Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:58 pm

ABED wrote:I am a wrestling fans, and there's no way Cena sells that much merch if he doesn't have a sizable fanbase.

The shit eating grin on Vegeta's face was great, but not badass. How he destroyed 19 was badass.

The genkidama was weakened but that's still a potent attack, especially after everything he had been through. To survive all that was definitely badass.
Not saying he doesn't. I'm saying that he got a lot more haters than a babyface should. I'm also saying that People buy his shirts just to hate him(Doing bad stuff to the shirts)...which backfires to be honest. Don't know why they do it.

Image This is better than Image Image BY FAR. Just saying =/. Once again the Ganki Dami being weaken lessen the scene as it was predictable that he would survive. You seem not to understand when people like the actions of what they see they'll cheer. Once again cheering villains is not rare no more. I don't know why you find it odd.

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:08 pm

No, there is absolutely no way that people doing bad things to Cena's merch accounts for why he outsells everyone by a wide margin. I've heard the boos, they have a lot of bass, meaning it's males. The female and children love the guy. I see the crowd, and the signs and t-shirts on the kids suggest that they are his audience. I've been to shows and it's not true that people buying his shirts just to destroy them accounts for his merch sales. He doesn't just sell merch, kids go to the arenas to see him.

You say it was predictable? You had a 50/50 shot of being right about Vegeta surviving. Congrats, but it wasn't a forgone conclusion that he would've survived. It was hardly a stretch to think Goku's strongest attack would've finished him off however weakened it was. He was also weakened, which also could've cancelled out the weakness of the Genkidama. Surviving that requires him being tough. Admirable and badass.

Murdering people and smirking isn't badass. Vegeta's an insecure whinny little punk. Goku is way more badass.

I didn't mean just the big bang attack.

Okay, maybe I should rephrase, I get why people cheer villains a lot, and it makes me sad. It's now not cool to love the good guy like Captain America and Superman. Everyone has to be Wolverine or Iron Man. Cheering for something means you endorse the action, why would you cheer the death of innocent people, even fictional ones? It's a great moment in the show but not a "Hell Yeah!" moment.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:20 pm

You had a 50/50 shot of being right about Vegeta surviving. Congrats, but it wasn't a forgone conclusion that he would've survived. It was hardly a stretch to think Goku's strongest attack would've finished him off however weakened it was. He was also weakened.
It was almost a guarantee he would survive =/.
Okay, maybe I should rephrase, I get why people cheer villains a lot, and it makes me sad. It's now not cool to love the good guy like Captain America and Superman. Everyone has to be Wolverine or Iron Man. Cheering for something means you endorse the action, why would you cheer the death of innocent people, even fictional ones? It's a great moment in the show but not a "Hell Yeah!" moment.
Because it's awesome to see a villain being evil and kicking ass. Over the past decades Anti Heroes and Villains has been much much better than the heroes. Which is why I asked this as DBZ was made around the time when Heroes > Villains by far with the fans. It's simple. Make better heroes and then the villains will be hated again. Even Batman has been slacking(Who I don't count as a ANti-Hero). We just need better written heroes. Hence why people go "HELL YEA! FUCK HIM UP! KILL THAT HERO SCUMBAG" when a villains is in action. I felt Goku was well written from the Goku arc to the Cell Arc(Hated his ass in Boo Arc) so I cheered him. I did mark out a little for GOhan since he was just starting to catch my eye. I just felt Freeza was well made that's all.

P.S. ABout the Cena thing. I'm 50/50 on that. Depends on what area you go to. I've sen some crowds anti-Cena(Not by smarks only either) with little Cena shirts to an average mixed reaction crowd.

