"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[goku the krump dancer]

Quick question..

Being that this is a fighting/action-adventure series is beating someone the only way a character could be considered "useful"? I mean despite not really lifting a finger I'd say Piccolo was still pretty useful in the Boo arc with helping coach Goten,Trunks and Gotenks around as well as trying to keep Boo occupied while they trained.

[Kamiccolo9]

Quick question..

Being that this is a fighting/action-adventure series is beating someone the only way a character could be considered "useful"? I mean despite not really lifting a finger I'd say Piccolo was still pretty useful in the Boo arc with helping coach Goten,Trunks and Gotenks around as well as trying to keep Boo occupied while they trained.

Well, other characters have managed to be useful in the Cell and Buu Arcs.
Future Bulma made the time machine that Future Trunks used to save everyone.
Tien saved Dende from Buuhan.
Mr. Satan saved the universe.
Old Kaioshin powered up Gohan and provided the Potara earrings.
Kaio's telepathy enabled Vegeta, Goku, and Mr. Satan to form the Genki Dama.
Mr. Satan befriended Fat Buu, who was also essential in the final battle.
Piccolo and Krillin train Goten and Trunks to use the Fusion Dance.
Mr. Popo is the only one to suggest that the kids fuse in the first place.
Bulma is the one who knew where Gero's lab was.
Mr. Brief and Bulma reprogram 16, who's destruction resulted in Gohan ascending to SSJ2.
17 got more energy for the Genki Dama.
The people of Earth donated the power used to kill Buu. They were hardly useless.

I could easily come up with many more. The non-Saiyans were not "useless,' by any definition of the word, unless you consider all non-fighters to be "useless."

[DBZAOTA482]

Quick question..

Being that this is a fighting/action-adventure series is beating someone the only way a character could be considered "useful"? I mean despite not really lifting a finger I'd say Piccolo was still pretty useful in the Boo arc with helping coach Goten,Trunks and Gotenks around as well as trying to keep Boo occupied while they trained.

Well, other characters have managed to be useful in the Cell and Buu Arcs.
Future Bulma made the time machine that Future Trunks used to save everyone.
Tenshinhan saved Dende from Buuhan.
Mr. Satan saved the universe.
Old Kaioshin powered up Gohan and provided the Potara earrings.
Kaio's telepathy enabled Vegeta, Goku, and Mr. Satan to form the Genki Dama.
Mr. Satan befriended Fat Buu, who was also essential in the final battle.
Piccolo and Krillin train Goten and Trunks to use the Fusion Dance.
Mr. Popo is the only one to suggest that the kids fuse in the first place.
Bulma is the one who knew where Gero's lab was.
Mr. Brief and Bulma reprogram 16, who's destruction resulted in Gohan ascending to SSJ2.
17 got more energy for the Genki Dama.
The people of Earth donated the power used to kill Buu. They were hardly useless.

I could easily come up with many more. The non-Saiyans were not "useless,' by any definition of the word, unless you consider all non-fighters to be "useless."

Which also caused everything to go as bad as they did.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

The only issue I really have with DBZ are the ones that were mentioned which are somewhat agreeable.

Making everyone who isn't a Saiyan useless
A good story knows how to properly balance the relevance of each character. DBZ does not do this.

... and Battle of Gods worsens this expenentially so. The other movies at least gave the weaker fighters a struggle and often had their chance to land a hit. (Tree of might) the gap in character powers wasnt so great that only Goku has any relevance.

Deus Ex Machinas
The RoSaT, fusion, SSJ3, and pretty much everything else in the Buu saga are major deus ex machinas. DeM's tend to kill the beleivability of stories, even ones as ridiculous as DBZ's.

- The RoST wasnt a Deux Ex. It was a training room that already existed.
The only Deus Ex Machina that was legitamently BS to me by that definition was Kid Gohan. Somehow he can surpass everyone time and time again just by getting angry... and this hidden power nonsense was just ridiculous... Then ultimate Gohan being renouned as the strongest individual Z fighter preBoG was complete crap. He earned nothing he had and can't fight for beans. It was utterly pointless.

