Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
There have been plenty of moments when I have. Usually when the villain is made to look so pathetic that it's unsatisfying. In chronological order:
*Pretty much everyone in the RRA/Uranai Baba arc that fought Goku, but especially Murasaki, Devilman and Black.
*Vegeta in the Saiyan arc (and Freeza arc if that counts)
*Imperfect Cell & Semi-Perfect Cell in the Android arc
*Gohan-Boo versus Vegetto.
For Vegeta and Imperfect Cell, I cheered for them because they impressed me so much and I wanted to see them keep it up. So I consider that to be good writing. For the RRA arc villains, Semi-Perfect Cell, and Gohan-Boo, it was because their performances were so poor it was hard to continue reading, and I'd consider it bad writing for that to happen.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
ABED brings up an interesting point actually, though if you ask me, it's probably just a fad. People are bored with the Puppy Kicking villains, so we get tons of sympathetic villains now...and I'm betting that in a few years, everyone will be bored with the villains being "whiny" or something, then they'll go back to sheer evil again.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
I was rooting for Majin Boo when he was wailing on Kaioshin.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
Fionordequester wrote:ABED brings up an interesting point actually, though if you ask me, it's probably just a fad. People are bored with the Puppy Kicking villains, so we get tons of sympathetic villains now...and I'm betting that in a few years, everyone will be bored with the villains being "whiny" or something, then they'll go back to sheer evil again.
I'll say people are more bored with the heroes(The goody two shoes one) than the Puppy KILLING Villains( ). I notice people every since the mid 90's(95ish) - Present people like the badass characters much more. As more villains are badass than Heroes to be honest.
KentalSSJ6 wrote:Buu is likely the number 2 anime villain in terms of regeneration with Naraku at 1.
Eh, I'd say Lernaea from Heroic Age takes that title, being as he's able to regenerate from complete non-existence.
Anyway, tangents aside, I rooted for Tien during the 22nd Budokai, as well as Piccolo during the 23rd (it probably helped that DBZ had been showed past the Frieza saga I think before they started showing DB on TV, so I was already familiar with the characters and fans of them).
I also rooted for Beerus in BoG. But I hoped Whis would fight.
Fionordequester wrote:ABED brings up an interesting point actually, though if you ask me, it's probably just a fad. People are bored with the Puppy Kicking villains, so we get tons of sympathetic villains now...and I'm betting that in a few years, everyone will be bored with the villains being "whiny" or something, then they'll go back to sheer evil again.
I'll say people are more bored with the heroes(The goody two shoes one) than the Puppy KILLING Villains( ). I notice people every since the mid 90's(95ish) - Present people like the badass characters much more. As more villains are badass than Heroes to be honest.
Which tells me that we've grown more cynical and/or writers have forgotten how to write good heroes and villains. If your villain is more badass than the hero, you're doing it wrong. I'm guessing the 90's approximation has to do with wrestling. The trend started well before then.
I'm no psychologist but if I had to guess why people think the villains are more badass is because they are typically driving the narrative and are in control most of the time. Having a badass villain makes them seem more in control and there's something appealing about that for the reader/audience. However, that's a problem with having a hero that isn't at least as in control as the villain. This is my big problem with The Dark Knight. Ledger's performance is amazing, and the Joker is great in the film but he's damn near omniscient. At no point in the film was anyone, including BATMAN (ie, the hero) ever ahead of him. One of the things that is so appealing about Batman to me is how he isn't just a blunt instrument. He outsmarts his villains. As "badass" as many of the DB villains are, I hope we can all agree that Goku is pretty damn badass. He has his legs broken and both arms rendered useless and still manages to beat the bad guy.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
I think you can find a villain badass but still sympathize more with the hero more and want them to prevail, even if they aren't as cool. Gus Fring was an awesome villain and one of my favorite Breaking Bad characters, but I would have been devastated if he killed crippled, impotent Hank in the climax of season four.
Fionordequester wrote:ABED brings up an interesting point actually, though if you ask me, it's probably just a fad. People are bored with the Puppy Kicking villains, so we get tons of sympathetic villains now...and I'm betting that in a few years, everyone will be bored with the villains being "whiny" or something, then they'll go back to sheer evil again.
