Does anybody actually think that DBZ got better post-Namek?

[UpFromTheSkies]

What is your obsession with what other people think of DBZ's quality?

And yes; I know people who prefer the Cell and Buu arcs over everything else. My friend prefers them because she really like Vegeta and Trunks.

I'll just say that I'm too insecure to have my own opinions, and we'll leave it at that.

That's your opinion.

[DBZAOTA482]

I do think that the Cell arc is the worst stretch of the series, but the Buu arc is significantly better and its even better than some stuff previous to the Cell arc.

This is a fascinating post, I've re-read it a dozen times now.

Why? I like Dragon Ball's style and feel and Akira Toriyama's hand in it. The Cell arc is the most uncharacteristic portion of the series, where that style and feel is most absent. But the Buu arc has that style and feel back in full and I like it at least as much as some of the stuff previous to the Cell arc.

I still like the Cell arc, but its definitely my least favorite. Especially after Cell turns perfect... Up until then, at least the arc had left us guessing and the eerie feeling of Cell and the threat of the androids was actually good... But once Cell turns perfect, there's no android threat anymore and Cell is no longer eerie. In fact he no longer even knows what to do now that he has achieved his goal... so he organizes a tournament to prove how "badass" he is, him against anyone... Okay... And Gohan's personality and hesitation in the Cell games seems contrived and seems to exist just to add artificial tension and drama. Even Goku's decision to stay in the afterlife and telling them to not think of a way to revive him seems to suffer from this, we feel that its an unnatural way to create more drama.

Also, many fans criticize the Buu arc for its plotholes, but, honestly, the Cell arc also has plenty. At least in the Buu arc, the positives and the return of the Toriyama feel and fun counteract the existence of plotholes and make them less meaningful. In the Cell arc, that has a much serious nature and tries to build itself on a much more actual serious drama feeling, they stand out way more.

I kind of agree with you with Cell Saga losing something with the Cell Games but I disagree with the Majin Boo Saga having the Toriyama-sensei "feel" and "fun". Maybe at the start but the actual conflict felt ridiculous and overly long. I also disliked the ending.

Not to mention it has Kaioshin and Babidi in it.

[thatdbzguy]

What is your obsession with what other people think of DBZ's quality?

And yes; I know people who prefer the Cell and Buu arcs over everything else. My friend prefers them because she really like Vegeta and Trunks.

I'll just say that I'm too insecure to have my own opinions, and we'll leave it at that.

That's your opinion.

Then I guess I'll stop having that opinion.

[baneofdemon22]

I like the Boo Saga the best because it brought back more of the Dragon Ball Universe elements. One of my favorite scenes is with the two thugs taking advantage of Boo's destruction to shoot the innocent old couple. I loved every time a citizen interacted with Boo, which was really only seen with Imperfect Cell when he was at the air port, football bus, and first Piccolo encounter with the guy begging Piccolo to rescue him. I found the history of the Kai's and Boo's transformations in relation to them very interesting. All the Gohan stuff in the Great Saiyaman saga, I felt was the perfect progression for his character, and yearned for more of it, when it was over. There's so many things why it's my overall favorite Dragon Ball Saga.

It may go like this for me:
1. Boo Saga
2. King Piccolo Saga
3. Android/Cell Saga
4. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Tournament

It can change though, because I love every saga. I do get bored a lot during the Namek Saga though. Once the cat and mouse three race for the Dragon Balls with Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin, and Frieza starts to fade, it kind of goes down hill for me. I also got annoyed over Frieza having so many multiple forms and then each one have a different percentage of power. I could go into more problems, but I don't want to get off topic and anyways, why start picking at something I love?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Yes, although I prefer the Namek/Freeza saga over the cell Saga, the Buu saga is a different story. I love it! The whole fusion thing, super saiyan 3, the fact it has the most comedic moments out of the entire run of DBZ IMO. Yeah, it's great.

[rereboy]

I kind of agree with you with Cell Saga losing something with the Cell Games but I disagree with the Majin Boo Saga having the Toriyama-sensei "feel" and "fun". Maybe at the start but the actual conflict felt ridiculous and overly long. I also disliked the ending.

Nothing is more like Toriyama than being inherently goofy. That was almost always present in the fights of the Buu saga. And the changes of direction and unpredictable results of what happened in the arc are an incredible fun rollercoaster.