And these are the reasons I currently remember as to why DBZ is objectively bad. Show DBZ to anyone who has studied extensively in the study of quality literature, and they will laugh right in your face.

Genres exist for a reason, anyone looking for shonen would know what to expect from DBZ. Your setting the bar too high for a show that was always intended to bee easy-going and light-hearted.

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

DBZ at least isnt as pretentious as other modern anime in its genre. Its straightforward, easy to follow and easy to get into without having to learn too much of the background. Can you realy say that about Naruto or Bleach No. DBZ doesnt require you to start from episode 1 to learn nor does it drag on single-plot lines as long as they do.
emodrama doesnt = emotional depth. There are a lot of instances where Naruto tries so hard to force it out; but its downplayed because of the logic that often leads up to cringeworthy for how unrealistic it feels. Akira Toryiama often states he refrains from dwelling on emotional baggages in his storylines and hasnt.

Death Meaning Nothing
Thanks to the Dragon Balls, we know that anyone who dies can simply just be wished back to life, and this kills so much of the drama that you just end up not caring when someone dies.

This is a huge issue for the emotional triggers the story was trying to convey in the main series. For example Krillin's death being the trigger of Goku's SSJ form. I didnt feel any real movement by it at all and still cant because:
- hes died before and Goku got pissed off then (king piccolo) thus recycled and lost meaning.
- hes died or considered dead earlier in the Freeza arc already when Freeza impales him. The shock was left there.
- Piccolo's death on Namek was exactly the same as it was on Earth except far less emotionally conveying due to the redundancy.

I don't see Krillin as anyone that significant to really trigger any real emotional importance in me. He was already a throwaway.
IMO it should have been Gohan who Freeza killed for Goku to Go SSJ: Why?
- It would actually show he has actual paternal awareness
- He is a child / Chi-chi would also destroy him if he let it go.
- He is also part Saiyan; the racism inflicted on him would have made it more clear that Goku has to ascend in order to end it.


The only deaths that actually mattered to me and still left its mark on me were:
- Vegeta's, he's been murdered only once and was killed in a slow, painful and humiliating way.
- Future Gohan's was established as a struggle and died in a very torturous way... and stayed dead since. Thus the emotion stuck.
- Future Trunks (though only impactful in the dub due to Vegeta's actual concern for it.)
- Bardock's similar to Vegeta, he was suffering for his weakness to Freeza and wanted to change his fate but failed to make a difference.
(Him going SSJ just ruined it, his inferiority and prayer in his rejected son would one day save them all.)
- Cooler's death made me feel bad for him because his own ignorance, superiority complex and blind conceit had lead to his downfall because he let Goku escape Freeza's attack and his carelessness underestimating it ended up ending him. He may not be canon but he added more to the story than King Cold and Buu did....

[Kamiccolo9]

Quick question..

Being that this is a fighting/action-adventure series is beating someone the only way a character could be considered "useful"? I mean despite not really lifting a finger I'd say Piccolo was still pretty useful in the Boo arc with helping coach Goten,Trunks and Gotenks around as well as trying to keep Boo occupied while they trained.

Well, other characters have managed to be useful in the Cell and Buu Arcs.
Future Bulma made the time machine that Future Trunks used to save everyone.
Tenshinhan saved Dende from Buuhan.
Mr. Satan saved the universe.
Old Kaioshin powered up Gohan and provided the Potara earrings.
Kaio's telepathy enabled Vegeta, Goku, and Mr. Satan to form the Genki Dama.
Mr. Satan befriended Fat Buu, who was also essential in the final battle.
Piccolo and Krillin train Goten and Trunks to use the Fusion Dance.
Mr. Popo is the only one to suggest that the kids fuse in the first place.
Bulma is the one who knew where Gero's lab was.
Mr. Brief and Bulma reprogram 16, who's destruction resulted in Gohan ascending to SSJ2.
17 got more energy for the Genki Dama.
The people of Earth donated the power used to kill Buu. They were hardly useless.

