How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Goku

[hleV]

I believe that Oob only shown his true power with that last kiai which tore Goku's clothes and after which they didn't fight anymore.

[kuartus4]

I believe that Oob only shown his true power with that last kiai which tore Goku's clothes and after which they didn't fight anymore.

I agree, and if base Goku was not around oob's true power level, which was kid buu tier, then that kiai would have done a lot more than just tear Goku's clothes.

[hleV]

... That's not what I had in mind. Because there's no way Goku has become 400x stronger in 10 years when he had hardly improved in the 7 years before. I believe that Oob powered up when he threw that kiai, but the kiai itself wasn't that strong, keeping in mind that it came from someone who didn't know what he was doing. That might be part of the reason why Goku said that "you're as amazing as I expected" and yet didn't fight anymore.

[kuartus4]

... That's not what I had in mind. Because there's no way Goku has become 400x stronger in 10 years when he had hardly improved in the 7 years before.

Yes there is. I believe EoZ Goku is actually Mystic Goku. Refer to the OP. Base Goku being kid buu tier is basically undeniable.

Goku expected a human with pure buu's strength. And he got what he wanted.



Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”


Goku brought out Oob's true ability and that confirmed who oob was. Kid buu. His true ability was obviously the stregth he had as kid buu, which goku had felt before. Goku confirmed who oob was by feeling his power through that kiai, meaning the kiai had the power of pure buu. And base goku withstood it. If someone who is only Freeza tier gets hit by a kid buu tier kiai, then the Freeza tier fellow will be obliterated. I think that should go without saying. Hence, EoZ Base Goku is pure buu tier. Its basically confirmed fact. And the only way I know to make sense of that is to Postulate that EoZ Goku is actually Mystic Goku. Refer to my first post.

[hleV]

But I don't see the evidence... Just your own interpretation of evidence. You emphasize one sentence, but completely ignore the one that follows.

[Draken]

So we can nitpick and forget the "But you don't know how to use your power" sentence now?

[kuartus4]

But I don't see the evidence... Just your own interpretation of evidence. You emphasize one sentence, but completely ignore the one that follows.

The following sentence doesnt contradict anything I said. Oob's kiai was brought out by his rage. Meaning it was involuntary. He could not pull out ki attacks at will. Plus he coudn't even fly. He could not control his power. Which does not lend support to oob's kiai being weak. What made Goku realize oob was kid buu was oob's ability(i.e what he can do), which can only refer to oob's kiai, since thats the only thing oob did that convinced goku he was dealing with kid buu.

[Kamiccolo9]

But I don't see the evidence... Just your own interpretation of evidence. You emphasize one sentence, but completely ignore the one that follows.

The following sentence doesnt contradict anything I said. Oob's kiai was brought out by his rage. Meaning it was involuntary. He could not pull out ki attacks at will. Plus he coudn't even fly. He could not control his power. Which does not lend support to oob's kiai being weak. What made Goku realize oob was kid buu was oob's ability(i.e what he can do), which can only refer to oob's kiai, since thats the only thing oob did that convinced goku.

Krillin sensed Cell's full power when Cell kicked him. Seeing as Cell obviously wasn't using his full power when he kicked Krillin, why would Uub have to be using his full power for Goku to sense his?

[kuartus4]

But I don't see the evidence... Just your own interpretation of evidence. You emphasize one sentence, but completely ignore the one that follows.

The following sentence doesnt contradict anything I said. Oob's kiai was brought out by his rage. Meaning it was involuntary. He could not pull out ki attacks at will. Plus he coudn't even fly. He could not control his power. Which does not lend support to oob's kiai being weak. What made Goku realize oob was kid buu was oob's ability(i.e what he can do), which can only refer to oob's kiai, since thats the only thing oob did that convinced goku.

Krillin sensed Cell's full power when Cell kicked him. Seeing as Cell obviously wasn't using his full power when he kicked Krillin, why would Uub have to be using his full power for Goku to sense his?

You got me there.

