Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[TheGreatness25]

Ugh, this thing continues. This has been going on forever.
I choose to love both versions. I just look at them as two separate entities. I love the Japanese version because it's great with a very good feel to it. It's an anime that I love for the same reasons everyone else does. As for the dub, I love it because despite all of their "changes" and whatnot, it's still a good show. I would rank dubbed DB/Z above any other anime that I've ever seen. Now I love my Cowboy Bebops and Lupins and all that, but I say that even the dubbed DB/Z trumps them. It's still a good show and the voices (some good, some bad) and music (which was actually pretty good, but sounded like garbage because of the 'instruments' or 'instrument' that was used) cannot change that!

I could never hate the dub. It's impossible for me. How could I hate something that I loved so much as a kid? Say what you will, but if it wasn't for the dub, the majority of people on this site and god knows how many other fans would never even know about the show. For that reason alone, I could never turn my back on it. As a kid, I never gave a damn about the canon or the changes that were made. I still loved it. It's forever been imbedded in me to love the show and I can't just turn my back on it. As a kid, without having really seen the Japanese version, I would be involved in conversations about how the Japanese is better and it shows nudity and they curse and how the American version sucks by comparison. Well I grew out of that and learned to enjoy both versions. I feel like when I hear people arguing about how much the dub sucks, it's like when I was a kid trying to be cool and showing off how much I knew about the Japanese version.

How can you not enjoy the dub on any level? I mean really. People complain that the story is different somehow because of the dub. That's funny because I have seen the dub first, then the original. I can honestly tell you that there was never any point where I was like, "WAIT A MINUTE!!! That never happened in the dub!" Do they change around some things? Sure. But the things they change around are so insignificant. The core story is the same. Yes, the dub took away several references to Japanese pop culture out of their version. Yes, FUNimation has had some god awful moments, but the core storyline stayed the same. People complain about name changes. The dredded "H" word. Okay. Maybe because in the U.S. they would not be able to say a word like "Satan." So what? Go get the DVDs which are uncensored and there is no name change. The big complaints of name changes, story changes, etc. are so insignificant that they're laughable. The music being replaced, sure, that's a biggie. But the dub music is honestly not that bad. It's all relatively catchy music, just needs to be executed with an orchestra instead of a synthesizer. That's my only complain about the music. Then there's the voices. Everyone hated how Freeza sounded. I have no problems with how Freeza sounded. But that's people's preferences.

I just can't believe that as a kid, most people were like, "OMG! This is awesome!" Nobody sat there saying, "The story is great but the voices and music suck! Wait a minute! Maybe the original is great! Turns out it is!!!" Just get over this stupid little, "I'm such a good fan, look how much I know! And I don't watch your stupid dubbed version, I'm cooler than that! I watch the original! Yeah!!!" If you only like the Japanese version, great. Enjoy it. But stop running around shoving it down the dub fans' throats. If there's one thing I can't stand it's when someone tries to shove something down another's throat. I'm sure fans of the dub do it too, but the Japanese version fans are horrible at it. God forbid you say you like the dub. Well it's 2013 and there has been so much DBZ put out that ANY fan could have been exposed to both. Yes, there are still people that prefer the dub. People just can't believe that someone would prefer the dub over the original. Well it happens. Get over it. I am as much of a fan as anyone. I have 10 million versions of the show. I have the manga in both English and Japanese (yes it's official too, not downloaded from online). I have so much DBZ crap, that if I put it up on Ebay, I could make a small fortune. But I will say that I like the dub. Do I like it as much as the original? Probably not. But I don't hate the dub. Never have and never will. And the beautiful part is that I don't have to choose! I have both available.

I just can't believe this is still a topic in 2013. Especially after FUNimation has tried to move on. FUNimation released a set with the original Japanese score. Then FUNimation redubbed the damned thing. But it's never enough. Oh well, I never needed any of that from them. I like their original attempt just fine.

[VegettoEX]

There are so many great points, so many great things I want to say, and so many I just won't. That's part of my problem, and I take full responsibility for it. The thing is, I have a lot to say, but I'm just so god damn apathetic about it that I really hate myself when I get involved, good points are brought up, and I just don't have it in me to contribute any more. I just don't. I'm really sorry .

That being said...

How can you not enjoy the dub on any level? I mean really.

