Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not really interested in a number, but where do you all place Super Uub in comparison to the other GT characters?

Stronger than everyone but the three Super Saiyan 4, Super Baby 2, Super #17, San Xing Long, Si Xing Long, and Yi Xing Long.

[Saiga]

I'm not really interested in a number, but where do you all place Super Uub in comparison to the other GT characters?

Stronger than Baby arc Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and maybe Super Baby 1 (what I consider Super Saiyan 2 Baby Vegeta). Weaker than any post-Baby arc Super Saiyan, maybe weaker than base Saiyans as well.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not really interested in a number, but where do you all place Super Uub in comparison to the other GT characters?

Weaker than SS4 Goku and Vegeta, Syn/Omega Shenron, Nuova Shenron, Super 17, Super Baby 3 and Golden Ozaru Baby. Stronger than everyone else. Logically though, he should only be as strong as Super Buu... which he can actually be if you ignore what Goku said about Super Baby.

Nope, and that's not something you need or want to worry too much about. The official numbers and even the numbers from the manga were never strict about what can or can't be done at certain power gaps, so don't let anyone tell you "have to" give a character some 1-point-whatever times advantage over someone else for something.

They're not strict, but there was still some hint of coherence to them. While factors besides battle power definitely are important to the outcome (state of mind, skill, physical attributes), there still should be some sense to the power levels themselves. Otherwise, what's the point? If you just say "anyone can do anything at any power level", and have stuff like someone tanking a hit and someone selling a hit with the exact same gaps, you've effectively killed the whole point of even making a list: to illustrate exactly how strong everyone is in relation to everyone else.

Anyway, there's no real commonly accepted gaps, and fight performance can of course vary based on non power level factors. If you consider Captain Ginyu a reliable source of information, then roughly a 50% advantage (e.g. 60 vs 40) is basically where the weaker fighter has zero chance; the stronger fighter can tank hits, completely out speed his opponent, and in some cases simply OHKO them. This is the gap I have between 17 and 16, Gohan and Super Buu, Buuhan and Vegetto, etc. If you go by the Daizenshuu, a 25% advantage (e.g. 12 vs 15) is enough to dominate your opponent, but not enough to stomp them completely (i.e. they can still put up a bit of a fight, maybe even win if they get REALLY lucky). That's the gap I have between Goku and Freeza, Super Buu and Gotenks, Mr. Buu and Pure Buu, etc. Also, all cases we saw of a 33% advantage, both through statements and implications (kaio-ken x3 Goku vs Vegeta, Vegeta vs Cui, Buutenks vs Gohan), the stronger fighter dominated the weaker one to a slightly greater extent than fighters with a 25% gap. That's not to say that someone with that gap COULDN'T put up any form of fight, just that in the cases we saw, they didn't. But these are just examples.

In special cases, people can indeed do something beyond what their power level would suggest. Vegeta was able to OHKO Goku with a surprise hit in the Buu Saga despite not being stronger than him. A similar thing happened with Nappa vs Piccolo in the Saiyan Saga. 970 Yajirobe managed to damage ~9,000 Vegeta with a surprise hit. 24,000 Vegeta two-shotted 18,000 Cui, even though Goku couldn't do the same to Vegeta with literally the exact same power gap (likely because Cui's state of mind and cowardice resulted in a loss of ki). And >120 million Freeza nearly defeated 150 million Goku with a specialized cutting technique. But all of these had special circumstances, and should not really be taken as evidence that they can do these things without these advantages (surprise, pathetic opponents, special techniques).

[Kaboom]

Well, I was just trying to get a relatively simple message across, but okay.

[RandomGuy96]

Anyway. I didn't post the first eight arcs to my list on 194 because the levels there are for the most part already covered by official publications, and I didn't want to make the post unnecessarily long, but I may as well throw out my levels for everyone when they were fighting Freeza, before Goku arrived:

Freeza-
--First Form- 530,00
--Second Form- 1,200,000
--Third Form- 1,800,000
--True Form (3%)- 3,600,000

Vegeta-
--vs First Form Freeza- 450,000
--Post-'Super Saiyan'- 2,000,000

Piccolo-
--Initial- 400,000
--Fused- 1,200,000

Gohan-
--vs first form Freeza- 300,000
--post-zenkai- 900,000
--Enraged (+Masenko)- 1,620,000

Krillin- 250,000

I used to have Vegeta slightly higher, at maybe 2.2-2.5 million, but Freeza easily knocking away his biggest strongest attack convinced me to lower him. But even assuming Freeza had to temporarily shoot up his power a bit to block that, I still like Vegeta where I have him; at 2.5 million, Vegeta would be nearly on par with base Goku, which I don't think fits the story at all.

[Saiga]

What're your power levels for South Kaioshin, everyone? And knowing the Makaioshin were "currently inferior" to the Kaioshin (or however it was said) how do you interpret their standing? The members being weaker than East Kaioshin, or the collective group being weaker than the collective group of the Kaioshin?

[ZombieVito]

Remember that Freeza powered up twice on his second form.

