"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[Hugo Boss]

This particular scene always confused me. Here we have a strong assumption that Goku & Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo and expected to manage something against Innocent Boo. Later, we get the impression they never intended to fight together, but one at a time, and Goku right away transforms into SS3 and retcon himself saying he should be able to beat Innocent Boo with some ease, as Vegeta also recognizes Goku was a lot stronger than he previously thought after seeing him fight.

Because Pure Buu was incredibly weak compared to Super Buu and they now had a chance? No retcon.

There's a moment that Goku says he can't beat Innocent Boo and a later moment saying he actually can do it. That's what I mean. So Goku probably meant in that statement SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta can manage something against Inoccent Boo, but not accomplish anything if fighting one at a time or both fighting against Evil Boo.

Well, I'm not saying that Goku being stronger than Gohan & Gotenks in M13 & BoG is a fact. What I'm saying is that there isn't enough evidence in the movies that make Goku being stronger or weaker than Gohan & Gotenks 100% true, and since Goku says in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai arc that Oob is going to be a very strong guy, that perhaps the Z-Senshi in the tournament (Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Boo, Trunks, Goten, and Pan) may lose to him, implying that Oob could probably be at Pure Boo's level, and after testing him says that Oob was truly as strong as he expecting him to be (but can't control his power), it implies that Goku hasn't gotten much stronger over the 10 years (except for Super Saiyan God, which he wouldn't use on Oob, because the point of his fight with Oob was to test himself & prove that with training, he can beat Majin Boo, and God didn't come from his training so it would be pointless to use it & literally beat Oob with his finger in God base).

Don't worry, I didn't mean that. About evidence, I don't think it's enough, but at least interesting:

Spoiler:

At the end of Dragon Ball Z‘s “Majin Buu arc” (aired 1993–1996), Goku had become so strong that you wondered how he could possibly get any stronger. So I think that’s why, in this movie, Akira Toriyama-sensei designed a new enemy character, “Beerus, God of Destruction”, as a being surpassing Freeza, Cell, and Majin Buu. Having said that, bringing out a character who’s merely strong is simplistic and uninteresting. Also, in having Toriyama-sensei supervising the scenario that scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe-san wrote, we saw that Beerus-sama possessed a multifaceted personality, so I tried to emphasize the overwhelmingly-powerful Beerus-sama‘s playful side right from his first scene. In terms of the work overall, we worked to bring out its “Toriyama taste”, so while there are exceptionally flashy battle-scenes, it’s been finished up as a work that includes gags as well.

Source: http://okstars.okwave.jp/vol246.html
Edit: Translation provided by Kanzenshuu staff.

So, since during the Majin Boo arc we have U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Boo > Pure Boo > SS3 Goku, with SS Gotenks implied to be many times stronger than SS3 Goku in guidebooks, and since in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai arc, we have Enraged Oob = Pure Boo, with Goku being unsure if he could win against Oob (presumably as a SS3, since in God he would be too strong, and anything from base to SS2 would be too weak, and because the point of the fight was that he wanted a rematch with Boo (now Oob) to prove to himself that he is the strongest), Goku can't be stronger than Gohan & Gotenks in M13 & BoG, since they take place before the tournament.

I'm curious about this one, since I remember only SS Vegetto was said to be stronger than SS3 Goku in guidebooks.

[hleV]

Are you saying that Beerus used way more power than supposedly needed against Boo but not the others?

It was Boo who ate the pudding, and this is why this whole mess happened, so sure, why not? He didn't even bother to hit Tenshinhan, and he was even testing Vegeta, his problem was mainly with Boo.

So Beerus was going for the kill against Boo but only managed do a KO, and against everyone else he was going for a KO and did it successfully? That doesn't sound right.

That is outright ridiculous, because he had remained conscious after having part of his body destroyed, having his body continuously beaten by stronger opponents, being blown up to smithereens, etc.

And yet he got KOed by getting punched...

Yes, he got KO'd by getting completely beat up, so none of his body parts could act on their own.

Once Boo takes normal damage from his stronger opponents, the same rules that apply to everyone apply to him as well: he will get bruises, he will bleed, he will lose energy, he will get KOed.

He will only ever get KO'd if his whole body is damaged. Getting bruised, bleeding, losing energy doesn't contradict Boo's physiology; getting KO'd when his body is completely fine does.

Beerus just did more damage to Boo with his Kiai than Pure Boo did with his hits.

