Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Also, in Yamcha's introduction, Puar's expecting Yamcha to kill everyone and cheers him on to do it. That, combined with the sword and rocket launcher, makes it pretty clear that he's at least attempted murder.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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RandomGuy96
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
That's useful and telling. But even disregarding Puar implying that Yamcha's done this before... desert bandit. Sword. Uses sword to attack defenseless looking travelers. Do the math.Also, in Yamcha's introduction, Puar's expecting Yamcha to kill everyone and cheers him on to do it. That, combined with the sword and rocket launcher, makes it pretty clear that he's at least attempted murder.
Who cares? So did Yamcha. So did half of Goku's friends. If the only bad thing he ever did was attempt to kill Goku, he's practically a saint compared to the rest of the gang. Including Goku, who's callousness and selfishness led to thousands of irreversible deaths (since the people killed by both Cell and Buu wouldn't be able to be revived).Again, it baffles me that you think Piccolo is more innocent. He attempted to murder Goku
Krillin was actually secretly a space racist.Yes; he's a dick. I'm not really sure why Krilin felt like Vegeta was the lesser of two evils between him and Freeza when the only real difference is that Vegeta looks human.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
The thing is, Piccolo was pure evil at that point, while Yamcha was never pure evil. And Piccolo had committed many crimes in his previous life as Piccolo Daimao, and had killed countless people. Piccolo just didn't get the chance to do the same because Goku defeated him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
I thought that King Piccolo and our Piccolo were supposed to be different people, despite technically being the same spiritually? Otherwise I wonder how he ever became a good guy at all, if he really was pure evil.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
He was pure evil during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai (since he was still a Mazoku), but it seems that Goku, by showing him mercy, changed him. And then, Gohan came to his life.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
I don't get that. If he were pure evil, shouldn't he have thrown Goku's mercy back in his face rather than let it effect him?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He was pure evil during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai (since he was still a Mazoku), but it seems that Goku, by showing him mercy, changed him. And then, Gohan came to his life.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Yamcha was literally on the verge of killing Goku and Oolong until Bulma saved them.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Kami noticed that Piccolo was different than he was before, and that he wasn't a Mazoku anymore. Daizenshuu also states that Piccolo was originally a Mazoku, and that his techniques that extend his arms & make him giant are Mazoku abilities. So, he definitely was pure evil during the 23rd TB.RandomGuy96 wrote:I don't get that. If he were pure evil, shouldn't he have thrown Goku's mercy back in his face rather than let it effect him?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He was pure evil during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai (since he was still a Mazoku), but it seems that Goku, by showing him mercy, changed him. And then, Gohan came to his life.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Does a Mazoku have to be pure evil?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Kami noticed that Piccolo was different than he was before, and that he wasn't a Mazoku anymore. Daizenshuu also states that Piccolo was originally a Mazoku, and that his techniques that extend his arms & make him giant are Mazoku abilities. So, he definitely was pure evil during the 23rd TB.RandomGuy96 wrote:I don't get that. If he were pure evil, shouldn't he have thrown Goku's mercy back in his face rather than let it effect him?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He was pure evil during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai (since he was still a Mazoku), but it seems that Goku, by showing him mercy, changed him. And then, Gohan came to his life.
Wait, does that mean Lord Slug is a Mazoku too?
If he really was, the title of "pure evil" doesn't actually mean anything then. Or it means something largely unrelated to morality. Someone who is really that evil wouldn't care about mercy, and would still remain thoroughly evil to the end. Like Freeza.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
I guess? Mazoku means Demon Clan, and Piccolo stopped being one when he started turning into a good guy.RandomGuy96 wrote:Does a Mazoku have to be pure evil?
I'm not sure if Slug is stated to be one, but his henchmen were stated to be Mazoku.RandomGuy96 wrote:Wait, does that mean Lord Slug is a Mazoku too?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai wasn't as evil as Piccolo Daimao, because Goku told Gohan that he wasn't very evil any more - and that's before he'd seen him after the 23rd Budokai.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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MediaFanGirl93
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
A villain is defined as "a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot," and with Vegeta (along with Nappa) trying to destroy the Earth, of course that hinders things for the protagonists, so yes Vegeta was a villain in those Sagas.
I don't have anything against the guy, but really, what is up with people using the Draco In Leather Pants for these villains now-a-days??
I don't have anything against the guy, but really, what is up with people using the Draco In Leather Pants for these villains now-a-days??
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Ninja Murasaki
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Puar said to teach them a lesson/beat them up in retribution for Oolong's bullying. He never asked Yamcha to kill them, Puar is a child so it makes sense he wouldn't be into murder.Saiga wrote:Also, in Yamcha's introduction, Puar's expecting Yamcha to kill everyone and cheers him on to do it. That, combined with the sword and rocket launcher, makes it pretty clear that he's at least attempted murder.
The Rocket Launcher was used on Oolong's bus. The sword was mainly for threatening travelers, when Yamcha got serious, he put it away.
Yamcha even says he doesn't want to hurt the kids too much, referring to Oolong and Goku.
Its obvious, he wasn't intended to be a murderer.
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ABED
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Re: Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?
Wouldn't they be brought back by the Namekian DBs?(since the people killed by both Cell and Buu wouldn't be able to be revived).
Difference between Piccolo and Yamcha is Yamcha didn't try to conquer the world. Yes, Piccolo's reincarnation did change but only in the five year gap. Until that point, he was just as evil as his predecessor and would've murdered every single person. The fact that Yamcha had a sword and swung doesn't mean he had intended to kill anyone. Given how strong he was compared to most, Yamcha wouldn't have had to kill anyone, he could've just used it to intimidate. Now you are claiming Goku is worse than the former Demon King?Who cares? So did Yamcha. So did half of Goku's friends. If the only bad thing he ever did was attempt to kill Goku, he's practically a saint compared to the rest of the gang. Including Goku, who's callousness and selfishness led to thousands of irreversible deaths (since the people killed by both Cell and Buu wouldn't be able to be revived).
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