How would you have done the Cell arc?

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:28 am

I'm not going to attempt to rewrite the whole arc here, as that would take far more effort than I'm willing to put in. If I have to stick to what's already there rather than completely rewrite it, I'd just make a few key changes that wouldn't fix all the problems, but at least solve some of the more glaring issues. For example:

-Cut Mecha Freeza (no pun intended). Him dying on Namek is much more fitting in every way; the way he was killed off here is just extremely sloppy. If Trunks REALLY needs someone to off, just have King Cold come alone. He's not as strong as as Freeza, but he's close enough; just have everyone freaking the hell out about a new massive ki coming to Earth, with Gohan saying that it rivals Freeza's own, and have Trunks come in, talk to him a little, and one-shot him. This would still get the message through that Trunks is badass and Freeza's level of power is irrelevant, similar to how the Saibamen were used to let the humans and Piccolo look impressive and show they've surpassed Raditz, despite Raditz being decently stronger than a Saibaman.

-Have Piccolo's fusion with Kami actually accomplish something. For example, have him defeat 17, and only get beaten by Imperfect Cell because Cell snuck up on him after he exhausted himself in the previous fight. This would, A, make the fusion less worthless, and B, emphasize Cell's cunning and sneaky side.

-Don't have Gohan do a total 180 at the Cell Games. Have it be like the Bojack movie, where he tries to fight but the villain simply overpowers him, making him helpless to do anything but watch as his friends are beaten down by the villain's henchmen, until he's driven to the breaking point. Also, insert SOME foreshadowing or build-up for him taking the final spotlight.

-The ROSAT. Either cut it and contrive a new plot device or give a damn good explanation for why A. it makes them so powerful and B. Goku and Gohan didn't use it during the three years of training and then roflstomp the androids.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Fizzer » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:36 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:...give a damn good explanation for why A. it makes them so powerful and B. Goku and Gohan didn't use it during the three years of training and then roflstomp the androids.
Well the extreme conditions, including x10 gravity, make it much more effective training than just training on Earth. Didn't Kaio say something like a hundred days of training on his planet was like a thousand years of training on Earth?

As for why they didn't use it before, you only get to spend two days in there in a lifetime, and they had three years anyway, which they thought would be enough. Everything seemed to imply that Goku being alive and some extra preparation would turn the tables, which would have been the case had the androids not been stronger than those that Trunks knew and had Cell not shown up.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Duo » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:16 pm

I feel like I answered this elseware recently, but I suppose a copy/paste would be lazy.

I'd have done a lot more with the "creepy" factor Cell had going when he first appeared. I found that a lot more interesting than when he became complete and overpowered. I prefer the idea of a villain who is considerably weaker than the protagonists and has to be sneaky/underhanded to compensate that weakness while closing the gap via absorbing humans.

I also prefer the idea of Cell never absorbing both artificial humans. It would be neat to me if the characters were left wondering how absurdly powerful he would have been had he attained his complete state.

As for Gohan, I would have preferred he (and Super Saiyan 2) be presented in a way similar to how he was in Movie 9.
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Fizzer » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:00 pm

Duo wrote: I also prefer the idea of Cell never absorbing both artificial humans. It would be neat to me if the characters were left wondering how absurdly powerful he would have been had he attained his complete state.
I've wondered about this before, and also Piccolo never regaining his youth and Buu never being released. What if the only way to victory was to prevent these things, and once they'd occurred there was nothing to be done? Kind of like preventing the return of Sauron in Lord of the Rings, and stuff like that. It would make the stories less homogenous, but I think in this day and age people *expect* the protagonists to fail with that kind of task and then manage to beat said unbeatable opponent anyway.

With Cell there is a big opportunity to solve some of the "problems" with the arc though. If Cell only absorbed #17, not #18, but then the story went a bit more like the perfect Cell section of the story, with Gohan defeating him, we'd cut out a lot of the badly-explained power boosts (most notably Vegeta and Trunks), and the problem I've always had accepting that #18 was still alive and whole inside Cell.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Duo » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:28 pm

Fizzer wrote:I've wondered about this before, and also Piccolo never regaining his youth and Buu never being released. What if the only way to victory was to prevent these things, and once they'd occurred there was nothing to be done? Kind of like preventing the return of Sauron in Lord of the Rings, and stuff like that. It would make the stories less homogenous, but I think in this day and age people *expect* the protagonists to fail with that kind of task and then manage to beat said unbeatable opponent anyway.