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:33 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
You had a 50/50 shot of being right about Vegeta surviving. Congrats, but it wasn't a forgone conclusion that he would've survived. It was hardly a stretch to think Goku's strongest attack would've finished him off however weakened it was. He was also weakened.
It was almost a guarantee he would survive =/.
Okay, maybe I should rephrase, I get why people cheer villains a lot, and it makes me sad. It's now not cool to love the good guy like Captain America and Superman. Everyone has to be Wolverine or Iron Man. Cheering for something means you endorse the action, why would you cheer the death of innocent people, even fictional ones? It's a great moment in the show but not a "Hell Yeah!" moment.
Because it's awesome to see a villain being evil and kicking ass. Over the past decades Anti Heroes and Villains has been much much better than the heroes. Which is why I asked this as DBZ was made around the time when Heroes > Villains by far with the fans. It's simple. Make better heroes and then the villains will be hated again. Even Batman has been slacking(Who I don't count as a ANti-Hero). We just need better written heroes. Hence why people go "HELL YEA! FUCK HIM UP! KILL THAT HERO SCUMBAG" when a villains is in action. I felt Goku was well written from the Goku arc to the Cell Arc(Hated his ass in Boo Arc) so I cheered him. I did mark out a little for GOhan since he was just starting to catch my eye. I just felt Freeza was well made that's all.

P.S. ABout the Cena thing. I'm 50/50 on that. Depends on what area you go to. I've sen some crowds anti-Cena(Not by smarks only either) with little Cena shirts to an average mixed reaction crowd.
He was guarenteed to survive, based on what? Even though he survived, it's still badass, especially when you take into account how much power he had left.

There are plenty of great heroes, but a lot of people still claim Joker is more interesting than Batman, almost on principle. People are so inculcated with moral greyness and that "the devil plays the best toons", that when they see someone like Captain America, they think he's antiquated and uncool. Sometimes the villains are written as more sympathetic than the heroes because it's considered more complex writing.

Again, I'm not saying Freeza isn't interesting.

Wait, does anyone go "kill that hero scumbag!"? That makes me sad. Sure, heroes can sometimes be uninteresting, but the villain can be less intersting, and people will still cheer, because it's "cool". Randy Orton is great in the ring, but god awful on the mic. He doesn't have that interesting a personality. Guys hate Cena because he's a "goody two shoes", so they boo him. I've seen plenty of weird reactions, like people cheering the most ridiculous thing, seemingly just to see if they could get it over, or almost as an F You to the writers.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:46 pm

@ABED
I get what your saying, and I agree, mostly, but Captain America probably isn't the best example for you to use in this instance. He is antiquated. It's part of his character. He's trying to uphold values and ideas he learned in the 40's in the modern world. As opposed to, say, Superman or Batman, who exist on a "sliding timeline," Captain America always comes from World War II.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:52 pm

He was guarenteed to survive, based on what? Even though he survived, it's still badass, especially when you take into account how much power he had left.
As soon as Goku said the GenkiDama lost power. I thought it was obvious that he would live.
There are plenty of great heroes, but a lot of people still claim Joker is more interesting than Batman, almost on principle. People are so inculcated with moral greyness and that "the devil plays the best toons", that when they see someone like Captain America, they think he's antiquated and uncool. Sometimes the villains are written as more sympathetic than the heroes because it's considered more complex writing.
IMO The heroes haven't been all that in a long time. Which I'm glad that they're trying to fix that with the reboot series. Did I not say that for decades Villains > Heroes. Saying "still claim" just supports me lol.
Again, I'm not saying Freeza isn't interesting.
When did I say you said that? I'm saying he was better written than most heroes in DBz at the time.
Wait, does anyone go "kill that hero scumbag!"?.
That wasn't meant to be serious. I'm saying that how much the majority prefer villains now.
That makes me sad. Sure, heroes can sometimes be uninteresting, but the villain can be less intersting, and people will still cheer, because it's "cool". Randy Orton is great in the ring, but god awful on the mic. He doesn't have that interesting a personality. Guys hate Cena because he's a "goody two shoes", so they boo him. I've seen plenty of weird reactions, like people cheering the most ridiculous thing, seemingly just to see if they could get it over, or almost as an F You to the writers.
Well as a heel his mic work was a "C" I admit. But his actions made up for it. Not everyone needs to be great on the mic. LOL you think that's why people hate Cena? You're way off. People hate the fact he's been the face of the company for over 7 years now. He haven't evolve much compared to others. Hell people admit that when in serious feuds like The Rock and Cm Punk he's good on the mic and can wrestle. People hate that he doesn't show that side often. He's basically the same gimmick for too long as you can say. Through Hogan had similar issues but he was in a differ time. Cena is also BIGGER than the title. Cena vs Johnny Ace did not deserve to main event over Cm punk and Daniel Bryan.