[RandomGuy96]

What're your power levels for South Kaioshin, everyone?

Well, you've already seen mine, but: 27 billion. It works with the math I have for the forms of Buu and also fits his filler fight with Pure Buu.

And knowing the Makaioshin were "currently inferior" to the Kaioshin (or however it was said) how do you interpret their standing? The members being weaker than East Kaioshin, or the collective group being weaker than the collective group of the Kaioshin?

Do you have the exact quote? At first I thought that it should just mean that the Maksiohin as a group, are weaker than the Kaioshin, but if it did say "currently", then they should all be weaker than East Kaioshin, since he's the only Kaioshin that's still around. But then, that depends on what time period "currently" was even supposed to be referring to; did it reference the Kaioshin as a group or...?

Remember that Freeza powered up twice on his second form.

Yeah, I remember. i just didn't think that they were really worth noting. For what it's worth, I have Freeza starting out below one million and only exceeding it with his second power up.

[Saiga]

According to Toriyama in the 2009 Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume, the Demon Realm is home to the Makaiō (魔界王; “Demon Realm Kings”) and Makaiōshin (魔界王神; “Gods of the Demon Realm Kings”), who rule over evil and are the antitheses of the Kaiō and Kaiōshin. Toriyama does not really say where Makaiō and Makaiōshin come from, only that delinquent members of the Shin-jin (literally “Core People”; the Kaiō and Kaiōshin are members of this race) go to be with the Makaiō and Makaiōshin. It is not clear whether these evil Shin-jin ultimately become Makaiō and Makaiōshin themselves, or if they simply serve as their allies. It is not known how many Makaiō and Makaiōshin there are, though if they are like their good counterparts, there should be five of each. Importantly, it is also unclear whether or not Dabra himself is a Makaiō or Makaiōshin. He is called the king of the Demon Realm (魔界の王/makai no ō), which is what “Makaiō” means, but the terms “Makaiō” and “Makaiōshin” are never used in the series. Also, Toriyama says that currently, the Makaiōshin are weaker than the Kaiōshin, but East Kaiōshin was terrified of Dabra’s strength. It is possible that Dabra is simply a “regular” inhabitant of the Demon Realm who happens to have surpassed the gods who are supposed to be supreme there, similar to how Goku himself eventually surpassed the various regular gods, including Kaiōshin.

From Kanzenshuu's Demon Guide, emphasis mine. I've always been confused by what the hell "currently" is supposed to mean when Kaioshin (fused with Kibito) is the only one left at the end of the story.

[Herms]

Yeah, I'm really not sure what Toriyama means by "currently" there. Does he mean the general time period of DB (making them presumably weaker than regular East Kaioshin), or the state of affairs at the end of the series (so maybe they're only inferior to Kibito-Kaioshin)?

[ZombieVito]

Remember that Freeza powered up twice on his second form.

Yeah, I remember. i just didn't think that they were really worth noting. For what it's worth, I have Freeza starting out below one million and only exceeding it with his second power up.

This actually makes a lot of sense. That would also make the gaps between Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku bigger.

My new PL for this:

Spoiler:

Vegeta (Continued Zenkai Increase): 350,000
Vegeta (Full Power): 500,000
Vegeta (Zenkai): 2,200,000
Son Gohan (Continued Potencial Unlock Increase): 250,000
Son Gohan (Mad): 900,000
Son Gohan (Zenkai): 400,000
Son Gohan (Enraged): 1,600,000
Piccolo (After Training On North Kaiosama's Planet With Weighted Clothes): 275,000
Piccolo (After Training On North Kaiosama's Planet Without Weighted Clothes): 300,000
Piccolo (Fused With Nail With Weighted Clothes): 1,000,000
Piccolo (Without Weighted Clothes): 1,200,000
Krillin (Continued Potencial Unlock Increase): 200,000
Freeza (3rd Suppression): 400,000
Freeza (3rd Suppression, Full Power): 530,000
Freeza (2nd Suppression): 850,000
Freeza (2nd Suppression, Power up): 950,000
Freeza (2nd Suppression, Full Power): 1,100,000
Freeza (1st Suppression): 1,800,000
Freeza (True Form): 3,000,000

[Kaboom]

That is a good possibility if one finds it necessary, after all, if this quote's correct, then...

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P9.1-2
Freeza: "At any rate, my power is excessive. Perhaps I've overdone it... Kukkukku... Incidentally, if [my strength] were put into battle power, it would be over 1,000,000, surely..."
Vegeta: “Wh-what!?”

Freeza doesn't specify with "my strength right now" or anything of the sort. So he very well could mean his maximum in that form.

