"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[Kaboom]

I think too much is being read into what Goku said. All it implies is that, in some fashion, bringing Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight would be helpful. It doesn't say, "they could just easily beat Boo for us," nor does it say, "if they team up maybe they can manage something," nor does it lean intrinsically towards one or the other. Goku thinks Vegeta wants to bring in backup. That's all.

[KentalSSJ6]

I think too much is being read into what Goku said. All it implies is that, in some fashion, bringing Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight would be helpful. It doesn't say, "they could just easily beat Boo for us," nor does it say, "if they team up maybe they can manage something," nor does it lean intrinsically towards one or the other. Goku thinks Vegeta wants to bring in backup. That's all.

Granted if Gohan or Gotenks took on Kid Buu, the little Majin would get crushed.

Always did like that alternate story path with Gohan in Budokai 3 where he indeed gets to fight Kid Buu instead of Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

I think too much is being read into what Goku said. All it implies is that, in some fashion, bringing Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight would be helpful. It doesn't say, "they could just easily beat Boo for us," nor does it say, "if they team up maybe they can manage something," nor does it lean intrinsically towards one or the other. Goku thinks Vegeta wants to bring in backup. That's all.

I wouldn't be focusing on it so much if someone didn't continually try to use it as evidence that everybody in the entire Buu Saga was lying about how strong Goku was the whole time.

[Zantetsuken]

So you're basing your argument off of an assumption?

Is it? I'm not creating comeplete scenarios - I'm just restating exactly what has happened in the story. Nothing I said was "an assumption" It's pretty blatant.
Your friends in here are completely trying to rewrite the manga with comments like "They would double team him for an overkill" And "they forgot about them" (Yeah, let's not even go into the subject on how everyone alive in the universe forgot the 2 "strongest" characters...right)

[Darkprince410]

None of us have been rewriting the scenario though, as we've all been bringing up everything that's happened as the manga lays it out. You however have blatantly ignored facts such as Goku outright saying that he stands no chance against Evil Buu or that he indicates a significant drop in power from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, just because it doesn't suit your beliefs. The very fact that you're assuming the three are going to team up against Pure Buu (since you still adhere to Gohan and Gotenks "helping") is an assumption in and of itself, since the original manga just has it that the two will be brought up in order to fight. It doesn't say how or in what way (apart from they would be instead of Goku), and as I've said, there are multiple possibilities as to why he wanted to bring them up. The overkill reason is just one, the insurance is another.

[Zantetsuken]

Except as we've pointed out, it's not "help fight" it's just fight, as in fight in his place. Viz says help fight, but the original manga suggests otherwise. I'm also saying that the overkill situation is just one of the possible reasons as to have both come up, and that the other is just insurance should something happen to one of them.

I'm saying it something that has never happened in Z - I refuse to believe it's a valid scenario and I don't think anyone else reading the manga or watching the manga assumed as such.
As the timeline plays out

Goku and Vegeta are inside Buu, whereupon Goku establishes that they can't beat him without fusing. (He establishes they'd need to fuse outside, even when at full size and thus full strength). Vegeta refuses to fuse with him, and they continue on to find a way to weaken Buu further.

They remove Mr. Buu, triggering a regression in forms. He transforms initially into South Kaioushin Buu, resulting in an increase in strength, and then into Pure Buu, resulting in a significant decrease in strength from Evil Buu (as established by Goku).

THERE IS NO SUCH THING - I don't care what you say. Show me ONE, just ONE official source and I will forever shut my mouth about this issue.
Goku noticed the first initial rise in power, but Kaioshinn AGAIN makes a comment about his increased power AFTER the transformation is complete. There is no other comment about his power afterwards

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

The quote is talking about how Boo's body shrunk and says nothing about his ki at all. That's what the "Note" there is trying to explain, but apparently I didn't word it clearly enough.

Kibitoshin relates the history of Buu prior to the events of the start of the story. He further relates that Buu no longer possesses a heart, and that this heart had weakened his overall power when he had it. Take note though that this heart was only a result of absorbing Dai Kaioushin, and that the boost given to him by South Kaioushin was still in place during this time. As Fat Buu, a large portion of Dai's influence was there, but with Evil Buu, with his ki re-arranged (established by Piccolo), only a slight touch of Dai's influence is there. As such, he's gaining nearly all of Kaioushin Buu's power, with only a bit held back by Dai's influence.

This is NOT stated, it's a stupid fan theory that has no basis in the story.

Earth is destroyed and Goku and the others are brought to Kaioushin Kai, where Kibitoshin insists they fuse. Goku counters, saying that he won't need it to beat him, and that he wants to do it on his own because Buu is also on his own. This points out that Goku feels that Evil Buu was stronger than Pure Buu.

No it doesn't. You realize your entire arguement is based around one vauge line that I believe is not meant to be Interpreted in a completely different manner.