I was not a young kid when "season three" debuted (I mean, I'd argue that being in high school is still a young kid, but I wasn't running home from school to watch cartoons if that's a better description). I was already running my site for two years at that point. All I received in the mail were two VHS tapes that I was convinced were going to be laughed out of Cartoon Network headquarters, and I saw absolutely nothing of any redeeming value for any period of time that I continued to spot-check it going forward to its completion. It was an irrelevant product to me that did absolutely nothing to draw me back in and keep me along as a viewer. It wasn't for me at all.

I can put myself in your situation ("show I watched" / "show I liked" / "fun to go back and watch" / "version I may even still prefer"), but from what you've just said I don't think you're willing to do the opposite.

Nobody sat there saying, "The story is great but the voices and music suck! Wait a minute! Maybe the original is great! Turns out it is!!!"

Yes, we did. You just described my entire generation of fans as a collective whole, and plenty of people that came after us that made The Great Switch™.

[Ringworm128]

I too generally prefer a dub to be accurate but I base my judging of quality on what's enjoyable not what's accurate. By even changing the voices from Japanese to English you're already "ruining" the show Toei made so I don't see that much harm in changing a few more things since it in no way affects the original. If you want accuracy that's fine but stop acting as if it's some law. And the whole "Toei made the show" excuse is why I think it's all based on selective BS. Toei made the show so they have pretty much every right to do what they want with it including letting Funimation adapt it even if it's just to get a few extra bucks. "The anime is it's own thing. Toei made it themselves so it's okay, adaptations don't always have to be accurate y'know. The dub? Nope, there's no way that's it's own thing, even though Funimation made it themselves with Toei's approval it's using the DBZ anime so it doesn't count just like how turkey soup doesn't count if you use the left over turkey from Thanksgiving. It says on the first page of the big invisible anime rule book that dubs HAVE TO be super accurate!"

[Herms]

Nobody sat there saying, "The story is great but the voices and music suck! Wait a minute! Maybe the original is great! Turns out it is!!!"

Well, I was introduced to the series through the Funi dub, but as soon as I found the Viz manga it was like night and day. It was instantly clear which version of the series was superior. Admittedly it isn't quite a fair comparison, since the Japanese anime itself often holds up very poorly in comparison to the manga, but still, once I encountered another version of the series there was no going back to the Funi version. This didn't happen with other series where I started out with the dub, even ones where I eventually came to prefer the Japanese version. I think the Funi dub doesn't stand up well, either in comparison to the Japanese version, or in comparison to other English dubs of anime.

I don't say this to be mean. It's my opinion of the Funi dub, and I don't see why I shouldn't express it whenever the subject of the Funi dub comes up.

By even changing the voices from Japanese to English you're already "ruining" the show Toei made so I don't see that much harm in changing a few more things since it in no way affects the original.

It may not affect the original itself, but it certainly continues to affect the English-speaking DB fandom. We still have to constantly explain whether this or that particular element is actually found in the original series, or whether it was only created by some guys in Texas years after the series had finished airing. We still have to explain, over and over again, very basic things like how Goku is motivated primarily by his desire to fight and is not actually a do-gooder prone to making big heroic speeches about how he's the "hope of the universe". We still have to explain that there are no such characters as the "Arcosians", that there is no legend about the Super Saiyan prior to Goku destroying himself due to his inability to control his own power, and that the character called "God" is called "God" because he's God, rather than some dude whose name happens to be "Kami". We still have to explain that Freeza isn't a woman, sometimes.

Kanzenshuu is explicitly a site centering around the original Japanese version of the series, but we still have to constantly explain to people what the Japanese version of the series is actually like. The Funi dub affects us in that way.

[JulieYBM]

How can you not enjoy the dub on any level? I mean really.

I grew up with FUNimation's dubs, but I also grew up. I experienced and learned to like films with great acting and music, like Amadeus, Mr. Holland's Opus, and Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan so how can I not develop a greater understanding of the epitome of the different arts? How could I call myself an artist and art appreciator if I partook in watching dubs? When I switched over to watching the series with subtitles it instantly became clear to me that what I was watching before was not Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is a Japanese cartoon starring Nozawa Masako, therefore it occured to me I had never watched Dragon Ball before. That struck me again, especially considering the years I spent railing against 4Kids' replacing of sound effects, music, Japanese text, and violence.

I do not enjoy it either intellectually or on any other level. It's a blight on the franchise and fandom I love, especially when discussions become less about the great works Shueisha and Toei created and more about what one of a dozen other licensees did.

[Looneygamemaster]

How could I call myself an artist and art appreciator if I partook in watching dubs?

A dub is as much of a work of art as the anime itself.

