Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta cried cause of how his race was treated and beg Goku to kill Freeza for the Saiyans.

Then I guess Goku gave Vegeta a nice "screw you" when he spared Freeza. Or at least tried to. Well, there was one good thing about that decision at least.

I'm stealing this

[Fionordequester]

Goku went through a brain washer? They sent him to Earth with a mission. Hardly a brain washer. More or less being naturally strong and destructive

Remember that whole thing where the space pod was all "wake up Kakarot. Destroy all life forms!" or something like that? Or was that filler only?

[TheGmGoken]

Goku went through a brain washer? They sent him to Earth with a mission. Hardly a brain washer. More or less being naturally strong and destructive

Remember that whole thing where the space pod was all "wake up Kakarot. Destroy all life forms!" or something like that? Or was that filler only?

You sure that wasn't dub only? Don't remember it.

[ABED]

Goku went through a brain washer? They sent him to Earth with a mission. Hardly a brain washer. More or less being naturally strong and destructive

Remember that whole thing where the space pod was all "wake up Kakarot. Destroy all life forms!" or something like that? Or was that filler only?

That was filler. Gohan only turned Great Ape once during training.

[RandomGuy96]

On the question of "would Vegeta have been better if someone else was raising him?". I think the Buu Saga might say more about Vegeta's true nature than any other saga ever did. By this point, he had been living on Earth with a family for seven years. His upbringing can't really be blamed for anything he does anymore. Then Goku comes back for a day and Babidi lands on Earth:

What Vegeta COULD have done: kill Dabra and Babidi, give Buu's ball to Kaioshin, watch Goku leave as his time runs out, and continue living a life of permanent luxury alongside his wife and kid, except now with the honor of being the savior of the the universe and the strongest being of existence, worshiped by the God of Gods himself.

What Vegeta actually did: sold his soul to the devil, started murdering innocent people, and released the ancient universe destroying demon that the God of Gods had just warned him not to, resulting in his own death as well as the deaths of his family and the entire Earth. All in a vain attempt to outdo a dead man.

I'm stealing this

Cool, I've never been sigged before.

[Fionordequester]

What Vegeta actually did: sold his soul to the devil, started murdering innocent people, and released the ancient universe destroying demon that the God of Gods had just warned him not to, resulting in his own death as well as the deaths of his family and the entire Earth. All in a vain attempt to outdo a dead man.

To be fair, he was kind of going through a MASSIVE mid-life crisis at that point ("my quest for greatness giving way to this LIFE of mediocrity!")...besides, you forget that he ALSO realizes how wrong he was and sacrifices his own life to save EVERYONE a short time later on that same day. And he has that epiphany when seeing Goku fight Kid Buu...

So really, to have that sort of change going on, there had to be SOME amount of good inside him. This is why I say that he still would've had some sociopathic tendencies, but he wouldn't have been NEARLY as bad.

[ABED]

The operative word there is "some". Vegeta does some heroic things but he's not a hero. At his best, he's an anti-hero.

[Polyphase Avatron]

He was definitely a villain in the Saiyan saga. In the Namek saga he went from a villain to an anti-villain to an anti-hero.

[DarkPrince_92]

First time watching it though (Wasn't a fan of him back then), he was definitely a Villain for me until Freeza starts trouble.

[Kamiccolo9]

I seem to remember him laughing about killing a Namekian village even after Freeza was defeated. I would say that falls squarely into the list of "not a good guy" traits.

[RandomGuy96]

He was also still openly plotting to take over the universe even while working with the heroes. He's still a full on villain in the Namek arc.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He didn't care that his planet, race, and father were destroyed, he didn't mind killing Nappa, the comrade that was in his side literally for his entire life, just because he wasn't strong, and he enjoyed killing entire populations of planets & destroying planets. During & after the Freeza arc, his personality didn't change at all: he just made an alliance with Gohan & co. to beat Freeza & his henchmen so that he can obtain the Dragon Balls, and through them, immortality. After that, he stayed on Earth waiting for Goku to come so that he can kill him, and also so that he can take advantage of the gravity room & spaceship to train & become a Super Saiyan, and after learning about the Artificial Humans, he only made an alliance so that he can fight these new opponents & kill them so that he will be the one who will kill Goku. It was until Future Trunks came and he learned that he was his son that the change begun. But even in the beginning of Boo arc, there was still evil in him, which is evident when he kills innocents so that Goku will fight with him. By the end of Boo arc though, he had turned into a completely good guy, which is evident from his actions in the final battle with Boo, from the fact that he was good enough to participate in the creation of the Super Saiyan God, and from the fact that by the time of GT, he considers himself an Earthling, and takes Goku's place as the Earth's protector.

