"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[Attitudefan]

My philosophy is this: nothing can be perfect, for if it is, it cannot be "good". Instead, it would be empty, soulless.

Dragonball is great for everything it has, including its flaws. That is why we come on here, to discuss, dive into themes, argue with each other, figure out motives of the characters and the author, create 'fixes' or fan fictions that satisfy our fanon needs. Without this, without the good, the bad, and the ugly, Dragonball would just be an empty shell. Sure, it could be flawless, but then we wouldn't have the community of people here, everywhere, to enjoy all facets of the franchise.

I neither agree nor disagree with the Original Poster of this thread, nor do I think it is a bad thing to have this topic on the forum. No, I think it adds to why the fandom and the series is so unique.

Whether or not anyone agrees with me, or for that matter, reads my post, this is how I feel. This is why Dragonball is a classic (among it being the first of its kind with great animation... well most of the time; characters people fall in love with, and a classical adventure story for the ages: replicated but never duplicated).

[Gonstead]

My philosophy is this: nothing can be perfect, for if it is, it cannot be "good". Instead, it would be empty, soulless.

Too true. Too true.

I embrace all of Dragon Ball, flaws and everything because I find it a rich experience to be able to view and enjoy such a show that has made itself an international phenomenon for people of all ages, race and sex for them to enjoy it as well. Yes, some flaws are pretty bad. Yes, sometimes they probably make no sense but honestly, unless you are actively setting out complain about said issues instead of just simply sitting back and let the show be some form of entertainment for you...who really cares?

Whatever your opinion you may have on the show, you cannot deny that the franchise has earned it's place in many people's hearts fair and square.

[Attitudefan]

Whatever your opinion you may have on the show, you cannot deny that the franchise has earned it's place in many people's hearts fair and square.

And honestly, that is all that matters.

[thatdbzguy]

Show DBZ to anyone who has studied extensively in the study of quality literature, and they will laugh right in your face.

I know I'm skipping over 7 pages, but this just has to be said if it hasn't already.

It's a foreign cartoon. Why would you even attempt to mention "quality literature" (whatever that is, what you deem "quality" are likely the books I wanted to stab to death in high school) and "DBZ, the kids cartoon from Asia" in the same damn sentence?

Sheezus. The things anime fans talk about. (Especially DB fans...)

Can't we just admit, here on a Dragon Ball forum, that Dragon Ball IS objectively good?

Who cares if it's a cartoon? Cartoon's can still be quality litetature. Just look at Avatar: TLA.

[GarrettCRW]

The problem with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (but mostly Z) is that it's a below-average adaptation of a great comic. It's not even the filler that gets to me, it's that some of that filler is so hideously paced and downright lazy. And, really, since the piss-poor remasters for The Transformers, G.I. Joe, and Jem (only the latter of which was eventually replaced with the original finished versions of the episodes) have revealed just reams of atrocious camera work and animation by Toei for Sunbow, I can't help but hold Toei largely responsible for the bulk of the problems with Dragon Ball's initial adaptation.

[Dalesy]

Show DBZ to anyone who has studied extensively in the study of quality literature, and they will laugh right in your face.

I know I'm skipping over 7 pages, but this just has to be said if it hasn't already.

It's a foreign cartoon. Why would you even attempt to mention "quality literature" (whatever that is, what you deem "quality" are likely the books I wanted to stab to death in high school) and "DBZ, the kids cartoon from Asia" in the same damn sentence?

Sheezus. The things anime fans talk about. (Especially DB fans...)

Can't we just admit, here on a Dragon Ball forum, that Dragon Ball IS objectively good?

Who cares if it's a cartoon? Cartoon's can still be quality litetature. Just look at Avatar: TLA.

Actually, no, they can't. Literature is the art of written work. Writing is not a necessary component of a cartoon, and when a cartoon does contain writing, it's only one of many elements that comprise the whole.