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan dancing was quite funny to some people. So it did have comedy. Gohan dream was funny mixed with a nightmare. So yes the scene is gag like and the song matches it. It's your opinion that the scene isn't funny. The song matches the scene corny and funny-ness. Kikuchi use gag songs for a gag scene. Once again please provide a better example then some gag scenes using gag music. As you're just complaining that the scene was bad. Think of it like this. Bad scene and Bad music. Either way the music matched the scene.

The Gohan dancing scene was in movie 4 not movie 3.

Umm...ok...your point?

[90sDBZ]

Gohan dancing was quite funny to some people. So it did have comedy. Gohan dream was funny mixed with a nightmare. So yes the scene is gag like and the song matches it. It's your opinion that the scene isn't funny. The song matches the scene corny and funny-ness. Kikuchi use gag songs for a gag scene. Once again please provide a better example then some gag scenes using gag music. As you're just complaining that the scene was bad. Think of it like this. Bad scene and Bad music. Either way the music matched the scene.

The Gohan dancing scene was in movie 4 not movie 3.

Umm...ok...your point?

My point is that this entire time you've been thinking of a completely different scene to the one I'm talking about so your argument is invalid. There was no humour corny or non-corny in the movie 3 scene.

[penguintruth]

It doesn't follow that because Toei made changes from the manga that it's okay for Funimation to make changes for the English dub. There is not a line of logic there.

Toei made the show. Funimation is not dubbing the manga. They're dubbing the show. They have to stay loyal to the show regardless of inconsistencies the show has with the manga. And certainly it wasn't as though they improved the adaption of the manga by changing things so dramatically.

Any absurd, abstract attempt to catch me in a logical fallacy is futile and laughable. My reasoning is sound.

[Super Sonic]

I think a lot of guys just watch the dub like they watch US cartoons with their anime senses off. For those wondering what I mean, a lot of anime fans watch anime, particularly anime dubs differently than they watch American cartoons and tend to notice things more or bash things that happen in in an anime dub, but ignore it in an American cartoon. For example, once heard some girls say they didn't like the dub of the second Cardcaptor Sakura movie because Showron sounded like "Izzy from Digimon". I asked them if they watched PPG, and after responding yes if it bothered them that you can hear hints of Tommy in Buttercup's voice and they said they didn't think about it or notice. Don't know how it is with foreigners. If any Englishmen are reading this, do you watch any DBZ dub differently than you watch Danger Mouse, Angelina Ballerina, or Kipper? Or any Australians, do you watch said dub differently than you watch Blinky Bill?

[90sDBZ]

I think a lot of guys just watch the dub like they watch US cartoons with their anime senses off. For those wondering what I mean, a lot of anime fans watch anime, particularly anime dubs differently than they watch American cartoons and tend to notice things more or bash things that happen in in an anime dub, but ignore it in an American cartoon. For example, once heard some girls say they didn't like the dub of the second Cardcaptor Sakura movie because Showron sounded like "Izzy from Digimon". I asked them if they watched PPG, and after responding yes if it bothered them that you can hear hints of Tommy in Buttercup's voice and they said they didn't think about it or notice. Don't know how it is with foreigners. If any Englishmen are reading this, do you watch any DBZ dub differently than you watch Danger Mouse, Angelina Ballerina, or Kipper? Or any Australians, do you watch said dub differently than you watch Blinky Bill?

I'm from the UK and I tend to look at Dragonball as being in its own category rather than strictly an anime or cartoon. I don't really watch much other anime apart from One Piece and occasionally anime from my childhood like Pokemon and Digimon. Really I've always thought of Dragonball as being this awesome unique show/series. Even among other anime it's pretty unique. I have however seen plenty of people online who say that DBZ is the only anime they prefer to watch in English. For the most part I actually prefer to watch everything in English with the exception of old Martial Arts movies which sound awkward when dubbed.

[Gogeta 00]

“It doesn't follow that because Toei made changes from the manga that it's okay for Funimation to make changes for the English dub. There is not a line of logic there.”

Again this is not the point at all. You are correct, there is no complete logical inference what so ever in that statement, at least not without adding some ridiculous and unjustified premises to make the conclusion “it is okay for Funimation to make changes for the English dub” follow. I have not made any attempt to do so. Considering that this isn’t the point in question you aren’t actually responding to the problem that Kid Buu and I brought up, you are rather responding to an entirely separate piece of reasoning that hasn’t even been attempted to be made. Needless to say such a response is worthless. Missing the point gets you absolutely nowhere.

