Is Vegetto the Strongest of Any Anime Characters?

[Rocketman]

You can't destroy a black hole. If you claim you can, then it was not a black hole as we know them, and thus using the terminology is misleading at best and bullshit at worst.


Really, it reminds me of that other thread.

Me: "God of War's Helios can destroy the universe"
Others: "The universe structure is different, not valid comparison"

Others: "Stupid Fucking Giant Robot Show can destroy black holes"
Me: "You can't destroy a black hole"
Others: "The universe structure is different, still valid comparison though, ha ha"

I realize when making cross-franchise comparisons there's always going to be some clashing of rules, but come on now. If you get to include something as completely impossible and inane as "destroyed a black hole with a KICK!", then I can list Kratos as a Sun-destroyer and claim his superiority to Perfect Cell.

[rereboy]

You can't destroy a black hole. If you claim you can, then it was not a black hole as we know them, and thus using the terminology is misleading at best and bullshit at worst.


Really, it reminds me of that other thread.

Me: "God of War's Helios can destroy the universe"
Others: "The universe structure is different, not valid comparison"

Others: "Stupid Fucking Giant Robot Show can destroy black holes"
Me: "You can't destroy a black hole"
Others: "The universe structure is different, still valid comparison though, ha ha"

I realize when making cross-franchise comparisons there's always going to be some clashing of rules, but come on now. If you get to include something as completely impossible and inane as "destroyed a black hole with a KICK!", then I can list Kratos as a Sun-destroyer and claim his superiority to Perfect Cell.

"Destroy" is a term that refers to the end of a thing's existence at the hands of something. So, if a black hole ceases to exist (at least as a black hole) because of something, then its destroyed. If a character is able to make a black hole cease to exist, then he essentially destroyed the black hole.

Destroy is not something that is exclusively used for physical things... A example: my girlfriend completely destroyed my expectations for the weekend. Are my expectations something physical that can be broken? No. Can they be still destroyed? Yes. Because destruction just refers to the end of something at the ends of another.

Why is it so hard to grasp this concept...?

Also, if you go by the notion that every universe is different and so its impossible to know how one character would do in another universe due to the different rules, then its impossible to comment on this topic because it would be impossible to compare. Therefore, in order to even comment on the topic (besides saying that it can't be compared), we have to assume that there's enough common ground between those universe for comparisons to be possible between their feats.

[The Monkey King]

Like what? Resisting Buu's candy beam is probably just because he's so strong compared to Buu that not even Buu's magic worked properly.

That's not what the Daizenshuu says

Being a combination of two Saiyans, his appearance hasn't changed all that much, and feels like a combination of Goku's face and Vegeta's hairstyle. He has both Vegeta's coolheaded battle strategies and Goku's pure fighting sense, and there can be no doubt that his strength measures even greater than that of a [Super] Saiyan 3. He is capable of transforming from his normal state into a Super Saiyan form. He has certain special characteristics, including that his strength doesn't change even if his shape does. He was born only once, and battled Majin Buu.

http://web.archive.org/web/201111031544 ... -z#vegetto
For whatever reason Vegito's resisstant to transmutation.

[rereboy]

Then, his power wouldn't change if he turned Oozaru? His shape changes when he turns SSJ, his power doesn't? If somebody cut off his arm, he wouldn't lose power?

As you can see, its very easy to disprove a literal interpretation of that line. There are tons of situations where it doesn't make sense. Daizenshuu just says that because he was shown to be able to somewhat resist Buu's beam, which implies that he is so powerful that he can somewhat negate even magical attacks that should work on him (and not because he somehow has magic of his own because not even that description mentions any of that). But I doubt that their intention was to say that if Buu was 500000 times stronger than Vegetto and had used his beam on Vegetto he would still be able to resist the beam.