I think we're going in circles here. I'm just saying it's a different time and people just love villains or anti-heroes better. I asked his because DB-DBZ was made in the time where villains was truly hated.

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:56 am

Captain America is from a different time, he's just old fashioned but that's different than being irrelevant. We could use a little old fashioned.

You thought that, not everyone did, and even if it's obvious, still pretty damn tough of Vegeta.
Did I not say that for decades Villains > Heroes. Saying "still claim" just supports me lol.
I get that, and always did, I'm saying it's disappointing. The vast majority of people preferring the villain over the hero makes me sad. At some point doing morally questionable things became cool.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by Insertclevername » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:05 am

I always thought Anti-Heroes were the cool ones.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by Cold Skin » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:49 am

ABED wrote:I get that, and always did, I'm saying it's disappointing. The vast majority of people preferring the villain over the hero makes me sad. At some point doing morally questionable things became cool.
I think this only applies in fiction most of the time. 8)
Fiction, specifically because it is only fiction, can make you feel things that you would obviously never feel in real life, because even when diving into that story at the max, a part of you still knows it's not real and allows a lot of things to be imitated "as if" it was real but it's not.

So, for example people will feel it's terribly fun and exciting to steal a car and run over people in games like Grand Theft Auto, but would NEVER want to do it in reality and would not think it's fun at all.

So fiction, even when it's realistic, always has that little part inside of your brain of "I can think horrible things, and wish for horrible things, and do horrible things cause it doesn't count in the end, nothing happens to anyone, it's just an illusion, just like dreams where I do things I would never do otherwise".
It helps you evade the reality not only because you see things that are impossible, that don't happen in real life, but also because you have a window on a temporary world that allows you to let yourself feel things you will never feel in reality.
And dangerous villains are things we - luckily - usually don't get to see in our lives, so they are the ones bringing the biggest "change of air" and it is normal for people to like them, sometimes even more than heroes.
But it is only because there is this "protective (fourth) wall", I can assure you that if villains truly existed in real life, people would not be so "oh, he's so classy / cool!"

I'm pretty sure when news broadcasts were reporting on a deadly criminal, you never heard someone around saying "oh, that guy's so cool, I like him, I'd like to be him soooo much! Go, go, kill them all, dude!".
So, the love towards fictionnal villains has nothing to do with people actually cheering "evil" in general.

Often, people will also love villains more than heroes DESPITE the fact that they are villains, not BECAUSE they are villains: it's just that a villain is very important to design (physically and mentally) as they are the reason for the whole story to happen and the ultimate obstacle to get through, so there is often a very special care given to them and this often results in the villain having more charisma, just because he's such an important part of the story that writers/designers take special care with him.
For example, I like Freezer and Cell a lot, and it's not that I enjoy the horrible things they do/plan, it's just that I really like their inventive physical appearance that evolves with circumstances and the way they bahave (move, talk, think).

So ultimately, I think the fact that people sometimes prefer villains to heroes are for those two reasons I've mentionned:
1) They are the ones that are farthest to what we know in reality and represent the greatest "breath of fresh air" compared to our usual lives. When we can't afford to be crazy or dangerous in our lives, they are our window to what those states are like and are therefore perhaps more fascinating somehow - or at least appeal to our curiosity more.
2) Their important role in the story - as often the final objective for the current quest to end or at least a very important step on the way - happens to often results in them having more thoughts from the writers/designers about their look/temper, which indirectly often results in "better" characters from a purely "storytelling" point of view.