The point is that your argument, if it is sound, logically necessitates a separate conclusion which makes it impossible for any fan of the anime, whether sub or dub, to be considered a fan of Dragon Ball. Since this is the case you cannot consistently hold the following two assertions to be true at the same time:

1. "If a person is a fan of a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story, then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball."

2. “A fan of the Japanese version of the Dragon Ball anime is a fan of Dragon Ball.”

Since there are such changes mentioned in (1) included in the Japanese version it is logically impossible for both (1) and (2) to be true at the same time.

Your original argument depended entirely on (1) to arrive at your desired conclusion that a fan of the dub is not a fan of Dragon Ball. But if (1) is true then it must be admitted that since there are changes in both versions which undermine the author’s original story then no fan of the anime is a fan of Dragon Ball. You could try to make any exceptions for either version by trying to justify the changes, but this doesn’t solve the problem. What matters is that the changes are there in both versions, why the changes are there does not stop your original argument from generating the conclusion that a fan of the Japanese anime isn’t a fan of Dragon Ball. If you still want to hold on to (1), which your original argument depends on, then whether you like it or not it has to be true that no fan of the anime is a fan of Dragon Ball. This is simply the way that logic works. If (1) is true, then since the sentence “the Japanese version contains changes which undermine the author’s original story” is also true the conclusion that no fan of the Japanese version is a fan of Dragon Ball is guaranteed to be true (this is the logical rule of inference known as modus ponens, one of the most straight forward and basic rules of logical inference). The only way that it isn’t guaranteed to be true is if (1) is false, and if you admit that (1) is false then you have admitted that your original argument is unsound.

By the way here is what logical soundness actually means: “an argument is sound if and only if it is both deductively valid (i.e. the premises, if true, guarantee the truth of the conclusion) and the premises are in fact true”. So when you say that your reasoning is sound you are either misunderstanding what it means for a piece of reasoning to be sound, or you are admitting that (1), since it is the first premise of your argument, is true. And again if you admit that (1) is true then it is true as a matter of logical necessity that a fan of the Japanese version of the Dragon Ball anime is not a fan of the Dragon Ball anime. So just by claiming that the reasoning is sound you are committed to the truth of that conclusion. But given that you certainly do not appear to believe that it is not the case that a fan of the Japanese version is a fan of Dragon Ball you cannot consistently hold that your original argument was sound.

Whether you like it or not you have two choices. You can continue to insist that your argument is sound or you can hold that a fan of the Japanese version is a fan of Dragon Ball. It is not logically possible for you to hold on to both. If you want to qualify sub fans as fans of Dragon Ball you cannot consistently claim that your original argument is sound.

“Any absurd, abstract attempt to catch me in a logical fallacy is futile and laughable.”

Aside from being rude, myopic, and dismissive this is no response whatsoever to my attack on your original argument. You have done nothing more than simply assert that my response is an abstract and absurd attempt to catch you in a logical fallacy and that it is futile and laughable. You have provided absolutely no support for this, you have just said it. Essentially what you have done here is no better than a youtube comment such as “you are obviously dumb and your response is stupid, thus you are wrong”.

Please explain to me what absurdities you identified in my post. If they are in fact legitimate absurdities I will grant them to you.

How is my response at all futile? I have used logic to identify your reasoning and expose a problem that it leads to. My response was intended to show the flaw in your reasoning, how is applying the laws of logic to do so futile? Responding to arguments and making arguments is an exercise in logic, so how is it futile to use logic to respond to arguments?

Sure you may find my response laughable. Whatever, that is your business and I could care less how humorous you may have found it. What I care about is the logical consequence of your argument that makes it impossible to qualify any fan of the Dragon Ball anime as a fan of Dragon Ball. You finding it laughable does not mean the problem isn’t there, it is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. But by all means laugh until you’re blue in the face.

[Mewzard]

It doesn't follow that because Toei made changes from the manga that it's okay for Funimation to make changes for the English dub. There is not a line of logic there.

Toei made the show. Funimation is not dubbing the manga. They're dubbing the show. They have to stay loyal to the show regardless of inconsistencies the show has with the manga. And certainly it wasn't as though they improved the adaption of the manga by changing things so dramatically.

Any absurd, abstract attempt to catch me in a logical fallacy is futile and laughable. My reasoning is sound.

Honestly, of all the Toei anime I've seen based off of manga (aka adaptions)...most of their original material (the filler) and deviations (changes in story, design, and such) I've found to hurt the product more than help. Now, music and voice acting, Toei knows how to do...but even if I watch the anime first, I find myself groaning before I discover it's filler due to the drop in quality of writing (not the quality of animation...which Toei is notoriously cheap with).

