What if Toriyama never created the Cell saga?

[Ajay]

I have to agree.

I think there's a difference between looking critically at something and straight up sitting and there and bashing it as though it's the worst thing to ever happen.

[thatdbzguy]

I have to ask. Are you trying to bring your one and only Holy Truth to Kanzenshuu or something like that?
I think that I haven't seen you write anything that isn't "Cell Saga/DBZ is bad, that's my opinion and it's the right one, so you're all wrong".

I was going to write the exact same thing lol.

For someone who's name is "thatdbzguy" you sure dont have many/anything positive to say about an anime you supposedly like If you dont have anything good to say about anything Dragon Ball related, then I would like to ask you, why are you even participating in these forums? Kanzenshuu is a fan based forum, not a trash talking forum. I'm being serious, not trying to start an argument btw.

I dont know about anyone here, but I'm kinda getting annoyed with all of these "Why does this saga suck" or "What do you hate about this" threads.

Because forums are for discussion. You don't have to have nothing but good things to say about a series for discussion.

[thatdbzguy]

I have to agree.

I think there's a difference between looking critically at something and straight up sitting and there and bashing it as though it's the worst thing to ever happen.

Looking critically at DBZ is what causes me to bash it.

[Ajay]

I have to agree.

I think there's a difference between looking critically at something and straight up sitting and there and bashing it as though it's the worst thing to ever happen.

Looking critically at DBZ is what causes me to bash it.

But you don't articulate any of it. You repeat the same things over and over and rely on other people to look critically on it before going 'yeah, that's what I think'. You just seem to talk in extremities with little explanation.

[thatdbzguy]

I have to agree.

I think there's a difference between looking critically at something and straight up sitting and there and bashing it as though it's the worst thing to ever happen.

Looking critically at DBZ is what causes me to bash it.

But you don't articulate any of it. You repeat the same things over and over and rely on other people to look critically on it before going 'yeah, that's what I think'. You just seem to talk in extremities with little explanation.

I made an entire thread explaining why DBZ is bad.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I made an entire thread explaining why DBZ is bad.

That you did, though 'explaining' might honestly be a bit of a stretch, no offense. So why, in addition to that thread, do you feel so compelled to make that what every single one of your posts seems to be about in other threads too, complete with vague statements about what the 'majority' thinks.

I mean, look, I get it. I'm not claiming Dragon Ball is the best, most perfectly written thing the world has ever seen. It has TONS of flaws. There's a crapload of things in the franchise that I wish had been handled better, some of which people agree with me on or I agree with them after seeing them express it first, and some things that I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who cares about. But you know what? I love the series in spite of, or sometimes even because, of those flaws. I enjoy talking about the things that I like about the series even more than I do the things I don't. So why limit yourself to only talking about the negatives? There has to be a character you really like, or something, that you could try talking about for a while instead. There has to be, or you wouldn't even bother being here, surely. Anything to break up what is coming off, intentionally or unintentionally on your part, as a monotonous broken record that I'm pretty sure most of us are kind of tiring of hearing re-played.

[B]

But you don't articulate any of it. You repeat the same things over and over and rely on other people to look critically on it before going 'yeah, that's what I think'. You just seem to talk in extremities with little explanation.

I made an entire thread explaining why DBZ is bad.

If only I had not just recently changed my signature. You didn't explain why any of things you had problems with were bad; you just said they were bad.

It's like if I asked you if a sandwich was bad, and you said yes because it had pickles on it. And then I ask you why don't you like pickles, and then you just say, "They're pickles!"

[UltimateHammerBro]

I think I have a comparison. Let's say I'm Muslim (I'm not, btw) and I go to a Christian forum saying "I used to be Christian, but now I'm not. Being Christian is bad".
They ask me why, and I say "a majority of people say so. You just need to look at it critically and you'll think like me".

I don't want to start religious debates, but I think that it's a nice allegory.

[Tanooki Kuribo]

Most people here agree that the Cell saga is by far the worst saga out of all of Dragon Ball.