[thatdbzguy]

The problem with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (but mostly Z) is that it's a below-average adaptation of a great comic. It's not even the filler that gets to me, it's that some of that filler is so hideously paced and downright lazy. And, really, since the piss-poor remasters for The Transformers, G.I. Joe, and Jem (only the latter of which was eventually replaced with the original finished versions of the episodes) have revealed just reams of atrocious camera work and animation by Toei for Sunbow, I can't help but hold Toei largely responsible for the bulk of the problems with Dragon Ball's initial adaptation.

Except the comic too has all of the issues that I listed in my first post on this thread.

Does a comic with all of those issues sound good to you?

[VegettoEX]

Does a comic with all of those issues sound good to you?

You keep asking the exact same question over and over and over and over again. Lots of different people are giving you lots of different answers. Some like it in spite of the issues you brought up, some actually find the issues you brought up to be positives, and some folks do indeed dislike those same things.

There is no consensus. That's what makes art beautiful.

If you're not going to add anything new to the discussion at all, I'm going to have to ask you to stop contributing any further at this point.

[thatdbzguy]

Does a comic with all of those issues sound good to you?

You keep asking the exact same question over and over and over and over again. Lots of different people are giving you lots of different answers. Some like it in spite of the issues you brought up, some actually find the issues you brought up to be positives, and some folks do indeed dislike those same things.

There is no consensus. That's what makes art beautiful.

If you're not going to add anything new to the discussion at all, I'm going to have to ask you to stop contributing any further at this point.

I asked him if he honestly thought that a comic with those issues sounds good to him. This question isn't even restricted to just DBZ. It can be any comic he wants it to be, just with all of those qualities I previously listed.

That's hardly the same exact question I've been asking. Not only that, but it gives the chance for more discussion of the topic from someone else.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Since people have been asking me to explain why DBZ is bad, I'm dedicating this topic to doing just that. Basically, I'll list my main points, and give examples of them and why they negatively affect the series.

A repetitive, overly simplistic story
Ever saga in DBZ follows the same basic formula: Bad guy shows up, good guys get there ass beaten, good guys train, Goku beats bad guy (excluding Cell Games). This would not be such a problem if DBZ provided some sort of depth and complexity for each saga that helped to separate themselves more form the basic formula. But no, that's far from the case. Instead, we get barebones stories that only show off this issue more than DBZ already was.

All Shounen anime follow this structure, why is this suddenly DBZ's problem? Even still calling DBZ's plot symplistic is just ignorant. Its easy to follow yes but thats what Akira intended, he doesnt like to overcomplicate things like Naruto and Bleach do. He never hid that... but to say DBZ's plot is mind-numbingly simplistic I have to call BS on that: its entirely a false conclusion. DBZ was always intended to be fun to watch for action junkies. It never tried to be more than that so discrediting it for that false-crime is ridiculous.

Minus the Buu and BoG arcs DBZ from Raditz to SPC was one long story. It was about fighting for personal entitlent, respect for yourself/self-acceptance, overcoming prejudice, classism, space-racism, greed vs pride, overcoming ignorance of others, and Goku's reself-realization, Vegeta's hatred of Freeza stealing his birthright as a prince, killing his people and mocking him for it for most of his life, Vegeta's yearn to take it back and reclaim lordship, Vegeta having to throw away his pride from the futility of his self-reliance for Goku: a low-class soldier who he was disgusted with being the only one who can avenge his name. Goku finally accepting that he was a Saiyan and realiing the pride in it through Vegeta... his pure heart awaken by the fury awakening the SSJ of legend he was destined to be: defeating Freeza who ignored their prophecy and lost to the karma... Goku also learns the lesson that not he cant just assume that all people he fights will side with his morals just because he believes them. (Freeza: attacking him after he was spared)

In the Cyborg to Cell Arc: it was the most strategic period of DBZ ever written it was about constantly speculating and predicting the enemy's movements, working to ascend past the legend itself (when SSJ actually meant something) while making mistakes, finding out the limits of the body, Trunks wanting to earn the acceptance from his father who rejected him every time, Vegeta realizing his arrogance had only worsened everyone around him, Gohan accepting his low self-esteem and finding the motivation to overcome it, Goku trying to push out Gohan's internal power he struggles to control, Goku realizing that Gohan didn't love fighting as he did and pushing him made him sadistic, Gohan fearing his own power and leading it to his father's death, Cell constantly outsmarting the Z-senshi, while they all had to fight as one to the death even though they were too weak... etc..