Toei's worst though, is when they think rewriting characters backstories and personalities is a good idea (much like Funimation after them with DBZ...Dragon Ball avoided much of it...but oh lord did Saint Seiya get slashed backstories and characters behaving wrong...not to mention them jumping the gun and creating filler characters that would mess up later relationships). Fist of the North Star also got hurt by Toei moving things around too much (the censorship and poor animation budget also hurt). Shin went from dying 10 chapters in to 22 episodes...it didn't need to be dragged out that long.

Now, I love Toei with their own original works (Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Digimon)...but they are lazy and cheap often when it comes to adaptations.

Not a justification for what Funi did with the old dub (Once I got the Kai dub I never looked back), but just that Toei is just as guilty at altering crap in a series.

Where others grew up and moved away to the sub because of the dub's problems...I saw potential that it could be done right, and waited for that dreamed redub to come. Kai gave me what I wanted (but I also got into the sub with Z, so it works fine).

Sadly, what Funi did with Z at the time was the standard for dubbing kids shows (still better than the terrible dubs 90s hyperviolent OVAs got, but still). In the years to come, we finally started getting good dubs. Too bad anime's not quite as popular as it once was here, because we're getting the quality we deserve more often than before.

[VegettoEX]

Gogeta 00 brings up a lot of great stuff diving into actual logic and emotionless (in a good way!) analysis. I wish I had it in me to debate more that way and with you. Like I said earlier, though, I just don't. It kills me, but I just don't. I find it detracts from my overall enjoyment of the franchise to do so (English dub discussions, that is), and I don't like doing the kind of stuff that makes me not enjoy it all. I always regret getting into it. Ya' know? I hope ya' know!

I grew up with FUNimation's dubs, but I also grew up. I experienced and learned to like films with great acting and music, like Amadeus, Mr. Holland's Opus, and Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan so how can I not develop a greater understanding of the epitome of the different arts? How could I call myself an artist and art appreciator if I partook in watching dubs? When I switched over to watching the series with subtitles it instantly became clear to me that what I was watching before was not Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is a Japanese cartoon starring Nozawa Masako, therefore it occured to me I had never watched Dragon Ball before. That struck me again, especially considering the years I spent railing against 4Kids' replacing of sound effects, music, Japanese text, and violence.

I do not enjoy it either intellectually or on any other level. It's a blight on the franchise and fandom I love, especially when discussions become less about the great works Shueisha and Toei created and more about what one of a dozen other licensees did.

I'm gonna say this to you because (1) I like you and I hope you'll listen to me, (2) you remind me a bit of me maybe a decade/more ago, and (3) because dammit someone needs to.

You're getting out of control. This post exemplifies it. You're writing needlessly complex sentences. You're getting incredibly rude. You're getting incredibly condescending. I'm not reading your posts anymore. No-one is. There's no humility anymore. It's painfully faux-dramatic. There's not even the slightest twinge of humor in there to at least hang onto for some kind of irony. You don't add anything to these discussions anymore. There's no hint of enjoyment for the franchise. It's just principle after principle with no love.

It's awful. I can't do it anymore, Jacob. I just can't. Don't go down this route. I can tell you from experience you don't want to do it.

[penguintruth]

Gogeta 00, that was a lot that said a little.

You still cannot defend the position that a person is a fan of Dragon Ball Z, the 1989 TV series based on Akira Toriyama's manga, with faults and all, if they're a fan of the Funimation English dub that radically changes the show, even though the TV series makes changes from the manga. Toei created the show. Funimation didn't. Toei had to pad the story because it was catching up to the manga, Funimation didn't have to radically alter the script. The changes from the manga to the Japanese version anime were far more necessary than the changes from the Japanese version of the TV show to the English version of the TV show. My logic is far more sound, albeit not perfect, whereas your argument is just walls of text with the purpose of blinding me in a blizzard of terminology until I surrender.

I'm dismissive because your argument needs dismissing.

[VegettoEX]

Toei had to pad the story because it was catching up to the manga, Funimation didn't have to radically alter the script.

I agree with your underlying premise and yet I still find plenty of faults with your logic.

Toei didn't "have" to do anything. They could have delayed the production of the TV series until the manga was further along so it would never have caught up. They could have taken extended breaks between major story arcs. They could have exclusively done filler arcs instead of filler material during canonical/manga material. There's no end to the things they COULD HAVE done instead of what they DID do. Someone more creative than me can probably come up with a dozen more examples, including some that other shows may have actually put into practice. Do they all make financial sense? No. Of course not. But they could have done them.