With Cell there is a big opportunity to solve some of the "problems" with the arc though. If Cell only absorbed #17, not #18, but then the story went a bit more like the perfect Cell section of the story, with Gohan defeating him, we'd cut out a lot of the badly-explained power boosts (most notably Vegeta and Trunks), and the problem I've always had accepting that #18 was still alive and whole inside Cell.
You're right (and I agree with all of your words). The audience for Dragon Ball is trained to expect the villain to attain his greatest possible power and then have the heroes rise up to and surpass it. Having even ONE major story arc break this trend would have kept a lot of minds open for the type of outcome we see in, say, Battle of Gods.

The characters who are smart about it (Piccolo trying to murder #17 and get #18 to flee) ultimately get tossed aside, giving way to such wonderfully intelligent moments as Vegeta letting Cell become complete, or Kuririn smashing the remote. You don't forget those kinds of decisions and it kind of drags the characters down subconsciously. It's more interesting if the heroes win knowing that they could have never beat Cell had he absorbed #18.
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Fizzer » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:41 pm

Duo wrote:
Fizzer wrote:I've wondered about this before, and also Piccolo never regaining his youth and Buu never being released. What if the only way to victory was to prevent these things, and once they'd occurred there was nothing to be done? Kind of like preventing the return of Sauron in Lord of the Rings, and stuff like that. It would make the stories less homogenous, but I think in this day and age people *expect* the protagonists to fail with that kind of task and then manage to beat said unbeatable opponent anyway.

With Cell there is a big opportunity to solve some of the "problems" with the arc though. If Cell only absorbed #17, not #18, but then the story went a bit more like the perfect Cell section of the story, with Gohan defeating him, we'd cut out a lot of the badly-explained power boosts (most notably Vegeta and Trunks), and the problem I've always had accepting that #18 was still alive and whole inside Cell.
You're right (and I agree with all of your words). The audience for Dragon Ball is trained to expect the villain to attain his greatest possible power and then have the heroes rise up to and surpass it. Having even ONE major story arc break this trend would have kept a lot of minds open for the type of outcome we see in, say, Battle of Gods.

The characters who are smart about it (Piccolo trying to murder #17 and get #18 to flee) ultimately get tossed aside, giving way to such wonderfully intelligent moments as Vegeta letting Cell become complete, or Kuririn smashing the remote. You don't forget those kinds of decisions and it kind of drags the characters down subconsciously. It's more interesting if the heroes win knowing that they could have never beat Cell had he absorbed #18.
Yeah, the only issue is that, since people expect the villain to reach full-power, I think most of the audience would be disappointed if that didn't happen. They'd feel let down if they never got to see Cell's final form, or if they never got to see Buu. I think people would call it a cop-out or lazy writing, even if it actually made a more believable story.

It could work if Piccolo Daimao never got to make his wish, as that was the first of scenario of this kind. If Piccolo had been stopped, then the same kind of thing would be open to happen in the future too, but since he wasn't, that's what we expect every time and everything before Cell absorbs #18 feels like the "build-up" to the super powerful villain that we know we're going to get.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Duo » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:55 pm

I'm totally OK with the audience being a bit disappointed. What's to stop the anime writers from doing one of the movies in such a way where the villain sold short would acquire their full power? Seems more interesting to me than many of the stories we got instead.

I've sometimes thought the way the Freeza fight ended was some cop-out nonsense. Yeah, we see the full extent of his power, but buffing up made his last stage look ridiculous. And then the battle ends because Goku says "You're pretty worn out. Bye." How is that satisfying?
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:02 pm

I suppose I would have given Gohan some more build up in the arc prior to the Cell Games and I also would have given Cell some more foreshadowing prior to his official debut in the manga.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by DonZ » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:04 pm

"How would you have done the Cell arc"
I wouldn't change anything, it's perfect as it is.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by thatdbzguy » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:19 pm