I could easily come up with many more. The non-Saiyans were not "useless,' by any definition of the word, unless you consider all non-fighters to be "useless."

Which also caused everything to go as bad as they did.

Yeah, but the Saiyans did plenty of that too. Regardless, I fail to see how getting the bad guy to renounce killing people is "useless," by any meaning of the word.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Quick question..

Being that this is a fighting/action-adventure series is beating someone the only way a character could be considered "useful"? I mean despite not really lifting a finger I'd say Piccolo was still pretty useful in the Boo arc with helping coach Goten,Trunks and Gotenks around as well as trying to keep Boo occupied while they trained.

Aside from the fighters, the only characters that are really "useful" come in three categories:

1. The healers (Dende, etc.)
2. The creators/collectors of the Dragonballs (Kami, Nameks, Dende)
3. The characters who provide important information, backstory, and the occasional plot device (Bulma, Roshi in DB, later on Kaio, Kaioshins).

[WittyUsername]

I don't think anyone here really considers Dragon Ball as a whole to be a masterpiece by any means, it's just enjoyable to read/watch without thinking too much about it all.

[Flame Dragon]

Is there even something that can be defined "objectively bad" regarding writing?

I ask because i saw this happen a buttload of times:
Writer X does something that Fan Y doesn't like ="Fan Y says Writer X is a terrible writer"
Writer X does something that Fan Y likes="Fan Y says Writer X is an excellent writer"




Althrough i agree with the OP regarding many of the flaws he brought, i still think the end product is really enjoyable nonetheless.

[thatdbzguy]

I don't think anyone here really considers Dragon Ball as a whole to be a masterpiece by any means, it's just enjoyable to read/watch without thinking too much about it all.

If something requires you to turn your brain off in order to be enjoyable, that just proves it's bad.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't think anyone here really considers Dragon Ball as a whole to be a masterpiece by any means, it's just enjoyable to read/watch without thinking too much about it all.

If something requires you to turn your brain off in order to be enjoyable, that just proves it's bad.

Mindless fun is bad?
I also like how you are ignoring every other post in this thread. People have said why they enjoy it, and why it isn't "objectively bad." Do you have nothing to say to them?

[thatdbzguy]

I don't think anyone here really considers Dragon Ball as a whole to be a masterpiece by any means, it's just enjoyable to read/watch without thinking too much about it all.

If something requires you to turn your brain off in order to be enjoyable, that just proves it's bad.

Mindless fun is bad?

Mindless fun is fun, but not actual good literature.

[Kamiccolo9]

Mindless fun is fun, but not actual good literature.

Read the rest of my previous post.
And again, by who's standards are we judging whether or not it's good or bad literature? If it doesn't measure up to your standards, that's fine. That doesn't make something "objectively bad."

[Vice]

The only Deus Ex Machina that was legitamently BS to me by that definition was Kid Gohan. Somehow he can surpass everyone time and time again just by getting angry... and this hidden power nonsense was just ridiculous... Then ultimate Gohan being renouned as the strongest individual Z fighter preBoG was complete crap. He earned nothing he had and can't fight for beans. It was utterly pointless.

A Gohan fan being completely honest about him and his bullshit? I like that.

[Storm101]

Numerous people have posted massive walls of texts explaining their views on the issues brought up in the original post, but you just ignore everything and make posts that are only a sentence long. And this was after you complained that nobody that addressed them, thinking it was proof that DBZ is bad or something. I'd like to join this conversation, but I can't take you seriously at all.

[GsTvo]

I agreed until I saw this:

Far too heavy of a reliance on characters making stupid decisions just to move the plot forward
Goku letting Vegeta go was stupid. Freeza ignoring Dende as he flew past him was stupid. Krillin never using the Kienzan + Taiyoken combo was stupid. Letting Gero create the androids was stupid. Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect form was stupid. Goku not telling anyone about the RoSaT during the 3 year wait was stupid (although the RoSaT itself is a major deus ex machina). Goku not finishing off Fat Buu while he had the chance was stupid. Not saving time by teaching the fusion dance to Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT was stupid. A story should not have to rely so heavily on the stupidity of its characters.

