Nappa's power level

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And I don't agree with the notion that Vegeta and Nappa can increase their scouter readings with special attacks. That's exactly what Goku did when ge was fighting Radditz, and Radditz was shocked that he could alter his scouter reading like that. And Vegeta took note of that even before reaching Earth. If Nappa and Vegeta could also alter their scouter readings with special attacks, what would be the difference compared to what Goku did agaisnt Radditz? Why the surprise? It only makes sense if they can't.

Vegeta's BP was 18.000, and his Gyarik-Ho could rival Goku's Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha (24.000), so his Gyarik-Ho should be at 24.000 as well (from both his Kaio-ken x3/4 Kamehameha against Vegeta & his Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha against Freeza, I came to the conclusion that that if the multiplier of Kaio-ken is greater that that of the Kamehameha, the Kamehameha takes the multiplier of the Kaio-ken). However, that's a less than x2 increase, while both Goku's Kamehameha & Gohan's Masenko were over x2 stronger. Nappa also said that his mouth blast was his strongest attack. So, I can't help but think that Vegeta & Nappa can amplify their attacks, but not by much.

[rereboy]

And I don't agree with the notion that Vegeta and Nappa can increase their scouter readings with special attacks. That's exactly what Goku did when ge was fighting Radditz, and Radditz was shocked that he could alter his scouter reading like that. And Vegeta took note of that even before reaching Earth. If Nappa and Vegeta could also alter their scouter readings with special attacks, what would be the difference compared to what Goku did agaisnt Radditz? Why the surprise? It only makes sense if they can't.

Vegeta's BP was 18.000, and his Gyarik-Ho could rival Goku's Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha (24.000), so his Gyarik-Ho should be at 24.000 as well (from his Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha, I believe that if the multiplier of Kaio-ken is greater that that of the Kamehameha, the Kamehameha takes the multiplier of the Kaio-ken). However, that's a less than x2 increase, while both Goku's Kamehameha & Gohan's Masenko were over x2 stronger. Nappa also said that his mouth blast was his strongest attack. So, I can't help but think that Vegeta & Nappa can amplify their attacks, but not by much.

Goku's was constantly being hurt by his imperfect Kaioken x3. Its shown consistently in the series that when a fighter is hurt their power decreases (this includes scouter readings). By the time of the beam struggle, Goku was already probably already hurt enough for his power to have decreased enough for his Kaioken x3 to be a match for Vegeta's power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, I disagree about that. That would make Gyarik-Ho no different from normal ki blasts It's stated to be similar to the Kamehameha, and what's special about the Kamehameha is that it concentrates all the power into a single point, amplifying the ki.

[Darkprince410]

Ki sensing is completely different from scouters' readings.

Ki sensing is based on instinct and felling, which is why they can't translate what they feel into numbers and why they can feel the Ki of the opponent much more accurately when the opponent is actually using it.

There's literally no other option that makes sense other than Vegeta and Nappa being unable to fool scouters' readings while on Earth. Kiwi was completely sure of his win against Vegeta just because his scouter reading indicated that Vegeta was a few thousands of units weaker than him, and completely shocked when Vegeta increased it.

There's nothing said or shown to suggest that ki sensing works any differently than how a scouter works, other than that it's just a precise reading of current levels. What could fool a scouter should fool someone that senses ki, and there's nothing that says otherwise. Vegeta getting rid of his scouter, acting that his ability to sense ki would allow him to escape the need for instrumentality, suggests that he lost nothing from doing so.

[rereboy]

Well, I disagree about that. That would make Gyarik-Ho no different from normal ki blasts It's stated to be similar to the Kamehameha, and what's special about the Kamehameha is that it concentrates all the power into a single point, amplifying the ki.

The point of a special attack is that it allows the fighter to use their power more effectively. Different attacks, different types of effectiveness and active usage of power. Just like a different type of punch can be much more effective than another type of punch.

However, changing the power level and the scouter reading is something completely separate from doing a special attack.

Like I said, if it was thanks to specials attacks that they could change their power and their scouter reading, it wouldn't make sense for Radditz to be shocked by that when Goku did it, nor it would make sense for Vegeta to make note of that. It would be normal, instead of abnormal.

(And it also wouldn't make sense for Kiwi to be sure that he would be able to kill Vegeta if he knew that Vegeta had the ability to use special attacks that could increase their power and scouter reading significantly.)

[Kaboom]

Then maybe, regardless of the PL number behind it, Nappa's ultimate attack would just pack enough "punch" to hurt Goku even with the power difference between them.