I'll say people are more bored with the heroes(The goody two shoes one) than the Puppy KILLING Villains( ). I notice people every since the mid 90's(95ish) - Present people like the badass characters much more. As more villains are badass than Heroes to be honest.
Which tells me that we've grown more cynical and/or writers have forgotten how to write good heroes and villains. If your villain is more badass than the hero, you're doing it wrong. I'm guessing the 90's approximation has to do with wrestling. The trend started well before then.
I'm no psychologist but if I had to guess why people think the villains are more badass is because they are typically driving the narrative and are in control most of the time. Having a badass villain makes them seem more in control and there's something appealing about that for the reader/audience. However, that's a problem with having a hero that isn't at least as in control as the villain. This is my big problem with The Dark Knight. Ledger's performance is amazing, and the Joker is great in the film but he's damn near omniscient. At no point in the film was anyone, including BATMAN (ie, the hero) ever ahead of him. One of the things that is so appealing about Batman to me is how he isn't just a blunt instrument. He outsmarts his villains. As "badass" as many of the DB villains are, I hope we can all agree that Goku is pretty damn badass. He has his legs broken and both arms rendered useless and still manages to beat the bad guy.
The 90's remark had NOTHING to do with wrestling. It was just a time where being badass was better than goody two shoes. People haven't become cynical. We've just gone tired of same old shit so our interest changes. Heroes are still written decently. But some people just prefer villains. Nothing wrong with that. People prefer villains most of the time because they are so cool and do a great job of making you "Hate" them that you like them. If someone plays/writes a good villain people will appericate it. And claim it's their favorite. Goku isn't really badass IMO. Vegeta is badass at times, Piccolo is ALWAYS badass, and hell even Vegetto was badass. Goku had "badass" moments but was NOT badass. Goku is more of a relaxed type of guy. Who doesn't give a shit. Which is good and all. Just not what some(Maybe most) prefer. Nothing is wrong with the people or generation that prefers villains. We or they just love how good villains are. It's like since it's fantasy there are different standers.
There are some still great heroes. Hell SpiderMan - Peter Parker will FOREVER be my favorite Superhero comic series(I own all issues of every series except Ultimate Spider #1). He's that the "badass" one. He's just a cool guy. But I'll say when it comes to everyone else I mostly prefer characters who are badass as they are better IMO(And some others). While the "STAY IN SCHOOL KIDS! Be nice 24/7!" Heroes are boring.
I think you can find a villain badass but still sympathize more with the hero more and want them to prevail, even if they aren't as cool. Gus Fring was an awesome villain and one of my favorite Breaking Bad characters, but I would have been devastated if he killed crippled, impotent Hank in the climax of season four.
This. Just cause people prefer villains or find them cool. Doesn't mean they want them to win.
Freeza...I just love how he speaks and how he's a polite asshole. Just listening to Nako or Ayres speak just brings out so much joy in me. Even before seeing him in action, is own name struck fear into people. He was a looming shadow cast over Planet Namek.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:Freeza...I just love how he speaks and how he's a polite asshole. Just listening to Nako or Ayres speak just brings out so much joy in me. Even before seeing him in action, is own name struck fear into people. He was a looming shadow cast over Planet Namek.
I know its been covered before, but the guy who did Abridged Freeza could have done the role for Funimation. Or at least I think so.
dbzfan7 wrote:Freeza...I just love how he speaks and how he's a polite asshole. Just listening to Nako or Ayres speak just brings out so much joy in me. Even before seeing him in action, is own name struck fear into people. He was a looming shadow cast over Planet Namek.
I know its been covered before, but the guy who did Abridged Freeza could have done the role for Funimation. Or at least I think so.
Imo He sounds JUST LIKE Ayers anyways. Honest..,I can't the difference unless I hear TFS dialog
Storm wrote:Chris Ayres did such an excellent job anyway it's not really like they needed to hire him.
But for what it's worth, Little Kuriboh's Freeza WAS praised by Ayres.
Its reasons like that I wish Sabat was actually able to get TFS in for some actual recording. It would have been great to hear Abridged Freeza and Vegeta doing official voice work.
). I notice people every since the mid 90's(95ish) - Present people like the badass characters much more. As more villains are badass than Heroes to be honest.
