A Newcomer's Experience

[Ajay]

I'm in two minds with Kai's dub.

On one hand, it's a pretty well acted and faithfully translated version of the show. On the other, it still retains many of the same issues the original had; my primary issue being the exaggerated voices. And by that, I mean my issue is with Chris Sabat. He's improved but it's the jarring difference between Horikawa and Furikawa's performances compared to his that really make it difficult for me to watch.

I'm not going to damn anyone for enjoying Kai's dub like I do with Z's but it's certainly no touch on the original.

[Ringworm128]

Kai, yeah. While it does improve on the original Z dub a lot, it's still full of awful shitstains from it. And while the recastings are in general fairly good, most of the principal characters are played by miscast actors who just play them because they played them years ago in an embarrassingly awful dub, and Funi didn't want to replace them with fitting actors to avoid angering the people who have grown used to them.
That Scemmel guy might act better now than he did 10 years ago, but he still can't play a convincing Goku for the life of him, and if the goal had been t produce a good dub, he should've been replaced with someone who could. Instead we get some weird Frankenstein dub that tries to be as good as it can without being too different from the old shit it's trying to improve on... which is the entire problem, and how it can never get beyond "mediocre and heavily flawed" in terms of quality.

Personally that's what makes the Kai dub so great. At least for someone who is a fan of both the Funimation dub and the original. It doesn't try to be the Japanese version, it sticks close but it still stands out as it's own thing. And personally I think the actors have no reason to be replaced because they (IMO) do fit the characters. I have a feeling "miscast" just means "doesn't sound like the Japanese voice actor."

[Ajay]

I have a feeling "miscast" just means "doesn't sound like the Japanese voice actor."

I'd agree with that.

I think there's definitely some miscasts such as Schemmel's Kaio but yes, I fully admit that it's just find the voices themselves that I find to be poor rather than them being unfitting for the character.

I think Schemmel plays Goku far too heroically at times but he does pull off casual Goku very well.

As exaggerated and forced as Sabat's voices are for Piccolo and Vegeta, he still gets across their personalities perfectly.

[ABED]

I have a feeling "miscast" just means "doesn't sound like the Japanese voice actor."

I'd agree with that.

I think there's definitely some miscasts such as Schemmel's Kaio but yes, I fully admit that it's just find the voices themselves that I find to be poor rather than them being unfitting for the character.

I think Schemmel plays Goku far too heroically at times but he does pull off casual Goku very well.

As exaggerated and forced as Sabat's voices are for Piccolo and Vegeta, he still gets across their personalities perfectly.

I think Sabat has hit the sweet spot with his Piccolo and Vegeta.

I'm not sure why anyone would hold it against the actors for being a bit over the top, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about. There's enough subtlety that it's not hammy.

Schemmel and Sabat are really good in their respective roles now. You know how I know to take your review serious? You said "shit" twice.

You're basically admitting to disregarding it because it doesn't line up with your own opinion, rather than on any of the merits of its content.

Which is a dismissal that can basically be dismissed outright entirely on its own, right?

I'm not dismissing it because it's different than my own, but because I think saying something is "shitty" is a rather immature way to show discontent with something. Not sure how you got from pointing out that he used "shit" twice to "he doesn't hold the same opinion as me, so screw it."

[AgitoZ]

I'm not sure why anyone would hold it against the actors for being a bit over the top, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about. There's enough subtlety that it's not hammy.

Well, when their Japanese counterparts don't have to go over the top to get a good performance some people might do that.

Not sure how you got from pointing out that he used "shit" twice to "he doesn't hold the same opinion as me, so screw it."

Because you're ignoring all of his other points in his points due to a rather petty reason like crass language.

[Ajay]

I'm not sure why anyone would hold it against the actors for being a bit over the top, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about. There's enough subtlety that it's not hammy.

I hold it against the English cast on the basis that the Japanese cast are pretty refined. Their voices, whilst marginally exaggerated, still have a believability to them. The English cast are very clearly cartoon voices and that bothers me.