[Toriyama-sama]

The only thing magical was Buu's beam. The fact that Vegetto was so strong compared to Buu that Buu's magic didn't work properly doesn't make Vegetto magical or make him have magical abilities. That would be like saying that if Vegetto resisted Chaotzu's telekinesis because he is so strong compared to Chaotzu, then Vegetto has telekinesis.

Don't see what being uber strong has to do with being a fighting candy. The way I see it, Toriyama's point was "Vegetto is just that awesome: not only is he monstruously strong, he has weird abilities".

Jeez... Like I've already stated: "If you cause it to cease to be a black hole, you would have destroyed the black hole. There would no longer be any black hole."

In other words, you would have essentially destroyed the black hole. What is it that you don't understand in this straightforward concept?

What you don't realize is that making a black hole magically vanish as if it were never there from the start wouldn't be any more impressive than, say, making a star vanish. So, why say "black hole buster" instead of "able to make a portion of space-time be replaced with emptiness"? Why imply explosions? And why mention black holes? Why are black holes special?
How about if I say "Mr. X is able to make water burn". Is that impressive? Well, in the real world that's not even possible so the question can't even be asked. But in Mr. X's fictional universe it may very well be absolutely trivial for all we know.

And I've already told you that clinging to scientific accuracy when not even Dragon Ball does it in the slightest is pointless. The terms you are criticizing are all straightforward concepts that don't need scientific accuracy to be understood and that are meant to reflect the scale of the powers of those characters because, guess what, they actually destroy universes and black holes, and survive explosions with energy equivalent to the big bang in their fictional universes.

You're confusing reality with fiction and missing the point of those terms entirely while still somehow arguing in favor of Dragon Ball characters like they had any more scientific accuracy than those other characters...

What I've been trying to point out all along is that what you perceive as a huge accomplishment isn't really that much of a huge accomplishment (comparatively speaking) if you actually know what these concepts are. Surviving a Big Bang requires one to not exist within the space-time, not to be endurable in any way. So my question is: why say "survive the Big Bang" instead of "survive some Big Bang-like explosion", with the expression "Big Bang" being used figuratively, if the intent is to show a character's endurance? Why bring the Big Bang into this? Because you know, it is NOT an explosion: it is what we call a space-like singularity, which is predicted by Hawking-Penrose's theorem.

In other words, you took an adjective I used freely to describe a black hole to explain that we don't understand how they work, and used the opportunity to continue to insist on scientific accuracy. And you say you didn't miss the point. Ok.

You can't compare distinct fictional universes with entirely different governing laws and expect people to agree with you when you bring in phenomena that do not exist in real life and can be freely defined according to what the respective authors want in their works. A black hole in universe A is not necessarily the same as a black hole in universe B, and much less the same as an actual black hole. So, when you mention busting one, just how do you compare?
My rant has indeed focused on this single issue all along. Such expressions are fancy but absolutely meaningless when used to compare distinct realms of fiction, especially when you can't even reconcile them with what happens in real life.

[rereboy]

Don't see what being uber strong has to do with being a fighting candy.

That is exactly the kind of logic that is always present in DB. Uber strong equals awesome. And Vegetto is the epitome of strong, hence, he's super-mega awesome and can't even be turned into a candy properly because his power is too great to be contained even as a candy.

What you don't realize is that making a black hole magically vanish as if it were never there from the start wouldn't be any more impressive than, say, making a star vanish. So, why say "black hole buster" instead of "able to make a portion of space-time be replaced with emptiness"? Why imply explosions? And why mention black holes? Why are black holes special?
How about if I say "Mr. X is able to make water burn". Is that impressive? Well, in the real world that's not even possible so the question can't even be asked. But in Mr. X's fictional universe it may very well be absolutely trivial for all we know.

Its more impressive because it operates on another scale beyond the comprehension of pretty much any human. We understand, for example, that a big planet or a star could be destroyed with a big enough explosion and Vegetto could do that. But a black hole? Whatever is capable of that is beyond our full understanding and artists use similar things to this to illustrate the scale of the characters' power.