[hleV]

Oob doesn't know how to use ki at all. He powered up by getting angry, yes, but can he also efficiently use ki techniques now? Because to me it looks that the kiai was just a side effect of the power up, and wasn't that strong at all. (Remember how Imperfect Cell shot a weak Kamehameha.)

[Xeogran]

I believe we can freely say that End of Z Goku in Full Power is atleast = Birus if not > Birus. Because if there will ever be a continuation to Battle of Gods (which would powerup Goku more), it certaintly wouldn't happen during or even after End of Z saga. They don't want to touch and change what has been finished (Like revealing the future of Goku and Uub after they flied off)

End of Z Goku is HIIIIGH there on the tier list.

[Draken]

I believe we can freely say that End of Z Goku in Full Power is atleast = Bills if not > Bills. Because if there will ever be a continuation to Battle of Gods (which would powerup Goku more), it certaintly wouldn't happen during or even after End of Z saga. They don't want to touch and change what has been finished (Like revealing the future of Goku and Uub after they flied off)

End of Z Goku is HIIIIGH there on the tier list.

AT said the best shape the characters were ever in was during the time setting of BoG, meaning age and such started affecting Goku and Vegeta, likely lowering or at least keeping them at their current power.

[Xeogran]

I believe we can freely say that End of Z Goku in Full Power is atleast = Bills if not > Bills. Because if there will ever be a continuation to Battle of Gods (which would powerup Goku more), it certaintly wouldn't happen during or even after End of Z saga. They don't want to touch and change what has been finished (Like revealing the future of Goku and Uub after they flied off)

End of Z Goku is HIIIIGH there on the tier list.

AT said the best shape the characters were ever in was during the time setting of BoG, meaning age and such started affecting Goku and Vegeta, likely lowering or at least keeping them at their current power.

I don't really think he was thinking about after BoG events. Goku and Vegeta must have been training even a day or two after Birus invasion, which would already put them few numbers higher. They wouldn't be doing nothing after Birus, it's completley not in character and this statement could even deny possible BoG continuation.

[Draken]

I believe we can freely say that End of Z Goku in Full Power is atleast = Bills if not > Bills. Because if there will ever be a continuation to Battle of Gods (which would powerup Goku more), it certaintly wouldn't happen during or even after End of Z saga. They don't want to touch and change what has been finished (Like revealing the future of Goku and Uub after they flied off)

End of Z Goku is HIIIIGH there on the tier list.

AT said the best shape the characters were ever in was during the time setting of BoG, meaning age and such started affecting Goku and Vegeta, likely lowering or at least keeping them at their current power.

I don't really think he was thinking about after BoG events. Goku and Vegeta must have been training even a day or two after Birus invasion, which would already put them few numbers higher. They wouldn't be doing nothing after Birus, it's completley not in character and this statement could even deny possible BoG continuation.

Training doesn't always improve your strength past the best condition you were ever in in your life. If an 80 year old man started getting in shape for a marathon would he be as fast as he was 50 years ago as an elite athlete?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob (who was as strong as Pure Boo, and Goku had a chance against him, unlike with Beerus), so I doubt he is strong enough to take on Beerus. So, until we get something new, I'll assume that Beerus is still stronger by the end of the manga.

[Xeogran]

Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob

At base only.

Training doesn't always improve your strength past the best condition you were ever in in your life. If an 80 year old man started getting in shape for a marathon would he be as fast as he was 50 years ago as an elite athlete?

So what would happen in the next possible movie, in your opinion? Would it be Beerus kicking the heroes asses Part 2 ? In my opinion, this stamenets is true when it comes to pre BoG events, not after it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

At base only.

If the Saiyans were only planning to use their base form, then Goku wouldn't say to Goten that he would beat Mr. Boo in his match if he had trained. Goku expected a guy with power big enough to beat everyone in the tournament, but with Goku having possibilities to win as well. And since his fight with Oob was going to be like a Goku vs Pure Boo rematch, he would use Super Saiyan 3.