[Adamant]

Personally that's what makes the Kai dub so great. At least for someone who is a fan of both the Funimation dub and the original.

That was part of my point, though. The Funi dub of Kai doesn't get the chance to be good because of this endless shopping list of "stuff from the Funi Z dub" it insists on including to not anger all these fans of that. It tries to be as good as in can within the given circumstances, but it still handicaps itself way too much by not wanting to distance itself too much from the horribly flawed product it's trying to improve on.

It doesn't try to be the Japanese version, it sticks close but it still stands out as it's own thing.

It's not supposed to "stand out as its own thing". It's supposed to be a dub of Dragonball Kai, not "a dub of Dragonball Kai with a bunch of baggage from a revisionist "dub" of Dragonball Z getting in the way".

I have a feeling "miscast" just means "doesn't sound like the Japanese voice actor."

Greg Ayers(is that his name?) doesn't sound much like Nakao. He still plays a reasonably convincing Freeza because he talks, acts and is written in a way that fits the role.
Scemmel on the other hand, was cast over 10 years ago as a soundalike for another miscast actor in another bad dub, presumably by some director who had no idea what Goku's actual character was like in the first place. Has he gotten better at acting? Sure, and it's not his fault he's still incapable of playing a character he should've never been cast as in the first place, but that doesn't make the end result any better.

And I'd say a newcomer to the series with no prior experience with the English dub thinking English Kai dub Goku doesn't sound right counts for far more than " someone who is a fan of both the Funimation dub and the original", who presumably (correct me if I'm wrong) grew up on the English dub of Z and had that voice imprinted on their brain as "how Goku sounds" long before they saw the original thinking he does fit in the role.

[ABED]

I'm not sure why anyone would hold it against the actors for being a bit over the top, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about. There's enough subtlety that it's not hammy.

I hold it against the English cast on the basis that the Japanese cast are pretty refined. Their voices, whilst marginally exaggerated, still have a believability to them. The English cast are very clearly cartoon voices and that bothers me.

Ginyu is very exaggerated, and so is Pilaf, and Kaio. I know Schemmel's Kaio is garbage but the problem isn't that it's cartoony, it's that it's a terrible and annoying voice. Dragon Ball is a cartoon, it's over the top, and even the Japanese cast are plenty over the top. You make it sound like everyone in the dub are hamming it up.

Not everyone feels that Schemmel was miscast. He's quite good as Goku. Whatever problems there are with his performance lay at the feet of the writer or director. Kai is VERY different than Z and by and large has distanced itself from a boat load of the problems of the previous dub.

Because you're ignoring all of his other points in his points due to a rather petty reason like crass language.

because other than Schemmel he's very general about his complaints, and I think the crass language does undercut his argument, it comes across as immature.

[Blade]

I hold it against the English cast on the basis that the Japanese cast are pretty refined. Their voices, whilst marginally exaggerated, still have a believability to them. The English cast are very clearly cartoon voices and that bothers me.

This is almost certainly due to the fact that you've listened to the Japanese audio with non-Japanese ears. In Japan voice performances in acting, even in straight roles, are delivered in styles that would be pretty abnormal if used in real conversations. In anime this is amplified to a further extent, and therefore to native ears the Japanese voice acting would sound very 'cartoony' and surreal if used in regular conversation. I think in Japanese culture there's a stricter separation between fantasy and reality, which has is perhaps why a lot of Westerners find anime and Japanese drama a little alienating and bizarre when not initiated - but it's not just in regard to content, but also in subtler ways that non-speakers may not be able to understand.

There's actually a pretty common issue with foreigners who try to learn Japanese who mostly encounter the language through Anime, whereby they absorb a lot of the mannerisms, affectations and phrases from their favourite shows and attempt to deploy them in regular conversation - leaving native speakers who they try to converse with a little bit confused.

[ABED]

Blade explains it very well.