Do they? I don't know that they do. I'm not saying everyone loves the Cell arc, but I don't think the general consensus is that it's the worst arc in Dragon Ball.

On Kanzenshuu? Yeah, it's the general consensus.

Most people who like the Cell saga only like it for incredibly shallow reasons, like nostalgia or "OMGZ GOHAN IZ SO BADAZZZZ!". When you look at it from a deeper perspective, you'll see just how terrible it really is, which is what most folks here do.

Of course, the same could be said about DBZ in general.

Can I ask, why are you even here if all you do is just start conversations about how bad Dragon Ball is? You keep telling people to look deeper into the series, but it's a show for children. We know it shouldn't be taken so seriously, it's a fun little series and all you do is (basically) tell people to take it more seriously. When you dig deeper into it, yea of course everything seems really stupid. You could question anything about the show and dissect it to the point where it becomes pointless.

[rereboy]

On Kanzenshuu? Yeah, it's the general consensus.

Most people who like the Cell saga only like it for incredibly shallow reasons, like nostalgia or "OMGZ GOHAN IZ SO BADAZZZZ!". When you look at it from a deeper perspective, you'll see just how terrible it really is, which is what most folks here do.

Of course, the same could be said about DBZ in general.

The Cell saga is not BAD. Its just the worst arc in DB, in my opinion. And some arc had to be the worst. If not Cell, it would be another.

And we have been trough this. Dragon Ball is a good manga. But its a good SHONEN manga. Obviously its not a good drama movie like The Godfather but he have to look at its genre and what it tries to achieve. There's no point in comparing the incomparable, which is what we would be doing if we were comparing Dragon Ball to something like the Godfather or even another manga of another genre.

[ABED]

Why is The Godfather always people's go to concerning great drama? I've never seen the film's appeal.

In any case, yes, DB is a shonen manga with a lot of great humor and fun characters. If the Cell arc never existed, I have no idea what would happen. If the Freeza arc was the end, I'm sure the ending would've been different, and I don't think the audience would've felt short changed as DB would've had a good long run. Still, I enjoy the arc a lot, but just wish many of the fights were better and Gohan was more proactive.

[rereboy]

Why is The Godfather always people's go to concerning great drama. I've never seen the film's appeal.

Because its a well known reference.

[Insertclevername]

Well, the Godfather and it's sequel are really good at balancing a large cast of interesting characters all while focusing on the one larger character driven story arc of Michael Corleone. So, I guess you can say Dragon Ball could take a few pages from those movies in that respect.

[thatdbzguy]

But you don't articulate any of it. You repeat the same things over and over and rely on other people to look critically on it before going 'yeah, that's what I think'. You just seem to talk in extremities with little explanation.

I made an entire thread explaining why DBZ is bad.

You didn't explain why any of things you had problems with were bad; you just said they were bad.

I really shouldn't have to explain why plot holes, unbalanced character attention, and one-dimensional characters are bad.

[thatdbzguy]

On Kanzenshuu? Yeah, it's the general consensus.

Most people who like the Cell saga only like it for incredibly shallow reasons, like nostalgia or "OMGZ GOHAN IZ SO BADAZZZZ!". When you look at it from a deeper perspective, you'll see just how terrible it really is, which is what most folks here do.

Of course, the same could be said about DBZ in general.

The Cell saga is not BAD. Its just the worst arc in DB, in my opinion. And some arc had to be the worst. If not Cell, it would be another.

And we have been trough this. Dragon Ball is a good manga. But its a good SHONEN manga. Obviously its not a good drama movie like The Godfather but he have to look at its genre and what it tries to achieve. There's no point in comparing the incomparable, which is what we would be doing if we were comparing Dragon Ball to something like the Godfather or even another manga of another genre.

Saying DB is just a good Shonen means that you are admitting to having to maintain the mindset of Shonen Jump's targeted audience (little boys) in order to think of it as a good series. You shouldn't have to dumb yourself down to enjoy a good series.