Then the Majin Vegeta arc is the summary of everything Vegeta was until now being useless to him, him while evil giving his life for his son's safety whom he rejected for so long.... then Goku telling him that his past kingdom is gone and he has to get over what he will never get over... until finally admitting that Goku regardless of his class will always be better than him because of his pure heart and honesty in mercy.... then Vegeta finally befriends him emotionally and thanks him for opening his eyes.

DBZ is a great story. Its just oversimplified in presentation.

DBZ has a lot depth when broken down, it just didnt explain it to you in constant monologues, flashbacks, flashbacks within flashbacks, and melodrama which Naruto was known for.. but even if DBZ was simplistic how would that make it a bad show? any 5 year-old can summerize what pokemon is and yet its engoyed by millions. Complexity does not mean depth. Convoluted narratives are what comes out of pretention. The only reason why DBZ feels empty is because of shows like Naruto where its constant reliance on melodrama and forced emotions make people assume that its the only way to expres it. It isnt. The only sagas that held back DBZ with its more apparent lack of complexity is the Buu saga. Buu and BoG are the only arcs that add nothing to the prior.

I was actually only disappointed with BoG because it feels like what you described DBZ to be.

[Draken]

The problem with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (but mostly Z) is that it's a below-average adaptation of a great comic. It's not even the filler that gets to me, it's that some of that filler is so hideously paced and downright lazy. And, really, since the piss-poor remasters for The Transformers, G.I. Joe, and Jem (only the latter of which was eventually replaced with the original finished versions of the episodes) have revealed just reams of atrocious camera work and animation by Toei for Sunbow, I can't help but hold Toei largely responsible for the bulk of the problems with Dragon Ball's initial adaptation.

We're talking about the manga, not the anime.

[Zephyr]

Except the comic too has all of the issues that I listed in my first post on this thread.

Does a comic with all of those issues sound good to you?

Your first post in the thread. Can we talk more about that? The bolded sentences you had there would be the premises of your main argument, while "Dragon Ball Z is objectively bad" is the conclusion of your main argument, correct? In logic, an argument, that contains premises which are false, is called "unsound". An argument, that contains premises which do not logically lead to the conclusion, is called "invalid".

Let's address each one of your premises.

A repetitive, overly simplistic story

I'll agree that the story does not have a very diverse plot formula. I'd accept this as a valid premise for the conclusion that "Dragon Ball Z is imperfect".

Characters range from being one-dimensional to two-dimensional

I'll agree with this. The characters seem pretty one-note. Same as above, leads to "Dragon Ball Z is imperfect".

Making everyone who isn't a Saiyan useless

This is simply not true. A false premise. Non-Saiyan characters have a lot of roles to play, and are made use of. A lot of the time non-Saiyan characters are the most powerful protagonists on the battlefield. Unsound premise.

Plot holes and inconsistencies

While this is true of Dragon Ball Z, this is also true of a lot of things. This does indeed render said story "imperfect", but does it automatically render it "objectively bad"? I mean, if you're willing to put the same line of reasoning of "imperfection = objectively bad" for every work of fiction you wish to assess, then we can certainly accept said line of reasoning as a valid premise here. Otherwise, I don't see how it can be. I'd assume one wouldn't want to use that line of reasoning. This leads to "Dragon Ball Z is imperfect".

Far too heavy of a reliance on characters making stupid decisions just to move the plot forward

This is indeed true. However, it makes plenty of sense from an in-universe perspective. In the universe that the story is being told, the characters being stupid makes sense. Whether or not a story is rendered good or bad by its protagonists possessing terrible decision making skills is entirely subjective. The acceptable and explainable behavior of the characters being one of the things that pushes the plot along does not render the work "objectively bad". This premise does not appear to logically lead to the conclusion.

Deus Ex Machinas

I'll agree with this criticism, to an extent. By the time the Buu arc comes around, though, it's incredibly self-aware of itself, and pokes fun at itself for its over-reliance on it. But due to the amount of times the plot device is used before it ever gets made fun of, I see no reason this shouldn't be treated as a valid premise for "Dragon Ball Z is imperfect".