[ABED]

I think the most fitting ending for Vegeta would be for him to not return from the dead, but be at peace with his fate. He murdered too many people.

[TheGmGoken]

I think the most fitting ending for Vegeta would be for him to not return from the dead, but be at peace with his fate. He murdered too many people.

So did Piccolo, Yamcha(not everyone going to.give capsules), and perhaps Tien of most likely off screen. They ALL got to be brought back.

[ABED]

I think the most fitting ending for Vegeta would be for him to not return from the dead, but be at peace with his fate. He murdered too many people.

So did Piccolo, Yamcha(not everyone going to.give capsules), and perhaps Tenshinhan of most likely off screen. They ALL got to be brought back.

When did Yamcha murder anyone? Tenshinhan was training to be an assassin, but we're never told or shown that he killed anyone. As for Piccolo, I'm more than fine with him paying for his former crimes, in fact, I think GT's ending is fitting. Besides their death toll doesn't come close to Vegeta's. Vegeta has probably racked up a body count that would eclipse Hitler, Stalin, and Mao's combined.

[RandomGuy96]

Yamcha was a desert bandit who attacked with a sword. I think it's pretty safe to say he's killed some innocent people. Also, did Piccolo actually kill anyone?

[ABED]

Yamcha was a desert bandit who attacked with a sword. I think it's pretty safe to say he's killed some innocent people. Also, did Piccolo actually kill anyone?

You wonder if Piccolo killed anyone but you're certain Yamcha killed people? It wouldn't matter if Piccolo was successful anyways, he tried to murder Goku and had he succeeded would've killed everyone else.

Yamcha even back then strikes me as someone with a worse bark than bite.

[RandomGuy96]

Yamcha was a desert bandit who attacked with a sword. I think it's pretty safe to say he's killed some innocent people. Also, did Piccolo actually kill anyone?

You wonder if Piccolo killed anyone but you're certain Yamcha killed people? It wouldn't matter if Piccolo was successful anyways, he tried to murder Goku and had he succeeded would've killed everyone else.

Yamcha even back then strikes me as someone with a worse bark than bite.

Didn't he try to cleave Goku with a sword BEFORE he knew Goku was sword proof? And he fired at Goku's friends car with a rocket launcher. If this is his standard operating procedure, it's very unlikely he didn't kill anyone. Piccolo, on the other hand, is not shown to have killed anyone. On the contrary, he saved many lives. Him killing everyone else after is also very unlikely, given that after he did kill Goku, he quickly mellowed out, even with no one around to stop him. He also rescued that family in that filler scene. It seems that he just wanted to avenge his past self.

[ABED]

Yamcha was a desert bandit who attacked with a sword. I think it's pretty safe to say he's killed some innocent people. Also, did Piccolo actually kill anyone?

You wonder if Piccolo killed anyone but you're certain Yamcha killed people? It wouldn't matter if Piccolo was successful anyways, he tried to murder Goku and had he succeeded would've killed everyone else.

Yamcha even back then strikes me as someone with a worse bark than bite.

Didn't he try to cleave Goku with a sword BEFORE he knew Goku was sword proof? And he fired at Goku's friends car with a rocket launcher. If this is his standard operating procedure, it's very unlikely he didn't kill anyone. Piccolo, on the other hand, is not shown to have killed anyone. On the contrary, he saved many lives. Him killing everyone else after is also very unlikely, given that after he did kill Goku, he quickly mellowed out, even with no one around to stop him. He also rescued that family in that filler scene. It seems that he just wanted to avenge his past self.

He probably surmised that Goku was a great warrior and he wasn't trying to blow up the DB gang with the rocket launcher, he was just breaking the vehicle so he could steal their stuff. Again, it baffles me that you think Piccolo is more innocent. He attempted to murder Goku. Avenge his past self, like he was righting a wrong? I have a hard time believing Papaya Island could've been completely evacuated when Piccolo destroyed it.

Regardless of any of this, Vegeta is still not deserving of ever being considered a "good guy". He got off with a slap on the wrist. His crimes are too numerous

[Kid Buu]

Yes; he's a dick. I'm not really sure why Krilin felt like Vegeta was the lesser of two evils between him and Freeza when the only real difference is that Vegeta looks human.