[rereboy]

There's nothing said or shown to suggest that ki sensing works any differently than how a scouter works, other than that it's just a precise reading of current levels. What could fool a scouter should fool someone that senses ki, and there's nothing that says otherwise. Vegeta getting rid of his scouter, acting that his ability to sense ki would allow him to escape the need for instrumentality, suggests that he lost nothing from doing so.

You mean, other than being pretty much a logical conclusion consistent with the manga?

Like I said, everything implies and basically tells us that the saiyans thought that being able to change their scouters readings was something very abnormal and something that they had never seen before. Therefore, it only makes sense for them to not be able to do it on Earth.

However, we also see that the Earthlings can actually get a better grasp on how strong the Saiyans were once they started to use their power. This seems pretty inconsistent, until we realize that there is nothing to suggest that Ki sensing has to work exactly like the scouter readings.

Conclusion? They don't work exactly the same way. Scouters pick up exactly the same level whether the fighter is on his passive state or in active state, but Ki sensing has a better graps on how strong exactly someone is if that someone is actually using their power. However, scouters are completely fooled by someone suppressing their power and someone with Ki sensing, like we saw in the series can sometimes tell when someone is hiding power, even though he can't tell how much.

By the way, Vegeta actually regrets destroying his scouter on Namek at one point, stating that he might have rushed it, if I remember correctly.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Like I said, if it was thanks to specials attacks that they could change their power and their scouter reading, it wouldn't make sense for Radditz to be shocked by that when Goku did it, nor it would make sense for Vegeta to make note of that. It would be normal, instead of abnormal.

(And it also wouldn't make sense for Kiwi to be sure that he would be able to kill Vegeta if he knew that Vegeta had the ability to use special attacks that could increase their power and scouter reading significantly.)

But what I've been saying is that Vegeta, Nappa, and the majority of Freeza's forces in general can't increase their power significantly through special attacks like Gyarik-Ho. Raditz was shocked because Goku's power went from 400s to 900s, which is a huge increase. It could just mean that they can't make huge increases through special attacks, not that they can't make any increases at all.

[rereboy]

Like I said, if it was thanks to specials attacks that they could change their power and their scouter reading, it wouldn't make sense for Radditz to be shocked by that when Goku did it, nor it would make sense for Vegeta to make note of that. It would be normal, instead of abnormal.

(And it also wouldn't make sense for Kiwi to be sure that he would be able to kill Vegeta if he knew that Vegeta had the ability to use special attacks that could increase their power and scouter reading significantly.)

But what I've been saying is that Vegeta, Nappa, and the majority of Freeza's forces in general can't increase their power significantly through special attacks like Gyarik-Ho. Raditz was shocked because Goku's power went from 400s to 900s, which is a huge increase. It could just mean that they can't make huge increases through special attacks, not that they can't make any increases at all.

I understood your point. However, I believe that the Saiyans make a point of saying that they are surprised by the fact that the reading changed. They never stated that the amount of the change is way past what is considered a normal variation. They seem genuinely surprised and shocked that a change occurred. Hence why they state that they "can change their power levels" with surprise.

For example, Radditz was even surprised to see Goku's and Piccolo's scouter reading change after they removed their heavy clothes. His exact words, according to Viz: "What? His power... Jumping to 408...!" This was only a small variation in the scouter reading, one that he should expect at any time according to what you said. However, he is genuinely surprised by it, even though he immediately realizes that their readings changed thanks to the removal of their heavy clothes and as such he doesn't worry about it. And, when Nappa and Vegeta were about to fight the Earthlings, Vegeta's exact words according to Viz were: "These slugs vary their power to suit the battle. Those numbers are worthless". So, once again, they imply that the variation in the readings, not the quantity of the variation, is abnormal.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Chapter: 223 (DBZ 29), P8.1-3, P10.4
Context: Vegeta was astonished at how the Earthlings could raise their powers. This time it was through Gohan’s Masenko attack.
Kuririn: “Is that G…Goku’s son…!? Wh…what an incredible ki…!!!”
Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”
Nappa: “2,800, eh?!!”
*Nappa blocks the attack*
Vegeta: “His power dropped all the way down. It seems he used it all up just now.”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P5.2
Context: after Goku and Ginyu fight a bit
Ginyu: “If you’ve gotten confident from that brief exchange just now, I’ll soon take you down a notch…The truth is that I am also the type of human that can freely alter their battle power…!”

Vegeta sees that they can drastically change their battle power, and Ginyu says he can freely alter his power. So, my guess is that Vegeta & Nappa can suppress their power, but not freely, and they can increase their power through special attacks, but not drastically.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah seriously. Nappa being physically tough and durable has nothing to do with the fact that he's matching Goku's speed. Furthermore I feel it should be obvious at this point that physical strength pales in comparison to Ki. Physical strength only matters when the user power level is over the opponents.