DonZ wrote:"How would you have done the Cell arc"
I wouldn't change anything, it's perfect as it is.
:lol: And Justin Bieber is the greatest singer alive.
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by DonZ » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:24 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:
DonZ wrote:"How would you have done the Cell arc"
I wouldn't change anything, it's perfect as it is.
:lol: And Justin Bieber is the greatest singer alive.
I don't know why are you bothering yourself with the Cell arc that much. we get the idea, you hate it. it makes you look like you're trolling instead of sharing your own opinion.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Duo » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:25 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:
DonZ wrote:"How would you have done the Cell arc"
I wouldn't change anything, it's perfect as it is.
:lol: And Justin Bieber is the greatest singer alive.
Please let's not derail the thread over this. I agree with you that the Cell arc has a great deal of flaws, but I'm not on a quest to prove it or provoke others who state otherwise.
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:25 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:
DonZ wrote:"How would you have done the Cell arc"
I wouldn't change anything, it's perfect as it is.
:lol: And Justin Bieber is the greatest singer alive.
For someone who claims to lack confidence, you sure have enough confidence to go around when you disagree with something.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by thatdbzguy » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:30 pm

rereboy wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote:
DonZ wrote:"How would you have done the Cell arc"
I wouldn't change anything, it's perfect as it is.
:lol: And Justin Bieber is the greatest singer alive.
For someone who claims to lack confidence, you sure have enough confidence to go around when you disagree with something.
I have enough confidence to stick with my negative opinions. Just not my positive ones.
Khalid Shahin wrote:
Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:31 pm

You're more troubled than I thought.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Duo » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:32 pm

Private messages anybody? I don't think there's anybody left you have to convince, thatdbzguy. No need to ridicule somebody for disagreeing.
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Fizzer » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:44 pm

I feel sorry for ThatDBZGuy at this point. I know he did go overboard, but now every time he says anything negative (which would be fine from anyone else), even though he isn't ranting and he's been saying positive stuff too now, people start picking up the pitch forks and torches. It would be better if the whole "DBZ is bad" episode could blow over, because it had calmed down quite a lot now, and ThatDBZGuy's posts could be judged just like any other member's.

The response he gave just now would have just been taken as the joke that it was if it came from anyone else :/

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by andrewtuell1991 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:44 pm

Can't believe I didn't remember this until now.

[quote=Shenlong Times #2]Akira Toriyama: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect form, which was to Kondō-san‘s liking.[/quote]

Apparently he wanted to do more with Cell's first and second forms, but his then editor, Yu Kondo, disliked them so Toriyama was forced to rush through them. Unfortunately, he didn't give any details as to what he wanted to do with them. Well given his track record, I doubt he would remember. :lol:

Anyways, maybe that's the reason many people find Cell to be the most underdeveloped villain of the "Z" era of Dragon Ball, his development was rushed. It would've been interesting to see what more AT could've done with Cell's 2nd form outside of getting a one-sided ass-beating from Super Vegeta.

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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by EXBadguy » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:37 pm

I too think the Cell Saga is the best. Loved everything about it from top to bottom but there is a couple things I could've fixed.

1. Make the last fight more epic. Even though I loved it, I thought there would be more epic things for it. Instead of Cell just killing Trunks, he could've just killed the others too and then put Vegeta to sleep with a complete bitch-slap. Then him and Gohan have a stand-off talk like this, http://youtu.be/SAKIty2fvCA?t=1m5s (at 1:05 to 1:33) and then could have just one more brawl. A brawl more epic than the last fight of Goku vs Frieza, and then end with the Kamehameha struggle, along with Vegeta waking up to help both Goku and Gohan.

2. Make Cell's "Super" perfect form different, like the one with the hair, http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... ncepts.png , that IMO could've been perfect for his "reborn" form.
andrewtuell1991 wrote:Seriously, fuck Future Trunks. He's an annoying, angsty, border-line Mary Sue who barely contributes jackshit to the overall story and does nothing but whine and moan. He's my 3rd most hated character next to Broly and Kaioshit. Now, you're thinking how could the Cell arc function without the whiny little bishounen?
Whoa, "Mary Sue"? You going too far there. While I do see a couple MS traits in him, the big difference between them is that AT LEAST Trunks wanted to fight before Gohan died and he got all his Super Saiyan powers. All Mary Sue did is cry(and I haven't seen all Star Trek films)

Wow, this forum IS the minority of fans like some people said...along with the whole internet being the minority too cuz all they do is have these hipster attitudes(not counting you guys though, yall made some valid reasons). Whenever I ask a fan or a somebody who hasn't seen the show in a long time, who is their favorite DBZ warrior, it's always Trunks.
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Re: How would you have done the Cell arc?

Post by Codarik » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:23 pm

Either had Krillin push the button to destroy 18 or have Vegeta destroy Cell. I personally can't stand it when a TV series or a movie is dragged out cause of a characters stupidity. The Simpsons Movie I'm looking at you.

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