Goku and Pure Buu fight, with Goku being established as being equal or stronger. Vegeta comments that Goku is more powerful than he imagined, having only seen him fight as a Super Saiya-jin 3 once before against Fat Buu, and further confirmation of Goku being able to defeat Pure Buu on his own.

I just want to point out that this proves that Goku is stronger than his first transformtion shown - Vegeta outright states it. Is it possible Goku is actually stronger than your giving him credit for?
Goku loses the ability to hold Ssj3, and the Dragonballs are used to restore the Earth. Goku believes Vegeta wanted to bring the boys back to life to fight in his place, but Vegeta responds that he wants the Earthlings to take care of their own problems for once, and suggests the Genki Dama.

I'm not saying Gohan fighting against Buu if he had absorbed all three of the others, since I don't see Buu being able to get the drop on all three, but I am saying that if Buu were to absorb Gotenks or Goku or Vegeta, then Gohan would be able to easily defeat him still.

Well this is wrong. Gohan lost BADLY to a Gotenks absorbed buu. What manga are you reading? Adding someone like Goku or Vegeta's power to his own would make him even more fearsome. Again if that was a risk, why offer to bring them unless it was absolutely needed?

I mean, everything in the final battle shows that all is lost and you want us to believe that Gohan and Gotenks could have 1 shotted this guy and won the fight? And that ALL the promotional material, including the comments regarding BoG basically hyping SSJG as something that can surpass the strength of SSJ3. And the reaction of Goku's defeat to Beers would make no sense based on how you imply the story should play out.

Given that Goku is the hero of Battle of the Gods and the central figure, it's only natural they would hype him up. Besides, the official bio for Gohan from Battle of the Gods says that he's stronger than any pure Saiya-jin up to the start of the movie, so again it's a situation of you can't have your cake and eat it too.

NO. The Bio does not say that - it says he has power that surpasses A pure Saiya-jin.

[Draken]

So you're basing your argument off of an assumption?

Is it? I'm not creating comeplete scenarios - I'm just restating exactly what has happened in the story. Nothing I said was "an assumption" It's pretty blatant.
Your friends in here are completely trying to rewrite the manga with comments like "They would double team him for an overkill" And "they forgot about them" (Yeah, let's not even go into the subject on how everyone alive in the universe forgot the 2 "strongest" characters...right)

You're assuming Goku was lying about his power and was suppressing himself the entire time. "Statements saying that he can't suppress this form are PROBABLY false". Hence, based on an assumption.

[Zantetsuken]

The whole "help" part makes no sense, anyway. Goku couldn't fight anymore and Vegeta wasn't any better. It would've been Gohan and Gotenks against Kid Boo.

As for the "suppressing Super Saiyan 3", it's true that he can't. What Goku did was not fight all-out against Boo earlier. That's not the same as suppressing power. Also, they're not exactly in a position to be thinking Gohan and Gotenks would be too much. Goku just finished saying the Potara would've been enough to finish Kid Boo in a blast, so of course he'd rather have Gohan and Gotenks annihilate Boo instead of expecting one or the other to do it.

Actually that is a good point, Goku brought up fusion as a easier win, but again no mention of Gohan and Gotenks as a solution....

[Kamiccolo9]

The whole "help" part makes no sense, anyway. Goku couldn't fight anymore and Vegeta wasn't any better. It would've been Gohan and Gotenks against Kid Boo.

As for the "suppressing Super Saiyan 3", it's true that he can't. What Goku did was not fight all-out against Boo earlier. That's not the same as suppressing power. Also, they're not exactly in a position to be thinking Gohan and Gotenks would be too much. Goku just finished saying the Potara would've been enough to finish Kid Boo in a blast, so of course he'd rather have Gohan and Gotenks annihilate Boo instead of expecting one or the other to do it.

Actually that is a good point, Goku brought up fusion as a easier win, but again no mention of Gohan and Gotenks as a solution....

They were both dead when Goku suggested fusion.

[Darkprince410]

The whole "help" part makes no sense, anyway. Goku couldn't fight anymore and Vegeta wasn't any better. It would've been Gohan and Gotenks against Kid Boo.

As for the "suppressing Super Saiyan 3", it's true that he can't. What Goku did was not fight all-out against Boo earlier. That's not the same as suppressing power. Also, they're not exactly in a position to be thinking Gohan and Gotenks would be too much. Goku just finished saying the Potara would've been enough to finish Kid Boo in a blast, so of course he'd rather have Gohan and Gotenks annihilate Boo instead of expecting one or the other to do it.

Actually that is a good point, Goku brought up fusion as a easier win, but again no mention of Gohan and Gotenks as a solution....