What I've been trying to point out all along is that what you perceive as a huge accomplishment isn't really that much of a huge accomplishment (comparatively speaking) if you actually know what these concepts are. Surviving a Big Bang requires one to not exist within the space-time, not to be endurable in any way. So my question is: why say "survive the Big Bang" instead of "survive some Big Bang-like explosion", with the expression "Big Bang" being used figuratively, if the intent is to show a character's endurance? Why bring the Big Bang into this? Because you know, it is NOT an explosion, but what we call a space-like singularity, which is predicted by Hawking-Penrose's theorem.

Let me see, because the authors are more preoccupied in transmitting the idea of the scale that these characters work on and fight at than being scientifically accurate? Could it be that simple? I'll answer it. Yes, its that simple. Its you who keeps insisting in scientific accuracy and doesn't understand the point of the artists in making these feats happen to illustrate the scale of their powers.

You can't compare distinct fictional universes with entirely different governing laws and expect people to agree with you when you bring in phenomena that do not exist in real life and can be freely defined according to what the respective authors want for in works. A black hole in universe A is not necessarily the same as a black hole in universe B, and much less the same as an actual black hole. So, when you mention busting one, just how do you compare?
My rant has indeed focused on this single issue all along. Such expressions are fancy but absolutely meaningless as a way to compare distinct realms of fiction, especially when you can't even reconcile them with what happens in real life.

I'll agree with you if you offer compelling arguments from those universes. Trying to argue with absolutely accurate and real science, when neither universe even cares much about that, is pointless and only proves that either universe is impossible and doesn't make much sense according to science.

And like I've already stated, if we follow the notion that due to the different rules set in the different universes, we don't know how a character would do in a different universe, then any and all comparison become impossible and its impossible to offer any useful comment in this topic. We have to assume that there's enough common ground to even compare them, otherwise its impossible and we shouldn't even comment on the topic.

[mmg86]

So much discussion regarding the destruction of a Black Hole, yet i doubt anyone in the discussion has seen the scene in question. So here it is. Watch it (the whole video) and THEN continue discussing how impossible it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V46ciduAzwo

If its any consolation, the characters are as incredulous about it as you are, AND the event is triggering incredible side effects... by the way, I'm wondering what your stance would be on something like, a character mentioning "that is impossible, because this and that", a completely accurate scientific explanation of why something is impossible. Then the impossible thing in question happens right in front of his eyes. Would that be acceptable for you?

[Rocketman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V46ciduAzwo

If its any consolation, the characters are as incredulous about it as you are, AND the event is triggering incredible side effects... by the way, I'm wondering what your stance would be on something like, a character mentioning "that is impossible, because this and that", a completely accurate scientific explanation of why something is impossible. Then the impossible thing in question happens right in front of his eyes. Would that be acceptable for you?

The event horizon is not a physical object. It cannot be kicked, because it does not exist.

I don't care if some retarded anime rammed its head up its own ass and started sucking up shit.

[KentalSSJ6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V46ciduAzwo

If its any consolation, the characters are as incredulous about it as you are, AND the event is triggering incredible side effects... by the way, I'm wondering what your stance would be on something like, a character mentioning "that is impossible, because this and that", a completely accurate scientific explanation of why something is impossible. Then the impossible thing in question happens right in front of his eyes. Would that be acceptable for you?

The event horizon is not a physical object. It cannot be kicked, because it does not exist.

I don't care if some retarded anime rammed its head up its own ass and started sucking up shit.

Yeesh, youve been a little ball of spit and vinegar lately havent you?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well, a black hole is probably much less complex than every other type of celestial object, actually. I also don't think it makes sense to say it's powerful (as in "character X is powerful"). And it does contain mass, charge and angular momentum, so I wouldn't call it imaterial either.

According to current knowledge a black hole is a region of space-time geometrically disconnected from the outside, in such a way that you can go in but you can't get out. An explosion isn't going to affect it, at least directly. In other words, you can't bust a black hole.