However, I do think that when people think about who they'd like to be and who they'd like to be acquainted with in reality, they don't seriously think about villains.
To each category its own advantages, villains are our window to what we can't be (and therefore could be more appealing when we try to escape reality for a few minutes/hours), heroes are our window to what we could be (and therefore can have a more inspiring role in our lives or "lessons we can learn from them" despite the fact that they are from a fiction - though fictions are written by guys in reality, so ultimately we indirectly get those lessons from the writers).
Both bring exclusive feelings and their own intensity, which is why most people owning a game where you can be either good or evil will actually do the game twice, once enjoying the hero side, and once enjoying the villain side, and they will often tell you they felt "better" playing the hero and had "more fun" playing the villain.

What I find sad, like you, but luckily it doesn't happen too often, is when things show bad persons getting more love or having what they want rather than good persons IN REALITY.
I have no problem with people loving villains in fictions, but I find it sad and disappointing when bad people get what they want instead of a good one in reality, and sadly, we don't live in a fairy tale, so it does happen sometimes.

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:17 am

I get the safety of fiction thing but at some point, fictional villains were seen as cooler and more interesting than fictional heroes, and it seems often that it's just because they were villains.

I enjoy shows like Dexter but I still vastly prefer to watch old fashioned heroism. I don't know if you watch Breaking Bad, but some of the reactions fans of the show have bug me. Skylar is clearly a victim of her husband, and yet certain fans want her killed off because they think she's annoying.

At some point The Punisher, Wolverine and Vegeta became cooler than SUperman and Goku.
I can assure you that if villains truly existed in real life, people would not be so "oh, he's so classy / cool!"
People like Dillinger were villains but was almost enshrined as a hero by some.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by TheGmGoken » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:45 pm

Insertclevername wrote:I always thought Anti-Heroes were the cool ones.
They are. It goes Anti-Heroes > Villains > Heroes > Goody Two Shows Heroes.
it's just that a villain is very important to design
Not going to lie. Villains got the best characters design. Even Majin Vegeta looks better than regular Vegeta

ABED you've contradicted yourself.
In the official dubs, Reacoom is silly but he's also a villain that you are supposed to root against when he hurts the heros.

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:14 pm

ABED you've contradicted yourself.
When?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by TheGmGoken » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:18 pm

ABED wrote:
ABED you've contradicted yourself.
When?
I just quoted you.
In the official dubs, Reacoom is silly but he's also a villain that you are supposed to root against when he hurts the heros.
You said exactly that :thumbup:

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:37 pm

How is that a contradiction? I said "root against" not "root for".

When did I write that? What was the context?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by TheGmGoken » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:41 pm

ABED wrote:How is that a contradiction? I said "root against" not "root for".

When did I write that? What was the context?

Opps mis-read never mind. But you wrote it on thee funny but dumb thing fans say topic

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:37 pm

When Mr. Satan was fighting Cell (well, TRYING to fight Cell :D ) I wanted his face smashed into the tiles.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by ThePrinceOfSaiyans » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:49 pm

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:When Mr. Satan was fighting Cell (well, TRYING to fight Cell :D ) I wanted his face smashed into the tiles.
I think we all wished for this, and I think we all wished Buu would of killed Satan and not remembered him. :P

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:07 pm

I always cheer for Cell every time I see Mr. Satan fight him.

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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by Beji » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:35 pm

I thought it would be a little obvious what fight to cheer for when it comes to villains. The only fight I ever cheered for is one in which the villain poses no actual threat which would be the Son Goku Returns special. Abo and Cado were both villains and though I wasn't rooting for them at first and was just enjoying the Goten and Trunks vs them I really wanted to see the villains surpass them and have someone else step into the fray like Gohan or even a fusion of Goku and Vegeta. That's just me though. I realized they weren't that strong which is why I wanted to see who they could beat before getting put back in their place :mrgreen:
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I prefer this more because even though they had full intents of being evil they just couldn't do it. In a situation where you are confident a villain can't win why not cheer for fun :lol: ? Instead of a hero vs many villains it was two villains vs many heroes so I thought it was the one time rooting for bad guys was okay.
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Re: Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:42 pm

I wanted Neji to beat Naruto....wait you mean in Dragon Ball? Nothing comes to mind.
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