So what would happen in the next possible movie, in your opinion? Would it be Beerus kicking the heroes asses Part 2 ? In my opinion, this stamenets is true when it comes to pre BoG events, not after it.

The last time Goku met his friends was 5 years before the 28th TB, which is when BoG took place. So, the next movie (or whatever we get) should either take place shortly after BoG, or after the end of the manga.

[rereboy]

Goku knows that he is the reincarnation of Buu but he has no idea what kind of power he will unleash in the tournament. If he used the same power that Kid Buu had, it would very possible to win even against SSJ3 Goku. That's why he states that he might even win.

But as we saw in the fight, Uub doesn't do anything necessarily above base Goku, which makes sense because he is still a kid with no training, but its more than enough to see his huge potential.

[MDSTSSJ]

He can get stronger and all, but BOG was as strong as he was ever going to be, and his base was still weaker than Freeza there, so he's not likely to improve significantly at all. I think EoZ Goku is only equal to Pure Buu in SS3.

SS3 Goku (Buu)- 32.4
SS3 Goku (BOG)- 38
SS3 Goku (EoZ)- 36
Pure Buu- 36

How come EoZ SSJ3 Goku is weaker than his BoG SSJ3?? Boo Arc Kakarotto is in the beginning/middle of his prime as well as EoZ and DBGT.

According to your list, EoZ SSJ3 Goku should be 40 at least!

He didn't actually do anything in base to prove he was above Pure Buu. Not only would such a thing be completely and utterly ridiculous considering how little power he gained when he was younger and training in the afterlife, but Toriyama himself says BOG base Goku > EoZ base Goku. And that Goku is weaker than Freeza.

We are agree that base Goku can not defeat enraged Oob ( who is strong as 10 years a go Pure Boo ).

Where do you get that BoG base Goku is weaker than himself in the EoZ? Again, Kakarotto is still in the beginning/middle of his prime at that time. Toriyama said that Kakarotto and the others are at their limits but suddenly Bills says that Goku has immeasurable power. You can not have an immeasurable power if you are in your limits, never!

What? Statements from the actual author of the Dragon Ball manga are overridden by a plothole laden movie? How does that make any sense?

Toriyama was involved almost in the entire creation of the film and we have Kakarotto inmeasurable power >>>>> Goku is in its limits said by Toriyama!

Oooor Mr. Buu just has a chance of beating EoZ SS3 Goku. That's perfectly plausible going by Goku's stamina issues and their respective fights with Pure Buu.

But you guys always forget that Goku knows to perfection the power, the strengths and weaknesses of any form of Boo. After 10 years, Goku is able to know how to beat Pure Boo, Mr. Boo and even more Oob ( because he can not regenerate ) more easily. Goku is the smartest when it refers to fights and it seems some of you always tend to ignore that on purpose.

Pure Boo beat the hell up Mr. Boo in a bare hands combat because Pure Boo is far stronger than Mr. Boo and Pure Boo is a bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku due the stamina issues, nothing else.

Yeah, there is. Training should barley make him any stronger, and I firmly believe that both Mr. Buu and Pure Buu could beat him normally back in the Buu Saga.

Again, you are taking Goku as a fool and it bothers me a little my friend. Some of you must begin to recognize that Goku is far from being a fool in fights technics and ways to exceed his limits as demonstrated in the entire series

Again, Kakarotto knows to perfection the power, the strengths and weaknesses of Mr. Boo and Pure Boo.

EoZ SSJ3 against Mr. Boo: Kakarotto is far stronger than Mr. Boo so there is the possibility that SSJ3 Goku beat him only with hard punches like Pure Boo did to him or Super Kamehameha and bye Mr. Boo.

EoZ SSJ3 against Pure Boo: I have Goku stronger than Pure Boo however, I see a similar fight as they did in the Boo saga but Goku has the advantage winning the fight without much trouble.

EoZ SSJ3 against full enraged Oob ( total control of his ki ): I have Kakarotto stronger than Oob. Similar to the above fight but Oob can't regenerate and not have the same stamina than Pure Boo. Oob would lose badly!

