that, an explanation that doesn't focus around just comparing numbers.

As for Nappa's "ultimate attack," you don't have to fuss about numbers for that, either. Nothing says that Nappa's attack would need to have extreme amplification and produce a PL number higher than Goku's just to hurt him. If you want, one could easily assume that any character's big and focused blasts like that one naturally amplify one's ki to a relatively small degree (yet focusing it so intently that your power level doubles or even triples like Goku and Piccolo did is unheard-of). So Nappa's big mouth blast may pack a power of something like 6000, enough to "hurt" Goku at 8000 if he took it point-blank and unguarded.

Even with all that said... seriously, trust me on this one. I've read and participated in these debates about Nappa's power a hundred times over. Having a problem with Nappa's power level is just a sign that you're too focused on comparing numbers in the first place.

They fought. Goku knocked Nappa around. Nappa calmed down and improved his performance but still couldn't lay a finger on Goku. Nappa tried his ultimate attack but Goku quickly deflected it at point-blank range. All this says that Goku's stronger, and that's what matters most. The specific relative gap between them is of secondary importance, if of any importance at all.
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Re: Nappa's power level

Post by rereboy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:55 pm

The problem is that, like TheMightyOzaru said, being tough and resilient doesn't explain how Nappa can keep up with someone more than twice his power. Even if it is only thanks to his toughness that Nappa didn't go down in a couple of hits, with less than half of the power of Goku he should be completely unable to keep up and trade blows with him, no matter how focused he is.

And I don't agree with the notion that Vegeta and Nappa can increase their scouter readings with special attacks. That's exactly what Goku did when ge was fighting Radditz, and Radditz was shocked that he could alter his scouter reading like that. And Vegeta took note of that even before reaching Earth. If Nappa and Vegeta could also alter their scouter readings with special attacks, what would be the difference compared to what Goku did agaisnt Radditz? Why the surprise? It only makes sense if they can't.

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