In a way, the Buu arc is even more Toriyama-like than the Piccolo, Saiyan and Namek arcs. However, those arcs, despite being more serious, still generally had goofy undertones to break the tension, the drama never reached the depths of the drama feel and seriousness that the Cell arc had, and had a better plot, direction, fights and even the tension and drama were better executed and more natural than in the Cell arc. Because of this, being more serious than the Buu saga doesn't really hurt those arcs at all.

In conclusion, I would say that the Dragon Ball feel is that mixture of Toriyama goofiness and fun with serious fighting and drama elements. Some arcs have more goofiness and some other have more seriousness, but almost always there's a balance, a mixture that balances itself well and gives us the Dragon Ball feel. The Cell arc is basically one of the only arcs where this mixture almost doesn't exist (its almost just a serious and drama feel) and it hurts that Dragon Ball feel.

This is why I stopped liking the Cell saga. Used to be my favorite saga, actually. But the more intelligent DBZ fans think its the worst, so I just can't bring myself to like it.

I cannot defend any of its flaws that the more intelligent fans point out, so why bother praising it?

How about having your own opinion...? I formed my own opinion on the Cell saga, I didn't reach those conclusions based on what anyone said. You should too.

[GsTvo]

I think that DBZ got better post-Namek, I'm a DBZ fan because Cell's Arc, it's better than Freeza's Arc for reasons like:

The Hero: In Freeza's Arc it's so obviously that Goku it's the almighty, his arrival to save Gohan (exactly like Saiyajin Arc. ), and after his recuperation, the arrival to the battlefield as the savior... it's so repetitive...

Instead in Cell's Arc, who's the hero? You can say Gohan but his arrogance made ​​Goku dies... Goku die for nothing... Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo... Pick anyone but the reasons are different compared to previous Arcs.

The Enemies: I respect everybody opinions, but who thinks that Ginyu Force are better than #16, #17 and #18? And not for power levels.

The Argument: There's a lot of similarities between Freeza and Cell's Arc, like Piccolo vs The Main Enemy, Vegeta's humiliating defeat (unlike this time he has the opportunity to defeat the enemy) or Goku recoveries... But Cell's Arc brings it back some Dragon Ball's basic elements (in this point Boo's Arc are the winner), like the tournament, the carefree attitude of Goku in difficult times combined with the amazing battle's between the characters (with amazing transformations) and Trunk's story (this made a lot better Cell's Arc, like Bardock made better Freeza's Arc).

Things like that make me say with no doubts that the best part of DBZ is Cell's Arc. And (for me) Boo's Arc is also better than Freeza's Arc.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

I think Dragon Ball Z gotten better beyond the Namek arc into Cell and Majin Boo story arcs. A scientist Dr Gero wanted revenge on Son Goku for destroying Red Ribbon Army, and evil wizard Babidi wants to resurrect Boo to use the monster to cause destruction and etc.

[thatdbzguy]

I kind of agree with you with Cell Saga losing something with the Cell Games but I disagree with the Majin Boo Saga having the Toriyama-sensei "feel" and "fun". Maybe at the start but the actual conflict felt ridiculous and overly long. I also disliked the ending.

Nothing is more like Toriyama than being inherently goofy. That was almost always present in the fights of the Buu saga. And the changes of direction and unpredictable results of what happened in the arc are an incredible fun rollercoaster.

In a way, the Buu arc is even more Toriyama-like than the Piccolo, Saiyan and Namek arcs. However, those arcs, despite being more serious, still generally had goofy undertones to break the tension, the drama never reached the depths of the drama feel and seriousness that the Cell arc had, and had a better plot, direction, fights and even the tension and drama were better executed and more natural than in the Cell arc. Because of this, being more serious than the Buu saga doesn't really hurt those arcs at all.

In conclusion, I would say that the Dragon Ball feel is that mixture of Toriyama goofiness and fun with serious fighting and drama elements. Some arcs have more goofiness and some other have more seriousness, but almost always there's a balance, a mixture that balances itself well and gives us the Dragon Ball feel. The Cell arc is basically one of the only arcs where this mixture almost doesn't exist (its almost just a serious and drama feel) and it hurts that Dragon Ball feel.

This is why I stopped liking the Cell saga. Used to be my favorite saga, actually. But the more intelligent DBZ fans think its the worst, so I just can't bring myself to like it.

I cannot defend any of its flaws that the more intelligent fans point out, so why bother praising it?