You mean the kiai which did absolutely nothing? Well, Boo probably crashed into a tree or two whilst falling, perhaps that's how he got damaged? Pure Boo beat him up completely. Beerus pushed him away.

Can you provide more info on weapon empowering with ki in DBO that is not just a gameplay element? Though I'm interested in gameplay elements of that kind as well. I had a level 50 swordsman and nothing like that came up.

Sure:

AGE 804
Gohan begins researching the martial arts of the past, organizing them in “The Science of Ki-Control”
The death of his father causes Gohan to reflect on the power he wields, and so he devoted himself to scholarly research on the source of that strength—“ki”. “The Science of Ki-Control”, the book in which Gohan organized the results of his research, quietly gains popularity. One of the articles, “Katchin Can be Cut!”, has an immense influence in the birth of the "Swordsman" class.
[Ref: From the DBO timeline.]

In which part does it mention weapons being empowered with ki? Because "Swordsman" just sounds like Trunks: a guy who has control over ki and also uses a sword.

In-game footage.

Looks like Vegetto's ki sword, just used along with a real sword. Beerus didn't do anything of sort.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So Beerus was going for the kill against Boo but only managed do a KO, and against everyone else he was going for a KO and did it successfully? That doesn't sound right.

Just watched the scene again, and he told to Boo that he was going to make it painful for him because he ate his pudding, so he wasn't going for the kill.

Yes, he got KO'd by getting completely beat up, so none of his body parts could act on their own.

He will only ever get KO'd if his whole body is damaged. Getting bruised, bleeding, losing energy doesn't contradict Boo's physiology; getting KO'd when his body is completely fine does.

Is this stated anywhere, or you personally came to that conclusion?

You mean the kiai which did absolutely nothing? Well, Boo probably crashed into a tree or two whilst falling, perhaps that's how he got damaged? Pure Boo beat him up completely. Beerus pushed him away.

What? What do you mean that the Kiai didn't do anything? It KOed Boo.

In which part does it mention weapons being empowered with ki? Because "Swordsman" just sounds like Trunks: a guy who has control over ki and also uses a sword.

We are talking about a book that details the uses of ki. Why bother mentioning that a sword can cut the hardest metal in the universe if ki isn't involved? Like you said, and like the Daizenshuu stated, ki had nothing to do with Trunks cutting Freeza, it was because the sword was so sharp.

Looks like Vegetto's ki sword, just used along with a real sword. Beerus didn't do anything of sort.

You can't be serious now. Really? Where did you see Vegetto's ki sword? He is holding with one hand the sword, and ki covers it. The Ki Saber technique looks nothing like that, and it would have destroyed the sword if it was used on it. Heck, you can't even use the technique when holding a sword, because the hands can't take the position they need.

Beerus probably did the same with the chopsticks on a much smaller level.

[hleV]

Yes, he got KO'd by getting completely beat up, so none of his body parts could act on their own.

He will only ever get KO'd if his whole body is damaged. Getting bruised, bleeding, losing energy doesn't contradict Boo's physiology; getting KO'd when his body is completely fine does.

Is this stated anywhere, or you personally came to that conclusion?

I personally came to this only logical conclusion. Your conclusions are wrong because you ignore logic to justify BOG. You ask why can't Boo be knocked out by a much stronger opponent, I answer: because everything in the series shows that Boo's body parts can act on their own and hitting just one spot (let alone just pushing him away with a Kiai which didn't seem to deal any damage) wouldn't do a damn thing.

You mean the kiai which did absolutely nothing? Well, Boo probably crashed into a tree or two whilst falling, perhaps that's how he got damaged? Pure Boo beat him up completely. Beerus pushed him away.

What? What do you mean that the Kiai didn't do anything? It KOed Boo.

Yes. The kiai did nothing (because damage is usually visible, you know?) and yet Boo somehow got KO'd. That's BOG logic to you, I didn't make anything up.

In which part does it mention weapons being empowered with ki? Because "Swordsman" just sounds like Trunks: a guy who has control over ki and also uses a sword.

We are talking about a book that details the uses of ki. Why bother mentioning that a sword can cut the hardest metal in the universe if ki isn't involved? Like you said, and like the Daizenshuu stated, ki had nothing to do with Trunks cutting Freeza, it was because the sword was so sharp.