Nothing in that "list" is stupid, thats just your opinion. In every story (not just anime or manga) or at least in 90% story's, things like that happen, is the method so that future events can happen, for example:

Goku letting Vegeta go was stupid: No, even Vegeta say it on Boo's arc. Goku likes fight, he don't search kill the enemy, he just want have some fun. So I want fight again with this guy, I will train hard and try again, its simple.

Freeza ignoring Dende as he flew past him was stupid: Why I will kill someone needlessly (assuming I'm Freeza)?, I have the Dragon Ball's, I just want ask my wish and destroy this planet. So I leave him live a little more.

Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect form was stupid: Come on! its Vegeta, you think that he could live with himself thinking "Mmm, Perfect Cell would be stronger than me?", "I'm the strongest man in the world, so why I have to be worried?"?. If Cell was good, Goku would act exactly like Vegeta.

It's personality discussions, and you're argument with your personality thoughts, so its not objective.

About the other points, its true what you say, but if the DBZ story is so repetitive, why so many people enjoy it? Because every arc adds something new. Freeza's arc: Super Saiyajin, fights on another planet. - Cell's arc: Androids, another Super Saiyajins: Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan, SSJ 2. - Boo's arc: A enemy with different personality, new characters (not just villians), SSJ 3, Fusion.

See? It's repetitive, but every arc integrates something new, that's why DBZ was so popular.

Making everyone who isn't a Saiyan useless
This one is pretty self-explanatory. A good story knows how to properly balance the relevance of each character. DBZ does not do this.

Agree, but you're especially referring about Yamcha, Ten Shin Han and Chaoz right?, Not enough with DB? Not enough with Saiyajin's arc? If you include the "Strongest race on the Universe" to your story, it's obviously that human race will be not able to keep up, so if youre not good, go away. Its totally normal.

And the balance between the DBZ's characters it's good, not like GT where Goku its all. In DBZ Goku is the main character, but Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo has place on the plot.

[Ninja Murasaki]

I think a better title is "DBZ isn't perfect."

[Zephyr]

I don't think anyone here really considers Dragon Ball as a whole to be a masterpiece by any means, it's just enjoyable to read/watch without thinking too much about it all.

If something requires you to turn your brain off in order to be enjoyable, that just proves it's bad.

It doesn't require you to turn your brain off. It requires that you hold it to the standards it is meant to meet.

Is it sloppily crafted? At times, yes. Does it contain plotholes? Of course. Is the plot somewhat repetitive? Definitely. But you're still not explaining to what extent something needs all of the above and more in order to go from "imperfect" to "bad".

[Draken]

And this guy still doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the word "objectively".

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

The only Deus Ex Machina that was legitamently BS to me by that definition was Kid Gohan. Somehow he can surpass everyone time and time again just by getting angry... and this hidden power nonsense was just ridiculous... Then ultimate Gohan being renouned as the strongest individual Z fighter preBoG was complete crap. He earned nothing he had and can't fight for beans. It was utterly pointless.

A Gohan fan being completely honest about him and his bullshit? I like that.

This is why I like Vegeta. (Reality gives him No Favours.)

This is why I despise Kid Gohan. (DBZ was his own Fanfic)

He is the reason "why DBZ is bad".

[Attitudefan]

"DBZ's plotline is so repetitive!" And yes, this is a quote from a fan. I never agreed with this complaint. Each saga in DBZ felt fresh and inventive to me. I guess people only pay attention to the whole "bad guy shows up and gets defeated" thing, which is not all each saga has ...

This is a quote by the same user who created this topic. I have to wonder if the same person is using this account or somebody else has taken over completely. Perhaps, just maybe, thatdbzguy has felt that he is a year older and a year wiser, therefore, his opinions have changed drastically!