As an easier win yes, but not that it was necessary to win, unlike the situation with Evil Buu, where he felt that, outside of weakening him further, fusion was their only chance of winning. You say that it's not to be taken in that context, but there isn't any other logical way to take those lines.

Besides, the idea to restore the Earth using the Dragonballs hadn't even been devised yet, so any thought of doing so to bring Gohan and Gotenks to Kaioushin Kai hadn't been considered either.

You also adhere so strongly to one of Kibitoshin's lines, yet you dismiss another of his lines in the exact same conversation when he CONFIRMS that the bulky form of Buu we see is the same form he took when Pure Buu absorbed South Kaioushin before.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “

Highlights

Kibitoshin - South Kaioushin absorbed by Buu
Rou Kaioushin - So he became that huge Buu from before?
Kibitoshin - Yes

Thus, the huge Buu from before = South Kaioushin Buu

You say that Kibitoshin's one line about Buu's heart weakening him is super important, and wouldn't be put in unless it was necessary, then you turn around and ignore this bit of dialogue, despite that it also had to have been put in for a reason. Once again, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't pick and choose what is relevant and irrelevant based on what you want.

[Zantetsuken]

None of us have been rewriting the scenario though, as we've all been bringing up everything that's happened as the manga lays it out. You however have blatantly ignored facts such as Goku outright saying that he stands no chance against Evil Buu or that he indicates a significant drop in power from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, just because it doesn't suit your beliefs. The very fact that you're assuming the three are going to team up against Pure Buu (since you still adhere to Gohan and Gotenks "helping") is an assumption in and of itself, since the original manga just has it that the two will be brought up in order to fight. It doesn't say how or in what way (apart from they would be instead of Goku), and as I've said, there are multiple possibilities as to why he wanted to bring them up. The overkill reason is just one, the insurance is another.

I haven't ignored anything at all. It's like you saying "Goku says he can't beat fat buu" To which we later see Goku saying he could. Will you still assume that Goku can't beat fatbuu? No, new information provided us insignt on what happened. Like I said, I believe Goku was considering his size in his statement (and later Buu basically points it out for us as a reader)

But your theories on the other hand are not something that has ever happened as a strategy in the manga, it just sounds silly to say that "Well Gohan could win on his own, but we brought Gotenk just to watch" I mean, does it hurt that much to admit Goku is stronger?

The whole "help" part makes no sense, anyway. Goku couldn't fight anymore and Vegeta wasn't any better. It would've been Gohan and Gotenks against Kid Boo.

As for the "suppressing Super Saiyan 3", it's true that he can't. What Goku did was not fight all-out against Boo earlier. That's not the same as suppressing power. Also, they're not exactly in a position to be thinking Gohan and Gotenks would be too much. Goku just finished saying the Potara would've been enough to finish Kid Boo in a blast, so of course he'd rather have Gohan and Gotenks annihilate Boo instead of expecting one or the other to do it.

Actually that is a good point, Goku brought up fusion as a easier win, but again no mention of Gohan and Gotenks as a solution....

They were both dead when Goku suggested fusion.

Possible, but the earrings were "dead" Just like Gohan and Gotenks. And notice when they died Vegeta/Goku/Supreme Kai made no comment of "Why did you let them die, they were our only hope?" or "We need to bring them back" But destroy the earring - end of the world.

[Kamiccolo9]

Possible, but the earrings were "dead" Just like Gohan and Gotenks. And notice when they died Vegeta/Goku/Supreme Kai made no comment of "Why did you let them die, they were our only hope?" or "We need to bring them back" But destroy the earring - end of the world.

The Fusion Dance was still an option.

[Darkprince410]

I haven't ignored anything at all. It's like you saying "Goku says he can't beat fat buu" To which we later see Goku saying he could. Will you still assume that Goku can't beat fatbuu? No, new information provided us insignt on what happened. Like I said, I believe Goku was considering his size in his statement (and later Buu basically points it out for us as a reader)

But your theories on the other hand are not something that has ever happened as a strategy in the manga, it just sounds silly to say that "Well Gohan could win on his own, but we brought Gotenk just to watch" I mean, does it hurt that much to admit Goku is stronger?
.

I won't argue when new evidence is brought to the table to establish otherwise (as is the case with Goku's initial lie about beating Fat Buu), but Goku is talking about them not standing a chance against Buu even upon leaving his body, where he'll regain his size. Sure, if they intended to fight him while inside his body, then their size and their reduced ki would be a factor, but he's saying that in regards to leaving Buu's body and still not standing a chance without fusion.

[Zantetsuken]

Possible, but the earrings were "dead" Just like Gohan and Gotenks. And notice when they died Vegeta/Goku/Supreme Kai made no comment of "Why did you let them die, they were our only hope?" or "We need to bring them back" But destroy the earring - end of the world.

The Fusion Dance was still an option.