Death Meaning Nothing

Semi-valid premise. For the Saiyan arc, death does carry consequence. Sure, characters can be revived, but only once. It's only after the Namek arc that we experience, from the get-go, the idea that people can be revived multiple times. So the Artificial Humans arc definitely is guilty of this. When we get to the Buu arc though, we're introduced to the idea that dying while in the Afterlife results in complete and utter decimation of your soul. Hefty. So this is valid for like, part of Z? but only 1/4. And as for the Dragon Balls, sure, they can be used. But only as long as an incredibly weak green dude is alive. And for the first 2 and a half arcs of Z, one of the incredibly weak green dude's life force is tied to Piccolo, who is very frequently putting his life in danger. Due to all of this, I can't for the life of me see this as a valid premise for "Dragon Ball Z is imperfect".

So if we move on from there, we have:

- Dragon Ball Z has a repetitive, overly simplistic story
- Dragon Ball Z is filled with one-dimensional and two-dimensional characters
- Dragon Ball Z contains plot holes and inconsistencies
- Dragon Ball Z relies heavily on Deus Ex Machinas
- Therefore, Dragon Ball Z is an imperfect narrative.

That is a very acceptable argument. However, if you tried to do this:

- Dragon Ball Z has a repetitive, overly simplistic story
- Dragon Ball Z is filled with one-dimensional and two-dimensional characters
- Dragon Ball Z contains plot holes and inconsistencies
- Dragon Ball Z relies heavily on Deus Ex Machinas
- Therefore, Dragon Ball Z is objectively bad.

...then I can't quite see this as an acceptable argument. You're missing a premise. Said premise being the one that dictates, mathematically, logically, exactly what forms, combinations, degrees, and extents of imperfection(s) render something "objectively bad".

And I can't help but come back to the point of "it's not meant to be a complex story". It's really not. It's shonen. It has very simplistic goals. The fact that it uses a simple story with simple characters, doesn't make it bad. Hell, it doesn't even necessarily make it imperfect. Would you consider Green Eggs and Ham to be objectively bad? It's repetitive and has prety flat characters when compared to Breaking Bad. But who would consider it "objectively bad"? It's not failing to meet its established goals or anything. Same with Dragon Ball. And if we're to accept this line of reasoning, then we have to remove those first two premises. Meaning the only argument left that we can make with the points you've made in the original post is:

- Dragon Ball Z contains plot holes and inconsistencies
- Dragon Ball Z relies heavily on Deus Ex Machinas
- Therefore, Dragon Ball Z is objectively imperfect.

...and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. They can't disagree with that. That is a factual argument. It is valid. It is sound. But that's all that can be made in terms of objectivity.

Thinking that a story for kids is "bad" because it happens to be simplistic is subjective opinion. Thinking that the story is "bad" because the characters are, believably, dumb is subjective opinion. Thinking that the story is "bad" because characters of one fictional-species get more of a spotlight due to their in-universe-explained combative superiority over other species is subjective opinion. Thinking that the story is "bad" because death isn't given as much consequence as it is in the real world is subjective opinion.

[Insertclevername]

Just throwing this out there but Dragon Ball really isn't filled with one and two dimensional characters. They may be simple but that doesn't mean they're completely devoid of any kind of depth. Maybe more so on the villains but there are exceptions like with Vegeta.

[GarrettCRW]

We're talking about the manga, not the anime.

The idea never crossed my mind, because as I said, it's a great comic. Compared to other books that I really enjoy (Strangers in Paradise, which really lost its way around the 30th-50th issues of its third volume, comes to mind), DB's flaws are far less of an issue.

[Tanooki Kuribo]

And these are the reasons I currently remember as to why DBZ is objectively bad. Show DBZ to anyone who has studied extensively in the study of quality literature, and they will laugh right in your face.

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

So... why are you even here? I'm not trying to sound mean but, you seem to really hate DragonBall.