To not go to a long and boring discussion, I'll just say this and be done with it: it doesn't state anywhere that a weapon is empowered with ki.

Looks like Vegetto's ki sword, just used along with a real sword. Beerus didn't do anything of sort.

You can't be serious now. Really? Where did you see Vegetto's ki sword? He is holding with one hand the sword, and ki covers it. The Ki Saber technique looks nothing like that, and it would have destroyed the sword if it was used on it. Heck, you can't even use the technique when holding a sword, because the hands can't take the position they need.

Beerus probably did the same with the chopsticks on a much smaller level.

I said that it looks like Vegetto's ki sword, just used along with a real sword. If Vegetto can make ki to have the shape of a sword, why can't ki have a shape which surrounds the sword? Again, a statement that weapons are ever empowered with ki doesn't exist, and this gameplay element can be interpreted as "it's a sword used along with ki". In simple words, it's a certain type of ki attack which is controlled with sword movements. Don't take this seriously, as I'm just pointing out one of the possibilities, but Beerus didn't do anything of sort. And you have to remember that it's just a gameplay element, so you saying that Beerus used such a thing on a lower scale is of no value to this discussion.

[Draken]

If it's your own personal conclusion how can you objectively say he's flat out wrong?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I personally came to this only logical conclusion. Your conclusions are wrong because you ignore logic to justify BOG. You ask why can't Boo be knocked out by a much stronger opponent, I answer: because everything in the series shows that Boo's body parts can act on their own and hitting just one spot (let alone just pushing him away with a Kiai which didn't seem to deal any damage) wouldn't do a damn thing.

And I disagree. I believe, I always believed, that Mr. Boo was KOed by Boo because he took too enough damage, not because Boo hit him everywhere so his parts stopped moving. I'm sure that SS2 Vegetto (if not SS Vegetto) can KO any form of Boo with one punch in the stomach.

Yes. The kiai did nothing (because damage is usually visible, you know?) and yet Boo somehow got KO'd. That's BOG logic to you, I didn't make anything up.

Boo regenerated from any small damage he got. Beerus thew him away in the lake, fought with Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and #18, and then went to Boo. Even in the manga, Mr. Boo was unconscious, but he had healed from the damage (he only had dirt in his body).

To not go to a long and boring discussion, I'll just say this and be done with it: it doesn't state anywhere that a weapon is empowered with ki.

If the book about ki isn't talking about empowering weapons with ki to cut things like Katchin, then what is it talking about?

I said that it looks like Vegetto's ki sword, just used along with a real sword. If Vegetto can make ki to have the shape of a sword, why can't ki have a shape which surrounds the sword? Again, a statement that weapons are ever empowered with ki doesn't exist, and this gameplay element can be interpreted as "it's a sword used along with ki". In simple words, it's a certain type of ki attack which is controlled with sword movements. Don't take this seriously, as I'm just pointing out one of the possibilities, but Beerus didn't do anything of sort. And you have to remember that it's just a gameplay element, so you saying that Beerus used such a thing on a lower scale is of no value to this discussion.

It's not a gameplay element, it's a technique that swordsmen can use. Gameplay elements are things like Life or Energy Points. We are seeing ki flowing in a weapon, no? It proves that ki can be applied to weapons. We even see ki attacks through other weapons in DBO, like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp9HfVsUsFg#t=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXHtVDfgcWE#t=6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w5LoeGxHcQ#t=4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edh8FHze3CA#t=4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBOB_lvZEag#t=7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LANaMSqizvg#t=6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nslIm7EPeV4#t=8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57TLBIGDSms#t=7

[hleV]

To not go to a long and boring discussion, I'll just say this and be done with it: it doesn't state anywhere that a weapon is empowered with ki.

If the book about ki isn't talking about empowering weapons with ki to cut things like Katchin, then what is it talking about?

About using ki to cut katchin, probably with the help of a sword. Or vice-versa.

I said that it looks like Vegetto's ki sword, just used along with a real sword. If Vegetto can make ki to have the shape of a sword, why can't ki have a shape which surrounds the sword? Again, a statement that weapons are ever empowered with ki doesn't exist, and this gameplay element can be interpreted as "it's a sword used along with ki". In simple words, it's a certain type of ki attack which is controlled with sword movements. Don't take this seriously, as I'm just pointing out one of the possibilities, but Beerus didn't do anything of sort. And you have to remember that it's just a gameplay element, so you saying that Beerus used such a thing on a lower scale is of no value to this discussion.