Vegeta didn't know it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I haven't ignored anything at all. It's like you saying "Goku says he can't beat fat buu" To which we later see Goku saying he could. Will you still assume that Goku can't beat fatbuu? No, new information provided us insignt on what happened. Like I said, I believe Goku was considering his size in his statement (and later Buu basically points it out for us as a reader)

The difference is Goku's earlier quote about Fat Boo was clearly contradicted. That isn't comparable to the Super Boo situation at all. And again, there's no point in him considering his size when 1) He makes it a point to state Super Boo is stronger, which would be pointless if Super Boo only has a size advantage, and 2) Goku thinks he's capable of blowing through Super Boo. If he's considering size when mentioning Super Boo's advantage, then why does he think he has enough power to blast through him with his Chi?

But your theories on the other hand are not something that has ever happened as a strategy in the manga, it just sounds silly to say that "Well Gohan could win on his own, but we brought Gotenk just to watch" I mean, does it hurt that much to admit Goku is stronger?

Or "we're not going to take any chances and do whatever it takes to destroy Boo", maybe?

[Zantetsuken]

I haven't ignored anything at all. It's like you saying "Goku says he can't beat fat buu" To which we later see Goku saying he could. Will you still assume that Goku can't beat fatbuu? No, new information provided us insignt on what happened. Like I said, I believe Goku was considering his size in his statement (and later Buu basically points it out for us as a reader)

But your theories on the other hand are not something that has ever happened as a strategy in the manga, it just sounds silly to say that "Well Gohan could win on his own, but we brought Gotenk just to watch" I mean, does it hurt that much to admit Goku is stronger?
.

I won't argue when new evidence is brought to the table to establish otherwise (as is the case with Goku's initial lie about beating Fat Buu), but Goku is talking about them not standing a chance against Buu even upon leaving his body, where he'll regain his size. Sure, if they intended to fight him while inside his body, then their size and their reduced ki would be a factor, but he's saying that in regards to leaving Buu's body and still not standing a chance without fusion.

Says who?

[Zantetsuken]

I haven't ignored anything at all. It's like you saying "Goku says he can't beat fat buu" To which we later see Goku saying he could. Will you still assume that Goku can't beat fatbuu? No, new information provided us insignt on what happened. Like I said, I believe Goku was considering his size in his statement (and later Buu basically points it out for us as a reader)

The difference is Goku's earlier quote about Fat Boo was clearly contradicted. That isn't comparable to the Super Boo situation at all. And again, there's no point in him considering his size when 1) He makes it a point to state Super Boo is stronger, which would be pointless if Super Boo only has a size advantage, and 2) Goku thinks he's capable of blowing through Super Boo. If he's considering size when mentioning Super Boo's advantage, then why does he think he has enough power to blast through him with his Chi?

But your theories on the other hand are not something that has ever happened as a strategy in the manga, it just sounds silly to say that "Well Gohan could win on his own, but we brought Gotenk just to watch" I mean, does it hurt that much to admit Goku is stronger?

Or "we're not going to take any chances and do whatever it takes to destroy Boo", maybe?

And we are going into circles.

[Kamiccolo9]

Possible, but the earrings were "dead" Just like Gohan and Gotenks. And notice when they died Vegeta/Goku/Supreme Kai made no comment of "Why did you let them die, they were our only hope?" or "We need to bring them back" But destroy the earring - end of the world.

The Fusion Dance was still an option.

Vegeta didn't know it.

Yes he did. He talks about "those stupid poses" to Goku inside Buu's body, and was aware of Gotenks' existence.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I haven't ignored anything at all. It's like you saying "Goku says he can't beat fat buu" To which we later see Goku saying he could. Will you still assume that Goku can't beat fatbuu? No, new information provided us insignt on what happened. Like I said, I believe Goku was considering his size in his statement (and later Buu basically points it out for us as a reader)

The difference is Goku's earlier quote about Fat Boo was clearly contradicted. That isn't comparable to the Super Boo situation at all. And again, there's no point in him considering his size when 1) He makes it a point to state Super Boo is stronger, which would be pointless if Super Boo only has a size advantage, and 2) Goku thinks he's capable of blowing through Super Boo. If he's considering size when mentioning Super Boo's advantage, then why does he think he has enough power to blast through him with his Chi?

But your theories on the other hand are not something that has ever happened as a strategy in the manga, it just sounds silly to say that "Well Gohan could win on his own, but we brought Gotenk just to watch" I mean, does it hurt that much to admit Goku is stronger?

Or "we're not going to take any chances and do whatever it takes to destroy Boo", maybe?

And we are going into circles.

Welcome to the Boo saga

[Zantetsuken]

Yes he did. He talks about "those stupid poses" to Goku inside Buu's body, and was aware of Gotenks' existence.

Seeing it and knowing it are two different things. Ask Trunks and Goten.