You can probably make it disappear with magic, though. Then of course, magic can potentially accomplish everything. But Vegetto possesses magical abilities as well!

As I said, this truly is trying to compare the incomparable.

No, its not. A character that can destroy a black hole, like you correctly described, has to have more than just an ability to make things go boom like Vegetto does. A character able to do that probably either has such strong magic that it can make it happen, or reality, space-time warping abilities that defy comprehension. Either of which should be more than enough to take care of Vegetto, not to mention all the other things that it can do.

Also, we understand planets and the like way better than we understand black holes. Hence why I said they are more complex. And they are very powerful due to the energy involved in it. Its pull is so strong that not even light escapes. Imagine the energy involved in something like that.

That's not necessarily true, for example if it's magic, someone could have a spell that has the specific effect of "remove/destroy black hole", but doesn't work on anything that is not a black hole.

[Polyphase Avatron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V46ciduAzwo

If its any consolation, the characters are as incredulous about it as you are, AND the event is triggering incredible side effects... by the way, I'm wondering what your stance would be on something like, a character mentioning "that is impossible, because this and that", a completely accurate scientific explanation of why something is impossible. Then the impossible thing in question happens right in front of his eyes. Would that be acceptable for you?

The event horizon is not a physical object. It cannot be kicked, because it does not exist.

I don't care if some retarded anime rammed its head up its own ass and started sucking up shit.

First of all, Diebuster was an excellent show. Second of all, they didn't kick the event horizon, their power was so great it messed up the local laws of physics and created a naked singularity, which are scientifically theorized. Then they used the power of Nono's degeneracy reactor to isolate it from the rest of the universe so it wouldn't cause a new Big Bang.

[Toriyama-sama]

Its more impressive because it operates on another scale beyond the comprehension of pretty much any human. We understand, for example, that a big planet or a star could be destroyed with a big enough explosion and Vegetto could do that. But a black hole? Whatever is capable of that is beyond our full understanding and artists use similar things to this to illustrate the scale of the characters' power.

Well, it sure might be possible for a black hole to be eliminated be means of an explosion in some random fiction. No super-exotic ability required. But certainly not in others, wherefrom you can't compare characters from both stories on those grounds.

Let me see, because the authors are more preoccupied in transmitting the idea of the scale that these characters work on and fight at than being scientifically accurate? Could it be that simple? I'll answer it. Yes, its that simple. Its you who keeps insisting in scientific accuracy and doesn't understand the point of the artists in making these feats happen to illustrate the scale of their powers.

Perhaps you should re-read the whole conversation. If some author wants to invent some set of rules for his own fiction then I'm completely fine with it. Why would I be here in the first place if that weren't the case? But don't you use them to compare the incomparable whilst resorting to real phenomena as a measuring stick.
Example: premises - "protagonist of story A is two meters tall", "protagonist of story B is two seconds tall"; conclusion - "protagonist of story B is taller because it's way beyond our understanding". Yes, this sounds just as ridiculous to you as "a black hole buster is stronger than some badass guy [Vegetto] from a manga where black holes of any kind, scientifically accurate or not, probably don't even exist" sounds to me.

I'll agree with you if you offer compelling arguments from those universes. Trying to argue with absolutely accurate and real science, when neither universe even cares much about that, is pointless and only proves that either universe is impossible and doesn't make much sense according to science.

Pretty much, yes. That's exactly my stance on the matter, in case you hadn't realized yet. 1) Don't use real phenomena as a way to measure fictional occurences that have absolutely nothing in common with it except the name, nevertheless, 2) be familiar with both continuities, be unbiased, have 1) in mind, and then judge unless that's deemed impossible.

And like I've already stated, if we follow the notion that due to the different rules set in the different universes, we don't know how a character would do in a different universe, then any and all comparison become impossible and its impossible to offer any useful comment in this topic. We have to assume that there's enough common ground to even compare them, otherwise its impossible and we shouldn't even comment on the topic.