[penguintruth]

It was still their prerogative. They were given the show to animate. I don't recall Funimation being part of the production of the show. And they certainly didn't drastically alter the characters as Funimation did. How is this even a debate?

[90sDBZ]

Gogeta 00, that was a lot that said a little.

You still cannot defend the position that a person is a fan of Dragon Ball Z, the 1989 TV series based on Akira Toriyama's manga, with faults and all, if they're a fan of the Funimation English dub that radically changes the show, even though the TV series makes changes from the manga. Toei created the show. Funimation didn't. Toei had to pad the story because it was catching up to the manga, Funimation didn't have to radically alter the script. The changes from the manga to the Japanese version anime were far more necessary than the changes from the Japanese version of the TV show to the English version of the TV show. My logic is far more sound, albeit not perfect, whereas your argument is just walls of text with the purpose of blinding me in a blizzard of terminology until I surrender.

I'm dismissive because your argument needs dismissing.

Toei created the show but they didn't create Dragonball or its story. Dragonball existed before Toei adapted it so therefore it could just as easily be argued that somebody who watches the Japanese anime but hasn't read the Manga isn't a fan of the true original and most pure Dragonball. And filler wasn't the only change they made. What about how they screwed up continuity for the sake of making Goku's escape from Namek more suspenseful? Isn't that an insult to Toriyama as if to say his story wasn't suspenseful enough? And there were other pointless changes like how they had Dodoria kill Cargo. They even went as far as physically changing the Namekians by giving them 5 digits on each hand instead of 3. Funimation never went so far as making visual changes apart from the unavoidable censorship. And I think it's safe to say that the drop in quality of character artwork from Manga to Anime was just as bad as the initial drop in acting quality from Japanese to English. And what about how Toei manipulated the show in a way that would help them make money from toys? Hate on Funimation all you want but Toei's hands are far from blood-free.

[VegettoEX]

I hate that I'm doing this (continuing discussing it, 'cuz it hurts my fandom soul!), but here goes.

What penguintruth and I are getting at is, yes, Toei made changes. We all acknowledge that.

And ya' know what? Plenty of us do talk quite a bit about how extensive some of those changes can be at times! Herms mentions it a lot. kei has been championing the Toriyama!Goku vs Koyama!Goku changes a bit recently in light of fans complaining about Goku in Battle of Gods. These discussions are out there. They are. Especially here on Kanzenshuu.

That being said, I think -- and here's where I agree with penguintruth and where I toss aside actual, mathematical logic and focus on gut feelings -- it's patently ridiculous to lump in Toei's changes with FUNimation's changes. They're nowhere on the same level. No comparison. I do think you have to cut Toei slack in the original production department because of what it was and how it was and when it was.

And sure, you can turn that right back around on me and say, "Oh, well FUNimation was just doing what they had to do for the time and so on and so forth..."........ but I don't really buy it. There's just too much proof to the contrary with other contemporary shows that the tide was already well-changing if not well-changed. It didn't have to be that way.

It also totally hurts my case to admit that, so I'd never admit that! I don't believe it anyway, so I can at least sleep well at night in my stubborn ways.

There are better ways to phrase what I'm trying to get at. I know there are. I'm not doing a good enough job explaining it. I sadly will have to leave it to someone else to use me as a jumping point and be far more eloquent with it than I could ever be.

[Mewzard]

But like Funimation, Toei got the rights to make money off of a franchise, and weren't told NOT to do certain things they did. Toei didn't demand Saban perfectly dub Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger when they licensed it. Saban turned it into Mighty Morphin Power Rangers with far more damage to the source material than Funimation ever did.

Unless you're talking the actual SOURCE material, I feel an adaptation is just as responsible as a dub in whether it holds accurate or not. The 80s TMNT Cartoon was a terrible adaptation of the awesomely violent comic it was based on for instance.

I don't think Toei had to do half the changes they did, or in the way they did them. Toei is notoriously lazy at adapting for the sake of easy money. They hate spending money, so they'll find a way to either cheaply animate or repeat stock footage ad nauseum to save some cash.

It doesn't justify what Funimation does...but Toei does little better with their own work in preserving the dignity of series they do (I have to emphasize again...Dragon Ball is one of their better adaptations. They've messed up series worse...that said, the producer of Saint Seiya for the first 73 episodes was put on Dragon Ball Z to teach him how not to overbudget a series, so take that as you will).