Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Saiga]

8,100. Just so it the second digit also reflects his Kaio-ken multiplier for each use.

[RandomGuy96]

OMG YOU'RE TOTALLY CONTRADICTING OFFICIAL MATERIAL!

Meh, I sort of do the same thing with Goku's x20 Kamehameha. Disregard the Daiz number saying that it was 60 million, I mean. Assuming that's what they meant.

[Saiga]

I do find it pretty weird that they apparently just list it as "8,000" and "32,000" when the manga clearly states it is over that. I figured saying it was 8,010 rounded down would still contradict what the Daizenshuu said, so fuck it.

[RandomGuy96]

I do find it pretty weird that they apparently just list it as "8,000" and "32,000" when the manga clearly states it is over that. I figured saying it was 8,010 rounded down would still contradict what the Daizenshuu said, so fuck it.

I can understand the need for it. Say the actual number was 8,032. Would that really be worth listing? It would ruin the neatness of the kaio-ken numbers.

I contradict the kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha for a different reason. And even then, I can still kind of weasel my around so that I'm not TECHNICALLY disregarding the Daizenshuu (assuming that they're giving the power of kaio-ken x20 Goku, not that specific blast, and that having a picture of the Kamehameha was just a visual cue).

[Saiga]

I do find it pretty weird that they apparently just list it as "8,000" and "32,000" when the manga clearly states it is over that. I figured saying it was 8,010 rounded down would still contradict what the Daizenshuu said, so fuck it.

I can understand the need for it. Say the actual number was 8,032. Would that really be worth listing? It would ruin the neatness of the kaio-ken numbers.

I contradict the kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha for a different reason. And even then, I can still kind of weasel my around so that I'm not TECHNICALLY disregarding the Daizenshuu (assuming that they're giving the power of kaio-ken x20 Goku, not that specific blast, and that having a picture of the Kamehameha was just a visual cue).

Well, I was thinking they would write the Kanji or whatever for "over" next to it instead of the specific number.

What did you have for the KK20 Kamehameha?

[RandomGuy96]

I do find it pretty weird that they apparently just list it as "8,000" and "32,000" when the manga clearly states it is over that. I figured saying it was 8,010 rounded down would still contradict what the Daizenshuu said, so fuck it.

I can understand the need for it. Say the actual number was 8,032. Would that really be worth listing? It would ruin the neatness of the kaio-ken numbers.

I contradict the kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha for a different reason. And even then, I can still kind of weasel my around so that I'm not TECHNICALLY disregarding the Daizenshuu (assuming that they're giving the power of kaio-ken x20 Goku, not that specific blast, and that having a picture of the Kamehameha was just a visual cue).

Well, I was thinking they would write the Kanji or whatever for "over" next to it instead of the specific number.

What did you have for the KK20 Kamehameha?

I had the Kamehameha at ~75 million. Base Goku at 2.5 million, multiplied by 20, enhanced by the Kamehameha boost. The 60 million number bugs me for a lot of reasons;

-It implies that he took absolutely no damage from 50% Freeza's beat down, which wasn't the case. To my knowledge, kaio-ken isn't something that just gives you an energy renewal or second wind, like Super Saiyan. So he shouldn't have been at his max.
-Freeza was pretty heavily implied to have gone to the limit of that form ("about 70%" of his full power) to survive it, and he still took decent damage; I don't see a blast at 60 million doing that to someone at ~84 million (I think he was 80 million specifically, but that doesn't really matter).
-Either that, or Freeza inexplicably chose to suppress himself while he was nearly dying.
-It implies that kaio-ken and attack boosts don't stack. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, but assuming that they do is helpful a few times. Including when trying to make sense of movies and filler.

EDIT: Also, edited my Trunks Arc levels on 194. For anyone who doesn't want to bother going back:

Spoiler:

Goku - 3,700,000
--Super Saiyan - 185,000,000
Trunks- 3,300,000
--Super Saiyan - 165,000,000
Piccolo - 3,200,000
Vegeta - 2,800,000

Mecha Freeza-
--En route to Earth- 4,500,000
--Natural Max (vs Future Trunks)- 100,000,000
--Full Power (not seen or used)- 150,000,000
King Cold-
-- En route to Earth- 7,000,000
--Full Power (vs Future Trunks)- 100,000,000

[Saiga]

Ah. Yeah, I think Freeza was also at 70% there, but I don't think the Kamehameha needs to be more than 60,000,000 when he's only got what appear to be grazes. What do you think about ki defence? It would seem that Piccolo and Goku can defend against ki attacks better than people without ki control, like Raditz. So would you think Freeza would be able to defend against them worse than Piccolo and Goku, since he's not as good with ki control as them? I know he can alter his battle power, but still needs transformations for that to some extent, so he's probably not as good. Anyway, that could explain why he doesn't take it so well.