It's not a gameplay element, it's a technique that swordsmen can use. Gameplay elements are things like Life or Energy Points. We are seeing ki flowing in a weapon, no? It proves that ki can be applied to weapons. We even see ki attacks through other weapons in DBO, like these:

I completely disagree with your idea that a visual effect in a video game can be used as evidence to something which has never been stated or suggested in a way that couldn't have various interpretations. Another thing is... I am certain that Toriyama had nothing to do with the design of that visual effect (or any effects of DBO for that matter). And finally... it's not even remotely like what Beerus did. Because Beerus used normal chopsticks without doing anything to them, unless suggested otherwise.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

About using ki to cut katchin, probably with the help of a sword. Or vice-versa.

What do you mean? Like, throw a Kienzan and then use a sword?

The book says how Katchin can be cut, Goten & Trunks get inspired by this and open a swordsmanship school, and from what we see in the game, their techniques involve amplifying the power of their swords with ki. There are various gameplay mechanics that are explained in the story (they explain why the kids are alone in the wild & training, why there are multiple sets of DBs, why when a fighter gets KO he teleports back to the village through Popo Stones, this one with the swordsmen, etc). But you choose to ignore the facts and make up your own explanations because...?

I completely disagree with your idea that a visual effect in a video game can be used as evidence to something which has never been stated or suggested in a way that couldn't have various interpretations.

So, in God of War, Kratos doesn't have any magic abilities? Or in Assassin's Creed, the Assassins don't really have hidden blades? Or in Call of Duty, the soldiers don't really have the weapons you choose? Or in Super Mario, Mario doesn't get bigger when he eats a mushroom?

Another thing is... I am certain that Toriyama had nothing to do with the design of that visual effect (or any effects of DBO for that matter).

So? Are we choosing what's "canon" in DBO by speculating where Toriyama was involved?

And finally... it's not even remotely like what Beerus did. Because Beerus used normal chopsticks without doing anything to them, unless suggested otherwise.

Ki isn't always visible. Why aren't the clothes not destroyed when someone gets hit by a ki blast? Probably because an invisible aura protects them. We've seen Goku concentrating ki in his finger in the manga, we've seen that fighters can flow ki in their weapons in DBO. It's very possible that Beerus concentrated ki some ki in the chopsticks and it wasn't visible because he did it on a small level.

But then again, this is the same series where there are things like the moon explodes & the Earth stays unaffected. Sometimes, we shouldn't put much thought in some things.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

DBO's swordsman class is based off of Trunks and Goten's Kikokenjutsu (Ki-Control Swordsmanship), the whole premise of which is imbuing their sword with ki. There's no debate to be had there.

[hleV]

the whole premise of which is imbuing their sword with ki.

Do you have anything more than that? Because swordsmanship and ki control are two different things and their combination doesn't translate to "sword is powered with ki" any more than to "simultaneous sword and ki usage". And considering Trunks didn't empower his sword with ki (he used his strength, which is ki, to cut Freeza using a very good sword), I have to agree with your point that there's no debate to be had.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's been in the game class descriptions since we started getting more solid DBO info in 2010 from Amaranth Sparrow. The Swordsman class uses Kikokenjutsu, which revolves around skilled swordmanship and infusing blades with ki to overpower opponents

[hleV]

infusing blades with ki

Are you able to back up this particular statement with a reliable source/translation?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

infusing blades with ki

Are you able to back up this particular statement with a reliable source/translation?

Without tracking down one of the game's Korean class descriptions and bugging my translator to ignore her schoolwork for this, this is the best I got. But it should still be more than adequate.

Hey, since DBO has recently gone into OB, I've been doing some translations, and I've noticed that there are some stuff that people still don't seem completely informed about, so I figured I'd contribute some of my findings.

First off, unless I'm missing something, the villains are no longer known as the "Dark Eye". I was actually the person who translated the article with that information a long time ago, when the game was first announced (believe it or not). At the time, it stated something along the lines of, "the world has been divided by a villainous organization called the Dark Eye, which is controlled from behind the scenes by a mysterious individual". Whatever the reason, it seems to have been dropped, since it hasn't been used in a long time.

Instead, as it currently stands, the villain is typically only referred to as the "Pale Man", and his forces, which are comprised of the remnants of the Freeza and Red Pants Armies, are usually called the "Pale Man's Army".