[rereboy]

Chapter: 223 (DBZ 29), P8.1-3, P10.4
Context: Vegeta was astonished at how the Earthlings could raise their powers. This time it was through Gohan’s Masenko attack.
Kuririn: “Is that G…Goku’s son…!? Wh…what an incredible ki…!!!”
Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”
Nappa: “2,800, eh?!!”
*Nappa blocks the attack*
Vegeta: “His power dropped all the way down. It seems he used it all up just now.”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P5.2
Context: after Goku and Ginyu fight a bit
Ginyu: “If you’ve gotten confident from that brief exchange just now, I’ll soon take you down a notch…The truth is that I am also the type of human that can freely alter their battle power…!”

Vegeta sees that they can drastically change their battle power, and Ginyu says he can freely alter his power. So, my guess is that Vegeta & Nappa can suppress their power, but not freely, and they can increase their power through special attacks, but not drastically.

You are reading too much into those exact words, in my opinion, and without a complete context.

In your first quote, you are forgetting that Vegeta had detected Goku's power of 5000 just a few moments ago and was reflecting on the possibility that, since they could vary their power levels, the reading of 5000 could be just for starters. His exact words according to Viz are: "It may be. These fools seem to be able to vary their power. Meaning... 5000 could be just for starters...". And shortly after that, Gohan increases his power to 2800 proving than he can not only vary his power, but he can vary it greatly, which is exactly what Vegeta was contemplating regarding Goku a few moments ago. Hence, what he says.

As for your second quote, it simply can not be interpreted as something to support your opinion. What Ginyu says has nothing to with quantity at all, he says "freely" as in "at will".

In short, I think that your interpretation is inconsistent with what happens. I think mine fits right with what happens, with how the Saiyans act and react on Earth and with how Kiwi, Zarbon, and Dodoria react to Vegeta and those Namekians on Namek. I think yours however doesn't fit as well with all those statements, actions and reactions.

For example, Kiwi would never be as sure as he was that he was going to win if Vegeta could increase his power significantly with special attacks. As soon as he looked at Vegeta's reading he was sure of his win.

At most, I could admit your reasoning if you said that their variation is something very small, something that hardly never matters. But even that seems inconsistent with how surprised Radditz was just to see Goku's and Piccolo's reading increase slightly after they removed their heavy clothing. He clearly wasn't expecting to see a change in their power at all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Maybe Raditz didn't believe that weaklings could change their power, or maybe, he wasn't expecting their power to change just by taking out their clothes.

[rereboy]

Maybe Raditz didn't believe that weaklings could change their power, or maybe, he wasn't expecting their power to change just by taking out their clothes.

I don't believe that is the natural and logical conclusion of everything that we see in the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see the issue with Raditz being surprised with their power rising. It's not like he is astonished like he was when Goku fired the Kamehameha.

Besides, unlike Nappa & Vegeta, Raditz didn't show any signs of changing his power. Maybe even he couldn't change his power at all.

[Kakashi]

Vegeta and Nappa also can't feel ki and yet when Goku used Kaioken on Nappa, Vegeta noticed that his power got doubled

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, Raditz did say he was going to increase the power in his attacks, but I'm guessing that's just referring to effort.

As for Kiwi, it's possible he's never had the chance to see Vegeta's Gyarikku Ho in action. The only reason he really thought he'd defeat Vegeta is because his Battle Power was less than it was supposed to be.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Increasing one's base power and attack amplification are 2 different things. I think anyone can amplify their BP with a strong attack.

[rereboy]

I don't see the issue with Raditz being surprised with their power rising. It's not like he is astonished like he was when Goku fired the Kamehameha.

Besides, unlike Nappa & Vegeta, Raditz didn't show any signs of changing his power. Maybe even he couldn't change his power at all.

Why should they be surprised if its a normal thing instead of a abnormal things? You are basically arguing that everyone in the universe can do it, not just some fighters like the Earthlings and the Namekians...

Increasing one's base power and attack amplification are 2 different things. I think anyone can amplify their BP with a strong attack.

They why are they surprised when they see the Earthlings' readings vary? Goku's kamehameha agaisnt Radditz wouldn't look or read any different than any special attack done by the saiyans.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why should they be surprised if its a normal thing instead of a abnormal things? You are basically arguing that everyone in the universe can do it, not just some fighters like the Earthlings and the Namekians...

No, what I'm saying is that there are people that can't change their BP at all (like Raditz), people that can change their BP, but not drastically (like Vegeta & Nappa), and people that can freely change their BP (like the Z-Senshi).