[Ajay]

I fully understand that anime characters don't speak like a regular Japanese person would.

There's a big difference between: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkFqP5jkD-o

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C0R3DdOfk

Adamant also explains my POV very well too regarding Kai's English dub.

[ABED]

I fully understand that anime characters don't speak like a regular Japanese person would.

There's a big difference between: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkFqP5jkD-o

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C0R3DdOfk

Wrong series, and Sabat's performance in that scene is good, not great, but fitting.

Also, can anyone find an example in Kai where Schemmel's Goku is "too heroic"?

[Ajay]

Of course it's from Z. The point still stands. It's painfully over the top and is a prime example of Sabat's inability to tone that voice down.

Schemmel being over the top? Easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gUJ_4SyY0

[ABED]

Of course it's from Z. The point still stands. It's painfully over the top and is a prime example of Sabat's inability to tone that voice down.

Schemmel being over the top? Easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gUJ_4SyY0

To you, but seeing as how he's psyching himself up to die, I think it works, and the point doesn't stand, the issue was about Kai.

Wow, that is SO not a great example. It's an inherently exaggerated moment even in the original. Goku is speechifying.

[Ajay]

No, the point does stand.

He really hasn't changed that much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fniW1PHCg94 0:34 onwards. Just as exaggerated as anything from Z.

And yes, to me, that's all this is. A circular back and forth of opinions. There's no right and wrong here, just preference and opinion.

I don't think it works at all. It's far too heroic and cocky.

[ABED]

There's no right and wrong here, just preference and opinion.

I don't think it works at all. It's far too heroic and cocky.

Except Goku does get cocky during the Freeza fight even in the Japanese version, and it's an inherently heroic moment complete with the explosion in the background to punctuate the big speech. But yes, I agree that you hear what you hear and I hear what I hear. I don't want you to think my disagreement is out of antipathy.

[90sDBZ]

I'd actually say Sabat is one of the most real sounding actors in Kai. He manages to pull off Vegeta, Piccolo and Yamcha all really well. His Vegeta sounds calm and intelligent and speaks in a soft voice which works sort of as a mask for his vicious nature that lies under the surface. Piccolo also sounds calm and intelligent and youthful. Yamcha sounds youthful and confident in himself. The only critique I could possibly give Sabat in Kai is that his Vegeta and Piccolo still sound similar when laughing. Apart from that they sound different and his Yamcha is completely distinct from both of them.

[Ajay]

I feel like that entire section is build on rage rather than arrogance and cockiness. The latter traits come later in the battle.

I always found that speech in the original to be sinister and threatening rather than what I feel is heroic and cocky in Schemmel's performance.

I struggle to find anyone but Kelamis bearable as Goku in English but then I grew up with Ocean/Westwood so I have no deep seated feelings regarding Schemmel either way.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Apart from that they sound different and his Yamcha is completely distinct from both of them.

I had a hard time believing my friend when he told me Sabat voices Yamcha too. I was like no way it's sounds way different. Kudos on that Mr.Sabat!

[90sDBZ]

I feel like that entire section is build on rage rather than arrogance and cockiness. The latter traits come later in the battle.

I always found that speech in the original to be sinister and threatening rather than what I feel is heroic and cocky in Schemmel's performance.

I struggle to find anyone but Kelamis bearable as Goku in English but then I grew up with Ocean/Westwood so I have no deep seated feelings regarding Schemmel either way.

I don't think Sabat sounds angry all the time. I mean his Vegeta clearly isn't angry when he's on top and gloating about how strong he is. And to be fair the character IS angry a lot of the time. It's like Clinckenbeard's Gohan who rarely sounds happy. But that's only because the character is so often going through some tough time.

As for Kelamis he had his ups and downs. Personally I'd say even in his early days Schemmel never sounded as off as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uerSAbr-mz0

At that point in the series I'd say even Kirby Morrow's Goku was an improvement over Kelamis.