Now, I haven't read much about this stuff on any English sites, so I thought I'd share some information. Some is from the game, some from the official site, and some of it's a bit older, from a press conferances:

.....*snip*.....

Founding of the groundbreaking Kikoukenjutsu Sword School
In Gohan's "Groundbreaking Science", he wrote that the Katchin metal (that was used to test the Z-Sword) could, in fact, be cut, which caused many to become interested in learning swordplay. When Trunks and Goten learned about this, they got all fired up and decided that they'd start an awesome sword school of their own. This lead to the founding of the groundbreaking Kikoukenjutsu Sword School. Kikoukenjutsu, or "Spiritual Swordsmanship", revolves around elegant swordplay and infusing blades with ki to overpower opponents.

[hleV]

If that is legit, then I guess Goten and Trunks actually developed such ki manipulation techniques and future Trunks didn't use it (judging from the description of his sword and the fact that it broke against #18). So if it's indeed possible to empower an item with ki, a new question pops up: is it visible? Supposedly it's visible in-game (though I'd still be willing to disregard in-game visual effects when discussing the universe), can it also be invisible? As right now this doesn't really help the case with Beerus's chopsticks, because nothing indicates that he may've infused them with ki (godly), and considering nothing like that has been done in the series and likely way less than 0.1% of DB fans are aware of DBO's "infusing blades with ki" thing, I highly doubt anyone is supposed to come to the conclusion that the chopsticks were infused with ki.

But thanks for the info. So long it's legitimate, that's a new thing about ki I didn't know about and it's definitely interesting.

[RandomGuy96]

If that is legit, then I guess Goten and Trunks actually developed such ki manipulation techniques and future Trunks didn't use it (judging from the description of his sword and the fact that it broke against #18).

I still don't believe it was the sword there; not only does that completely kill the point Trunks was trying to make to King Cold, but it makes Trunks look like a moron. A sword that is unable to cut SS Yardrat Goku is supposed to be useful against the androids? Why would he even carry around a sword that can't even scratch those he's actually trying to fight?

[hleV]

I still don't believe it was the sword there; not only does that completely kill the point Trunks was trying to make to King Cold, but it makes Trunks look like a moron. A sword that is unable to cut SS Yardrat Goku is supposed to be useful against the androids? Why would he even carry around a sword that can't even scratch those he's actually trying to fight?

Well why would Trunks carry the sword in the first place, if he was too weak to cut the androids anyway?

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

Trunks talks about his sword rather than his ability to infuse ki into it, so I think it's the sword (not saying that an ordinary human would have the strength to cut Freeza with it). Though I'm not sure what to make it of Goku's response.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So if it's indeed possible to empower an item with ki, a new question pops up: is it visible? Supposedly it's visible in-game (though I'd still be willing to disregard in-game visual effects when discussing the universe), can it also be invisible?

My guess is that it depends in the level that the weapons are empowered, it's invisible at small levels, but visible at extreme levels.

not only does that completely kill the point Trunks was trying to make to King Cold

What did Trunks say?

[goku the krump dancer]

Janemba's swords swipes were visible so, I guess so.

But yeah I'm also of the notion that while Goten and Present-Time Trunks developed the Kikoukenjustsu, Future Trunks just used his raw power to slice through Freeza, whom he was obviously stronger than. While he was much weaker than #18 and wasnt strong enough to even cut her, let alone slice and dice her.

I think the point Trunks was trying to make to King Cold was that "Its not the sword itself that does the damage, but the guy who's wielding it". King Cold was arguably even weaker than Freeza so he, definitely wasn't slicing through Trunks in no way shape or form.

[RandomGuy96]

Well why would Trunks carry the sword in the first place, if he was too weak to cut the androids anyway?

Because it's still better than using his fists. But if the sword has a limit to what it can cut, and SS Yardrat Goku is above it, there's no excuse for Trunks to still be carrying the sword when the androids arrive. The Daizenshuu merely restates what happened; he cut Freeza, he didn't cut Goku or 18.

What did Trunks say?

I don't remember him saying anything, but I thought the whole point of him letting Cold have the sword under the belief that the sword was what beat Freeza, was to prove him wrong by effortlessly deflecting the blade and then one-shotting him. In other words, it's not the sword, it's the person wielding it. Which is just dumb if it actually is the sword, and that even if the person wielding it was waaaay stronger than their opponent the sword still wouldn't do anything.