I know Goku took damage from Freeza's beat down, but is it necessary for him to have dropped in battle power as well? I can't remember if that was said.

I'm not sure if I believe in a Kamehameha boost. Not sure at all with that one.

Also, on a completely unrelated note: Piccolo tanking Goku's second Super Kamehameha. Couldn't this actually just be Goku deliberately avoiding killing him?

[RandomGuy96]

Ah. Yeah, I think Freeza was also at 70% there, but I don't think the Kamehameha needs to be more than 60,000,000 when he's only got what appear to be grazes. What do you think about ki defence? It would seem that Piccolo and Goku can defend against ki attacks better than people without ki control, like Raditz. So would you think Freeza would be able to defend against them worse than Piccolo and Goku, since he's not as good with ki control as them? I know he can alter his battle power, but still needs transformations for that to some extent, so he's probably not as good. Anyway, that could explain why he doesn't take it so well.

I know Goku took damage from Freeza's beat down, but is it necessary for him to have dropped in battle power as well? I can't remember if that was said.

I'm not sure if I believe in a Kamehameha boost. Not sure at all with that one.

Also, on a completely unrelated note: Piccolo tanking Goku's second Super Kamehameha. Couldn't this actually just be Goku deliberately avoiding killing him?

Well, even in that case, I'd think that based on numbers alone it shouldn't have scuffed him up as much it did. I mean, going by the example of Nappa vs Gohan's Masenko, that blast should've just stung his hand a little. It clearly did more than that, at least, and I have no doubt that Freeza is more skilled at manipulating ki than Nappa is (or any soldier in his empire for that matter).

I never got the need for his transformations anyway. What exactly does he mean when he says he can't "control" his power? He seemed to be doing just fine when we saw him. Plus, Cold can control his power, even though he's stronger than Freeza's true form (not his buff one though) and is of the same species. And Freeza could freely control his battle power in his true form. He could reduce a power of 80 million to a little over 3 million with just ki control, yet he needs a whole new transformation just to go down just a tiny bit more? And it's apparently insanely dangerous to stay in his true form, unless he relinquishes that tiny bit of extra power? I like to think that Freeza was just lying about their purpose, and made the forms purely to troll the warriors of the universe who think they have a chance against him

I suppose it's never said, but I just assume that if someone twice your powers beats the hell out of you, your power should drop. I mean, we've seen that happen before; Vegeta's power dropped when he was being beaten up in the Saiyan Saga. Heck, it dropped while he wasn't being beaten up (at least not as overtly as Goku was here) in the android arc. I'm not saying it has to be a lot, but it being absolutely none bugs me.

I don't think so. I believe that Goku had enough control to fire a blast that can heavily injure but not kill, and that he would have done so if he could. I don't think he was holding back or anything, and in any case, Piccolo took no lasting damage. Just further proof that power levels aren't always 100% consistent. Besides, reducing it to "Goku just held back too much" kind of kills the scene. Also, Piccolo tanked the Super Kamehameha twice, didn't he?

EDIT: To go on another off-topic tangent: everyone remember this quote?

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P2.2-3
Freeza: “I didn’t think you’d be this good…You’re the first person besides my parent who’s got dust on me…This might be the first time in my life I’ve been so excited…”

It's not really important, but does anyone else think that the Trunks Arc retconned the strength of Freeza's parent(s)? This line pretty heavily implied they were below 3 million.

[Saiga]

I did forget about Nappa. Well, I think the difference could be in Freeza holding it back with his hand instead of just knocking it away. Freeza actually seemed to get engulfed in the blast.

I too have no idea what the point is in him having transformations and ki control. It's just something I've never been able to make sense of, although thinking of them as a way for him to control his viciousness works to some extent.

I also know of the example with Zarbon dropping significantly in battle power, but I was thinking that people who control ki could keep their battle power at max for longer. And Super Saiyan would drain Android arc Vegeta's ki. But it does sound like Goku losing battle power makes more sense here.

Wait, do you mean he could do that, or couldn't? I don't have much trouble believing he could, and it certainly makes more sense to me if we assume the Super Kamehameha does more than double his battle power.

[RandomGuy96]

I did forget about Nappa. Well, I think the difference could be in Freeza holding it back with his hand instead of just knocking it away. Freeza actually seemed to get engulfed in the blast.

I too have no idea what the point is in him having transformations and ki control. It's just something I've never been able to make sense of, although thinking of them as a way for him to control his viciousness works to some extent.

I also know of the example with Zarbon dropping significantly in battle power, but I was thinking that people who control ki could keep their battle power at max for longer. And Super Saiyan would drain Android arc Vegeta's ki. But it does sound like Goku losing battle power makes more sense here.