[RandomGuy96]

How come EoZ SSJ3 Goku is weaker than his BoG SSJ3?? Boo Arc Kakarotto is in the beginning/middle of his prime as well as EoZ and DBGT.

According to your list, EoZ SSJ3 Goku should be 40 at least!

Because Toriyama said everyone was at "maximum strength" in BOG, and specifically said that he set the movie here instead of the EoZ (where everyone was "too old") for that reason.

We are agree that base Goku can not defeat enraged Oob ( who is strong as 10 years a go Pure Boo ).

Where do you get that BoG base Goku is weaker than himself in the EoZ? Again, Kakarotto is still in the beginning/middle of his prime at that time. Toriyama said that Kakarotto and the others are at their limits but suddenly Bills says that Goku has immeasurable power. You can not have an immeasurable power if you are in your limits, never!

1. Toriyama

2. Characters are fallible. The author is not. Toriyama said they're at their maximum, so they are.

Toriyama was involved almost in the entire creation of the film and we have Kakarotto inmeasurable power >>>>> Goku is in its limits said by Toriyama!

No, we have EOZ Goku < BOG Goku = maximum said by Toriyama.

But you guys always forget that Goku knows to perfection the power, the strengths and weaknesses of any form of Boo. After 10 years, Goku is able to know how to beat Pure Boo, Mr. Boo and even more Oob ( because he can not regenerate ) more easily. Goku is the smartest when it refers to fights and it seems some of you always tend to ignore that on purpose.

Pure Boo beat the hell up Mr. Boo in a bare hands combat because Pure Boo is far stronger than Mr. Boo and Pure Boo is a bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku due the stamina issues, nothing else.

Actually, Pure Buu vs Goku and Pure Buu vs Mr. Buu weren't all that different. Goku landed five hits on Pure Buu, Mr. Buu landed three. The hits seemed to have similar effects; ki blasts tear off whatever part of Pure Buu they hit, leave a surprised face, and burn marks. Hits just give the standard "ow" face and make him mad. The only difference is that when Goku began to tire out and drop in effectiveness from injuries, Vegeta bailed him out. No one bailed out Mr. Buu.

Actually, what Goku says at the end of the fight, as well as Pure Buu's general attitude in their battle and the ease with which he defeated Goku, heavily implies he's just stronger in addition to being better at everything else.

Again, you are taking Goku as a fool and it bothers me a little my friend. Some of you must begin to recognize that Goku is far from being a fool in fights technics and ways to exceed his limits as demonstrated in the entire series

I don't get what that has to do with anything. Relating to Buu, all we know about his expertise in fighting Majins is that he said he could beat one and then failed miserably when he tried.

Again, Kakarotto knows to perfection the power, the strengths and weaknesses of Mr. Boo and Pure Boo.

But they'd have no weaknesses; Pure Buu is simply better than Goku at everything.

EoZ SSJ3 against Mr. Boo: Kakarotto is far stronger than Mr. Boo so there is the possibility that SSJ3 Goku beat him only with hard punches like Pure Boo did to him or Super Kamehameha and bye Mr. Boo

That's possible. But it's just as possible that Mr. Buu could just use his Majin durability to outlast Goku's rather pathetically short SS3 limit, and then roflstomp SS2 Goku.

EoZ SSJ3 against Pure Boo: I have Goku stronger than Pure Boo however, I see a similar fight as they did in the Boo saga but Goku has the advantage winning the fight without much trouble.

I have them the same strength. But even if I didn't: Goku said that a form of Pure Buu without the body manipulation, technique copying, regeneration, and magic could beat him. I think it goes without saying that someone with all those abilities would be able to do so, especially considering how much of a drain SS3 is. Even on the very rare chance that he wins, it definitely won't be without much trouble.

EoZ SSJ3 against full enraged Oob ( total control of his ki ): I have Kakarotto stronger than Oob. Similar to the above fight but Oob can't regenerate and not have the same stamina than Pure Boo. Oob would lose badly!

As said, Goku implied Uub could still beat him. He'd hardly 'lose badly'.