The way you word this makes it sound so belittling to anyone who watches the show. We've talked about it's flaws in the past through different threads, all of those were fine. This though, it just seems really negative. It's like you're trying to get a reaction out of people.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

The way you word this makes it sound so belittling to anyone who watches the show. We've talked about it's flaws in the past through different threads, all of those were fine. This though, it just seems really negative. It's like you're trying to get a reaction out of people.

The fact that the majority of his posts on this forum are dedicated to this subject does make me a little suspicious.

Pretty sure he does like the series, though. I can kinda see what he's getting at, but the way he seems to present and push these view points...it does seems to get under the skin of a lot members. There are definitely more positive spins you can put on a discussion like this.

[Metalwario64]

C-could it be that Kenshi has returned? I remember he said he hated DB right before he left. I'd love to see more of those spaghetti monster drawings.

[Bussani]

Deus Ex Machinas
The RoSaT, fusion, SSJ3, and pretty much everything else in the Buu saga are major deus ex machinas. DeM's tend to kill the beleivability of stories, even ones as ridiculous as DBZ's.

I just wanted to focus on this point for a second. Do these even count as Deus Ex Machinas? A character having a new trick up their sleeve after training for years doesn't seem very Deus Ex Machina to me--especially if it doesn't actually solve the current crisis. And you list Avatar: The Last Airbender as an "objectively good" show, but a lot of people feel that the ending of its third and final season had a Deus Ex Machina, if not two.

Dragon Ball does have examples of "bad writing practice"--things that writers should try to avoid. However, does having bad writing practices in a story automatically make the story bad as a whole? I don't really think so, and that's where things start getting subjective. I guess I feel that a story can have objectively bad elements to it, but whether it works as a whole is very subjective.

[Akumaito Beam]

I don’t disagree with your opinion that once Z rolled around the series took a massive irredeemable nose dive for a plethora of reasons. I honestly think story telling wise the series should have ended with the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and maybe Dead Zone as a nice little capper. I still read Z from time to time just due to nostalgia and because it’s still sprinkled with some pretty decent ideas I can enjoy to some extent. The Freeza saga suffers from the same issue of ‘bigger is always better’ fanservice that the rest of Z does but the suspenseful touch and go nature with the Dragonball race during the earlier portion of Namek was fun. The Ginyu Special Corps. and Freeza himself are also pretty cool vilians.

Anyway I guess what I’m trying to say is if you’re anything like me you probably still enjoy Z to some extent because it’s sprinkled with the charm you like from the original series even if on a whole it’s generally not your thing.

[DBZAOTA482]

Since we've gone this far I think it's appropriate I give my 2 cents:

A repetitive, overly simplistic story
Ever saga in DBZ follows the same basic formula: Bad guy shows up, good guys get there ass beaten, good guys train, Goku beats bad guy (excluding Cell Games). This would not be such a problem if DBZ provided some sort of depth and complexity for each saga that helped to separate themselves more form the basic formula. But no, that's far from the case. Instead, we get barebones stories that only show off this issue more than DBZ already was.

Now here's a complaint I've never quite understood of the series (repetition). I mean, concepts are definitely recycled (mainly during the Majin Boo Saga) but there are many obscure elements. Namek Saga had the big cat-and-mouse search game between Freeza's henchmen, Vegeta, and Gohan and Kuririn. Artificial Human/Cell Saga also had time travel (poorly handled it may or may not be), the jinzoningen using their lack of natural energy source and ability to absorb to their advantage, and Cell being a crafty-ass villain.

I also think people have too much of a problem with simplistic storylines. And it's not like the series aimed to have a particular deeper meaning. It was just aiming to be a simple, classical story of "Good vs. Evil" for the purpose of entertaining.

Characters range from being one-dimensional to two-dimensional
DBZ's philosophies are very black and white, and the characters themselves almost never deviate from the traits that they're introduced with. (Ex: Goku) The fact that not a single character can be considered three-dimensional or more in the story is pitiful, and it goes to show that Toriyama hardly put any effort into making them. Even when character's do experience some kind of development, it usually feels forced and unnatural (like Piccolo's relationship with Gohan, Vegeta and Bulma having a kid, etc.)