How about having your own opinion...? I formed my own opinion on the Cell saga, I didn't reach those conclusions based on what anyone said. You should too.

Why? Your opinion pretty much nails it. I can't refute it. So I'm just going to agree with you and not like the Cell saga the best anymore.

[rereboy]

Why? Your opinion pretty much nails it. I can't refute it. So I'm just going to agree with you and not like the Cell saga the best anymore.

I'm just saying that you have to think with your own head. You may agree with me or not. You may value other things in the Cell saga that make you prefer it over the others sagas, for example.

[thatdbzguy]

Why? Your opinion pretty much nails it. I can't refute it. So I'm just going to agree with you and not like the Cell saga the best anymore.

I'm just saying that you have to think with your own head. You may agree with me or not. You may value other things in the Cell saga that make you prefer it over the others sagas, for example.

Everything I valued in the saga just gets bashed by everybody else.

[rereboy]

So...? You should only care about your own preferences in your personal entertainment.

[thatdbzguy]

So...? You should only care about your own preferences in your personal entertainment.

Well, I don't.

[rereboy]

Then you will never have a opinion of your own or think for yourself, you will just have a reflexion of other people's ideas.

[thatdbzguy]

Then you will never have a opinion of your own or think for yourself, you will just have a reflexion of other people's ideas.

That's fine. I'll feel better that way.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Then you will never have a opinion of your own or think for yourself, you will just have a reflexion of other people's ideas.

That's fine. I'll feel better that way.

So, let me get this straight you hate the post-namek stuff purely because other people hate it? If, so that is a pretty moronic attitude to have. Who damn. cares what other people think? If you enjoy it, you enjoy it, end of. For example the Green Lantern movie gets more or less crapped upon, but I still enjoy it, I'm not going to start hating it purely because the majority of people hate it.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Why am I constantly filled with the feeling that I'd just be a happier fan if I ignored most of the threads like this...

I don't know about 'got better' post Namek, but I certainly have no real problems with the Androids & Cell/Boo arcs in general. They're both fine at doing what they were trying to achieve, and in particular the Androids/Cell stuff actually handles itself well considering how many different asspulls Toriyama had to do at the urging of editors and the like. My only real continuing problem there is the lack of buildup for Gohan taking center-stage, in that particular arc.

[Godo]

Well, the series overall didn't change much post-Namek, in my opinion.
All the arcs had some kind of red thread in Dragonball Z.

In DB, it was about Goku beating mostly Earthlings and later even a Demon with the aid of Kami himself. Goku grew in a way that humans were no longer a match to him, and he moved to defeating demons (think of how it would have been if the series continued this way!). The fun in this part of the series was both that Goku moved leagues forward for pretty much every chapter, and finally took the throne as the strongest Earthling in probably history (No, Olibu doesn't count).
Conclusion: Humans and demons

In the Saiya-jin arc it was about Goku's ancestry and beating his own kind. Going by Goku's feats in DB, where he was kind of invincible, it would be logical of him to pretty much fight an inverted character to himself. Vegeta was pretty much the opposite to Goku; relying on technology (whilst Goku really never used technology, apart from the Dragonball radar), being born a prince (whilst Goku was a low class nobody), being born the strongest of all Saiya-jins (whilst Goku was born the weakest. And no, Broly didn't exist yet.), having an underling by his side (whilst Goku having equals by his side), utilizing the Oozaru (whilst Goku kinda threw it away unknowingly). This goes on, in a marvelous battle, where your butt cheeks are pretty much clenched reading it the first time (all of Goku's bones are crushed, is he going to pull a headbutt like he did against Piccolo Jr.? Is all hope lost?). What Piccolo Jr. did against the Earthlings doesn't even measure to Vegeta's punishment given to the Earthlings. In itself, a great arc with many memorable moments.
Yes, Yajirobe, I do want to be your friend.
Conclusion: Saiya-jins and humans