Absolutely, indeed. It's just that many times there really isn't enough common ground, whence both instances would be incomparable (can't stress that enough).

Forgot to address this earlier:

while still somehow arguing in favor of Dragon Ball characters like they had any more scientific accuracy than those other characters...

Before anything alse, note that I'm not, repeat, I'm not arguing in favour of Dragon Ball characters' powers over other fictional beings, merely on the basis of me not being familiar with all of them. Put this aside, Dragon Ball isn't scientifically accurate either (which is fine with me) though I reckon Toriyama isn't presumptuous enough to try and make it so, and it's been made clear time and time again how his works characteristically don't take themselves all too seriously.

So much discussion regarding the destruction of a Black Hole, yet i doubt anyone in the discussion has seen the scene in question. So here it is. Watch it (the whole video) and THEN continue discussing how impossible it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V46ciduAzwo

If its any consolation, the characters are as incredulous about it as you are, AND the event is triggering incredible side effects... by the way, I'm wondering what your stance would be on something like, a character mentioning "that is impossible, because this and that", a completely accurate scientific explanation of why something is impossible. Then the impossible thing in question happens right in front of his eyes. Would that be acceptable for you?

Well, in spite of a black hole actually being destroyed in that scene, which makes such thing factually possible in that universe (even if nobody though it were so, and even if unusual circumstances played a role), that occurence is perfectly acceptable in my eyes, yes.
What's not acceptable is using this to establish a comparison with another anime where destroying a black hole is factually impossible (as in, it'll never happen because the author decided so).

[Rocketman]

First of all, Diebuster was an excellent show.

You said this, and then you followed it with this:

Second of all, they didn't kick the event horizon, their power was so great it messed up the local laws of physics and created a naked singularity, which are scientifically theorized. Then they used the power of Nono's degeneracy reactor to isolate it from the rest of the universe so it wouldn't cause a new Big Bang.

So I don't believe your assertions of quality in that steaming pile.

[Herms]

ugggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fucking shit.

FUCK

You said this, and then you followed it with this:
[snip]
So I don't believe your assertions of quality in that steaming pile.

These are not appropriate responses.

If you have nothing worthwhile to add to the discussion, please simply refrain from posting.

[Polyphase Avatron]

First of all, Diebuster was an excellent show.

You said this, and then you followed it with this:

Second of all, they didn't kick the event horizon, their power was so great it messed up the local laws of physics and created a naked singularity, which are scientifically theorized. Then they used the power of Nono's degeneracy reactor to isolate it from the rest of the universe so it wouldn't cause a new Big Bang.

So I don't believe your assertions of quality in that steaming pile.

The Gunbuster/Diebuster series is actually known for being one of the most scientifically accurate sci-fi animes, Gunbuster was one of the first anime to portray relativity time dilation and even use it as a plot point, and the most unscientific stuff is mostly limited to standard sci-fi tropes (warp speed/hyperdrive, psychic powers, etc.).

[Cardle grave]

Anime Vegito is Multiversal level with MFTL fighting speed, And can fight at Instant speed. He is one of the strongest anime characters

[Friezacooler]

Awesome speed feat by Mystic Gohan he flied from sacred world of the kai's, to Goten and Trunks vs buu. So Vegito should be extremely fast

[Kamiccolo9]

Awesome speed feat by Mystic Gohan he flied from sacred world of the kai's, to Goten and Trunks vs buu. So Vegito should be extremely fast

He didn't fly there. Kibito teleported him.

[Cardle grave]

he Fast at Fighting speed, Easily MFTL

Seeing how SSj Goku and Frieza can biltz Kai Vision, Which can keep up with a FTL space ship

[Draken]

he Fast at Fighting speed, Easily MFTL

Seeing how SSj Goku and Freeza can biltz Kai Vision, Which can keep up with a FTL space ship

That space ship? More like a slow-ship! TTGL would have reached Namek in 0 seconds, because his foot would be there already while his other foot is squishing the Earth.