Wait, do you mean he could do that, or couldn't? I don't have much trouble believing he could, and it certainly makes more sense to me if we assume the Super Kamehameha does more than double his battle power.

To me, him not knocking it away was a sign it was temporarily overpowering him until he powered up.

But he specifically said power. Yet he also says that it's not about conserving power, so I really don't get what his deal is. Besides, he seems most vicious, or at least animalistic, in his second form. His true form is at least outwardly polite and reasonable, at least as much as his first form.

I believe that he could do that. But not that he really needed to; I don't think he was holding back, I think Piccolo was just tough enough to do that. Eh... I really do think that just ignoring the Kamehameha against Raditz (or not thinking about it as a multiplier) is the best route to go, otherwise you have to deal with a lot of weird scenes of people tanking each other's charged ki blasts, including Kamehamehas.

[Saiga]

Oh, I definitely think that as well, but I think he probably could have still knocked it away after he powered up. Or even if he couldn't, I think that could be responsible for the difference in injury received.

Yeah, I know he says that, which is why I couldn't fully get behind that idea. Actually, the forms seem like a really bad idea, because it takes him some time to transform compared to his near instantaneous shift in power. It seems like he's taking a completely unnecessary risk in using those forms.

And even ignoring the battle power of the Kamehameha, the fact that Raditz struggles to block it makes me think it must be stronger than the one Goku used on Piccolo or something really weird is going on there. The ki defence thing could also be in play too, I guess. Don't even know if I believe in that fully though.

[RandomGuy96]

Oh, I definitely think that as well, but I think he probably could have still knocked it away after he powered up. Or even if he couldn't, I think that could be responsible for the difference in injury received.

Yeah, I know he says that, which is why I couldn't fully get behind that idea. Actually, the forms seem like a really bad idea, because it takes him some time to transform compared to his near instantaneous shift in power. It seems like he's taking a completely unnecessary risk in using those forms.

And even ignoring the battle power of the Kamehameha, the fact that Raditz struggles to block it makes me think it must be stronger than the one Goku used on Piccolo or something really weird is going on there. The ki defence thing could also be in play too, I guess. Don't even know if I believe in that fully though.

Eh... I still don't think that it should have scuffed him up that much if he was that much stronger.

Yeah, that's what I've always thought. It might be better if it was emphasized that Freeza has very poor control of his power and, say, have the planet slowly being destroyed by his mere presence after he transforms. Or just cut the transformations, but those are iconic.

Meh. That didn't really make sense either; if the blast is less than a thousand, and Raditz himself is 1,500, he shouldn't even need to block it. He is an amateur at manipulating ki, but I don't see how anyone could be THAT bad at it.

[Saiga]

Maybe, maybe not. I don't have a problem with it, and that's what the Daizenshuu gives us. Although like I said, the idea that Goku should be at less than maximum makes more sense.

I'd sooner cut the ki control than the transformations (I like the idea of Freeza creating the forms as his answer to lack of ki control) but that would require a lot of rewriting to actually make possible. But it'd also fix the ridiculous power scaling which I'm not fond of. :3

Yeah, it is pretty weird I guess.

[Kid Buu]

I notice you have Fangs lower than Krillin RandomGuy; didn't Fangs beat him rather easily?

[Herms]

...who's "Fangs"?

[Gyt Kaliba]

...who's "Fangs"?

I'm pretty sure that was the FUNi dub name for...was it Dracula Man or Vampire Man?

This guy.



Anyway, the dub had all kinds of weird names for these guys. I think Invisible Man was 'See-Through', Myra was 'Bandages' or something, and 'Akkuman' was 'Spike'. Not 100% sure on the latter two, so anyone who's watched it more recently can correct me there.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, I didn't really care about getting his name right so I just used the one I saw everyone else using (in the rare event someone actually mentions him) because he's so minor.

[Saiga]

There are multiple names for those guys. What are they in the original manga?

Also, vampire guy being weaker than Kuririn makes sense. Invisible Man was stronger than him, and weaker than Yamcha, and Kuririn is stronger than Yamcha. The vampire guy didn't show anything to make him stronger than Kuririn - he won by drinking his blood and kicking him out of bounds when he was weakened.

[RandomGuy96]

There are multiple names for those guys. What are they in the original manga?

Also, vampire guy being weaker than Kuririn makes sense. Invisible Man was stronger than him, and weaker than Yamcha, and Kuririn is stronger than Yamcha. The vampire guy didn't show anything to make him stronger than Kuririn - he won by drinking his blood and kicking him out of bounds when he was weakened.

Yeah, I based my chain mostly on the vampire dude being weaker than Yamcha.

[Kid Buu]

It's possible Yamcha is weaker than Claude Rains; as Yamcha hit him with a surprise Wolf Fang Fist when Claude Rains was caught off-guard by Roshi's nose bleed.