In the Namek arc, after beating his own alien kind, Goku now had to beat the strongest Alien warrior in the Universe.
It starts off with the heroes meeting monster after monster, of which most are small fry compared to Vegeta. Near-death moment after near-death moment pile up while we see the heroes miraculously survive time and time again with both skill and luck. They climb a steep ladder where Freeza, the strongest warrior in the Universe, is at top.
When they finally reach it, they are filled with false hope that they are going to win. Thrice. And you get filled with false hope together with them.
Then Freeza's final form arrives. He isn't even using his full power, only a fraction. "I'll show you 50% of my power". What?! "I'll show you 100% of my power". God, Freeza looks badass.
Goku is definately going Super Saiya-jin. Wait for it...yep he is one. Oh, no my bad...there, now he is definately a Super Saiya-jin...ah nope, he doesn't have the cruel heart of a Super Saiya-jin. Oh my God, Kuririn, you died again, you hilarious bastard! OOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo! Look at you Goku you handsome badass blonde devil!
In a sense these primitive Earthlings together with the almost extinct Saiya-jins show up and (excuse my language) fuck up the sound-set belief of a whole intergalactic organization with their power changing, their techniques and their power sensing, and also their top-tier power. And they manage to kill off all of their strongest fighters. 4 people (excluding Piccolo here).
It doesn't get better than that.
Conclusion: Saiya-jins and other aliens

In the Android arc, Freeza returns! But he is killed easily by...that mysterious Super Saiya-jin...could have sworn I saw him in a boy band...now he wants to talk to Goku...oh shit, Goku and the others actually die in the future...WHAT, HE IS VEGETA AND BULMA'S SON?
Oh, and the first villains we see are and old man and a mime. No kidding. I mean, seriously. And they are easily killed. After kicking Goku's ass.
Then Trunks comes and is like "These are not the droids you are looking for". Crap, what did they work so hard for?
And out emerges two teens and the most badass pure android. And they kick ass. The ultimately awesome Super Saiya-jin (nega Goku) Vegeta is crushed like a cockroach. And you loved it, considering what a douche he was earlier in the arc.
But suddenly, the whole story is interrupted by an ugly party pooper. Sure, he doesn't stand a match against Piccolo, but apparently he can become much stronger. And a sneaky bastard he is, and you yearn for his capture and disposal.
Piccolo and Cyborg 17 kick it off in a raw battle, with bulging spines, but 17 gets absorbed? Sure, OK, now Cell looks less than a cockroach and like...a...frog? Kill him already. Stop it, Vegeta. Oh, god damn it Vegeta.
Now they have to kill off Earth's and the Universe's strongest creation yet! And he is Perfect!
Goku doesn't make it here either! Gohan takes the show, showing us the most badass SSJ2 to this date, which no fanartist yet has had the possibility to outdraw. And he wins, and takes the torch...
Conclusion: The universe's perfect warrior and Saiya-jins

In comes the Great Saiya-man! He is goofy! He is funny! He kicks ass!
And here comes Mr. Satan! Funnier and goofier than ever!
Look, Goku got a clone, and Trunks is back, but has shrunk! And even they are funny and goofy and kick ass! They fuse and 100 times the goof and kickassery!
Vegeta returns to evil, and is in many ways a true badass.
Wait, Gohan matures...and becomes a badass.
Only a SSJ3 can look badass without eyebrows.
Wow, Buu in every way and form is kind of a goof...and a badass to boot. And pretty magical. Makes sense now that the heroes defeat the ultimate creature designed with the DNA of the top fighters of Earth and the Universe.
Oh, sorry, I forgot, no one on the above list can even measure to the badassery of Vegetto.
YEEEEEAH ULTIMATE FULL POWER UNIVERSAL GENKI-DAMA! WOOO!
Conclusion: Saiya-jins and "demons"

In the battle of Gods we have: The universe's perfect demon and Saiya-jins.

My next bet is a follow up movie with The universe's perfect demon alien vs. the human Saiya-jin.

My conclusion: Even if I enjoy reading the Freeza arc the most, I don't technically believe that any arc is inferior to an other. If if comes to the anime, though, the Garlic Jr. arc takes the cake.

[thatdbzguy]

Then you will never have a opinion of your own or think for yourself, you will just have a reflexion of other people's ideas.

That's fine. I'll feel better that way.

So, let me get this straight you hate the post-namek stuff purely because other people hate it? If, so that is a pretty moronic attitude to have. Who damn. cares what other people think? If you enjoy it, you enjoy it, end of. For example the Green Lantern movie gets more or less crapped upon, but I still enjoy it, I'm not going to start hating it purely because the majority of people hate it.

Not following intelligent opinions of intelligent people is moronic.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Not following intelligent opinions of intelligent people is moronic.

An argument could be made against that too. I for one would rather be a dumb original than, say, a genius sheep.