Gohan (maybe), Vegeta, Piccolo, Freeza, Future Trunks (maybe) are often seen as three-dimensional characters, even among people who don't particularly like the series or consider it good. Second, like someone else mentioned Goku isn't supposed the type of character who battles any sort of personal demons and with no ulterior motive beyond getting stronger. The story isn't really how he changes but rather how he affects the people around him (though he did have that little character development where he learns to embrace his saiyan heritage).

I'll granted you that the characters aren't really complicate but they're well-defined (most of them) and do make you care about what happens to them. That's all that really matters (to me).

Making everyone who isn't a Saiyan useless
This one is pretty self-explanatory. A good story knows how to properly balance the relevance of each character. DBZ does not do this.

I'll give you this one, the use of most of the non-Saiyan cast leaves a lot to be desired (even Gohan gets screwed over halfway through the Majin Boo Saga) though it wasn't that big of a problem in early Sagas. In fact Piccolo and Kuririn were top players during the Saiyan and Namek/Freeza Sagas. It's only in the later Sagas (the later portion of the Cell Saga and especially the Majin Boo Saga) where the less than favorable treatment becomes really notable.

Plot holes and inconsistencies
Vegeta saying self-inflicted wounds don't start Zenkai's despite Goku previously doing so, Freeza knowing the dragon he saw as he was heading towards Gohan and the others was Porunga despite having practically no knowledge of how the Dragon Balls worked, time travel in general producing plot holes, Cell surviving Goku's IT Kamehameha despite his entire upper body getting blown off, and God knows how many more. Does a story with countless amounts of plot holes seem like a good story to you?

Very few stories are without plot holes and inconsistencies. For example, the critically acclaimed Breaking Bad has several jarring plot holes and inconsistencies. Plus you're exaggerating the quantity of how many are in it.

Far too heavy of a reliance on characters making stupid decisions just to move the plot forward
Goku letting Vegeta go was stupid. Freeza ignoring Dende as he flew past him was stupid. Krillin never using the Kienzan + Taiyoken combo was stupid. Letting Gero create the androids was stupid. Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect form was stupid. Goku not telling anyone about the RoSaT during the 3 year wait was stupid (although the RoSaT itself is a major deus ex machina). Goku not finishing off Fat Buu while he had the chance was stupid. Not saving time by teaching the fusion dance to Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT was stupid. A story should not have to rely so heavily on the stupidity of its characters.

A lot of these have something to do with the character's personalities. Saiyans are noted for their insane thirst for a challange and Goku, and especially Vegeta are no exception and Freeza is naturally overconfident. Second, the ROSAT can only be used twice in a lifetime and the living conditions are harsh.

The whole Fat Boo and Kienzan + Taiyoken parts is inexcusable though.

Deus Ex Machinas
The RoSaT, fusion, SSJ3, and pretty much everything else in the Buu saga are major deus ex machinas. DeM's tend to kill the beleivability of stories, even ones as ridiculous as DBZ's.

I'll grant you this one, though it's far from being the worst offender. *cough*Naruto*cough**cough* *cough*Bleach*cough*

Death Meaning Nothing
Thanks to the Dragon Balls, we know that anyone who dies can simply just be wished back to life, and this kills so much of the drama that you just end up not caring when someone dies.

Semi-valid argument. In the Saiyan Saga, you know the heroes can revive the fallen but death still had impact as there were repercussions (Shenlong can't repeat wishes). In the Namek/Freeza Saga, similar case (until the tail end of it). In the Cell Saga, not many died but the major deaths still had impact. The Majin Boo Saga is where death ceased to matter completely.

And these are the reasons I currently remember as to why DBZ is objectively bad. Show DBZ to anyone who has studied extensively in the study of quality literature, and they will laugh right in your face.

Like others said, there is no such thing as being "objectively bad". The proper saying is that "DBZ is of bad quality, objectively speaking" or whatever and it being bad is matter of opinion so don't say it like it's a fact. Also, I've "studied"
extensively in "quality literature" and I think it's a great series.

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

"Very few" is the understatement of the millennium considering the negative feedback you're getting.