[rereboy]

Saying DB is just a good Shonen means that you are admitting to having to maintain the mindset of Shonen Jump's targeted audience (little boys) in order to think of it as a good series. You shouldn't have to dumb yourself down to enjoy a good series.

Oh really?

Then, if I'm seeing a comedy, I should review it using the same criteria that I would use for a drama like the Godfather? If I'm seeing a documentary about wild life, I should review it using the same criteria that I would use for a drama like the Godfather? If I'm seeing a horror movie, I should review it using the same criteria that I would use for a drama like the Godfather?...

There's no genre inherently superior to another... Drama is not superior to comedy. Horror is not inferior to drama. Manga is not inferior to movies. Books are not inferior to comics. And so on.

Everything must be criticized based on its genre and on what its trying to do. Otherwise you end up critiquing a horror movie like its supposed to be a drama. Guess what, its not supposed to. This works both ways by the way. A drama is usually an awful horror movie, just like a horror movie is usually an awful drama.

[ABED]

It's not about being dumbed down. The show is aimed at kids, an inherently less sophisticated audience.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Most people here agree that the Cell saga is by far the worst saga out of all of Dragon Ball. So, what if Toriyama didn't even bother creating it, and instead went straight to Buu? How different do you think the saga would've been?

Cell saga "worst arc" just because it was less campy? Really? It was the arc that actually developed the powers of the characters the most.No such other arc ever focused on the characters It was a crucial arc that actually focused on the meaning nd depth of them all needing to drastically improve byactually training. The Buu saga literally just handed power ups to all the characters with no explaination but to keep up with the OP powers of Super Buu.
But on topic, If Buu were to come right after Freeza it would have been a terrible mess.

To early character development wise, Only Goku would be only SSJ, and where the hell would Goten and Trunks come from? It wouldnn't work because the Cell saga introduced so many new concepts, Buu would have just been out of place. Goku from SSJ1 to SSj3? Even if you were to say he "died" on namek and went to other world that sort of boost would feel way too rushed, where would SSJ2 be introduced? How would they even get there..? No. Just no.

Both Freeza and Cell lost their appeal when they began transforming. The whole Freeza fight felt pointless until his final form, where as Cell just became boring with no real goal.

Cell had a goal. To prove his design to be the perfect weapon and detroy Goku specifically. Simple, straight forward. A Goal. Hes the only villain who didnt want to blow up the world the second he could. He wanted to challenge the strongest fighters first, then move on to other worlds. He is Freeza in a Saiyan Body basically.

Its 17 and 18 that had no goals, they were evil because they just were. They didnt have a plan whatsoever, they just blew crap up for fun, even more mindlessly than Broly does.... there is no way they could pass as villains at all if they don't want anything. They killed Gero on debut, the only guy WITH a PLAN. They also NEVER fight Goku.... Cell was the only one who really got rid of them. If he didnt and Goku did it would have been a very boring arc.

Saying DB is just a good Shonen means that you are admitting to having to maintain the mindset of Shonen Jump's targeted audience (little boys) in order to think of it as a good series. You shouldn't have to dumb yourself down to enjoy a good series.

What does that have to do with your thread topic? What would it matter what saga Akira did after Freeza if DBZ is horrible to you regardless? It seems to me you're just trying to reach for any excuse to turn each thread you make into a "why DBZ sucks" game.

[Gaffer Tape]

It was the arc that actually developed the powers of the characters the most. No such other arc ever focused on the characters actually training.

Ahem. The 21st Tenkaichi Budoukai arc would like to have a word with you.

Also I'd argue that developing powers is much less interesting than developing characters.

[B]

I really shouldn't have to explain...

But you are on a discussion forum! Assume we're all idiots and explain!

It becomes harder and harder to gauge what you expect to gain out of telling a group of DB fans it sucks. Of course we are going to refute you at almost every instance. What is the endgame? Agreeing with you that it's bad? Regardless of what information is thrown at you, you just seem to talk at people; not even to them. You regurgitate variations of the same sentence.