[RandomGuy96]

Zombie, I think you have Vegeta (both against first and third form Freeza) too high, as well as FP 2nd form Freeza and initial final form Freeza too low. Vegeta was tired out by his and Freeza's initial grapple, huffing and puffing and talking about how he needed Gohan and Krillin, while Freeza was unphased and wasn't even breathing hard. As for 2nd form Freeza: he was beating up Piccolo before Piccolo took off his weights, which doesn't seem right for someone barley stronger than Piccolo. Also, final form Freeza moved too fast for Vegeta to see and easily knocked away his big blast with one foot, which seems beyond the capabilities of someone only like x1.33 stronger than him. Finally, initial final form Freeza should have a pretty beefy advantage on base Goku rather than being equal with him, considering he managed to fight him without hands for a little while, had the advantage whenever they fought hand to hand, forced Goku to use tactics to overcome him, and completely shrugged off Goku's surprise flying kick.

[ZombieVito]

I agree on initial Vegeta (480,000 now) and Initial true form Freeza (I'll go with 3,300,000) but not the rest.

While FP 2nd form Freeza did put Piccolo down quickly, he wasn't hurt at all. His Ki wasn't even stated to go down at all. I think the gap is fine.

A 1.33 gap is big, Vegeta two shotted Cui with that gap. Besides it doesn't suit with me having Vegeta that close to 3rd form Freeza.

[RandomGuy96]

I agree on initial Vegeta (480,000 now) and Initial true form Freeza (I'll go with 3,300,000) but not the rest.

While FP 2nd form Freeza did put Piccolo down quickly, he wasn't hurt at all. His Ki wasn't even stated to go down at all. I think the gap is fine.

A 1.33 gap is big, Vegeta two shotted Cui with that gap. Besides it doesn't suit with me having Vegeta that close to 3rd form Freeza.

Eh... I still think the gaps between 1st form Freeza/Vegeta and initial Freeza/base Goku are too small, but that's down to personal preference I suppose.

Vegeta only killed Cui with two hits likely because of Cui's mental state, which would lower his ki; by comparison, Vegeta survived a beating + a Kamehameha from Goku with literally the exact same gap and wasn't even seriously injured. Also, Freeza was able to easily back Vegeta's full power planet buster, while Vegeta had to dodge Cui's generic ki blasts.

Well, 3rd form Freeza just beat up Piccolo, so he doesn't even need to necessarily be that high. For example:

Piccolo- 12
3rd form Freeza- 16
Vegeta- 20
Initial Freeza- 33

[ZombieVito]

But then Freeza's transformation will not been that big of a boost and to be honest, gaps mean nothing when Freeza's 120,000,000 is official. He should have been killed easily if we go by gaps. They are too inconsistent to take that seriously.

[RandomGuy96]

Speaking of gaps...

More small changes. To my Cell Games levels now; I changed the way Gohan, Goku, and Cell all compare to each other.

Spoiler:

Gohan- 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 7,500,000,000

Goku- 44,000,000
--50% Super Saiyan Power- 1,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 2,200,000,000

Perfect Cell-
--vs Goku- 2,500,000,000
--Full Power- 5,000,000,000
--Super Perfect- 7,200,000,000

Cell Jr- 1,700,000,000

BUU SAGA

Dabra- 5,000,000,000

[khalildh]

End of Namek Saga

The Galactic Tyrant Frieza
Frieza 100% Final Form: 120

Goku: 3
SSJ: 150

The Threats are not All Gone

A Mysterious Super Warrior Appears
Mecha Frieza: 150

Trunks: 4
SSJ Trunks: 200

Goku: 5
SSJ Goku: 250

An Apocalyptic future
Future Gohan: 200
Future 17: 450
Future Goku: 250

3 Years Go By

The Androids Appear
Goku: 6
Goku Virus SSJ: 37.5 (Constant Decrease)

Vegeta: 6
SSJ Vegeta: 300

Piccolo: 6 (Suppressed)
Gohan: 3
Yamcha: 3
Kuririn: 3.5
Tien: 3.5
Piccolo: 200 (Unsuppressed)

19: 5
19: 40 (Post Absorption)

20: 7
20: Stronger than 7, but less than 100 Million.

The Real Enemy is Revealed
18: 550
17: 575
16: 620
Imperfect Cell: 400 (Inital)

Kamicollo: 575
Imperfect cell: 620 (After absorbing 600,000 people)

Semi- Perfect Cell: 1200
Vegeta: 25
Super Vegeta: 1375

Perfect Cell: 1700
Trunks: 23
Ultra Trunks: 1760

The Cell Games
Goku: 28
PSSJ: 1680

Vegeta: 28
SSJ: 1400
USSJ: 1540

Piccolo: 750

Trunks: 25
SSJ: 1250
Super Trunks: 1375
Ultra Trunks: 2000

Perfect Cell: 1700 (Supressed)
Perfect Cell: 2000

Cell Jr: 1700

Gohan: 30
SSJ: 1500
PSSJ: 1800
Angered PSSJ: 2000
SSJ2: 3000


Super Perfect Cell: 3000

7 Years Later

A Grand Tournament
Goku: 35
SSJ: 1750

Vegeta: 30
SSJ: 1500

Gohan: 28
SSJ: 1400
SSJ2: 2800

Goten: 2.85
SSJ:142.5

Trunks: 3
SSJ: 150

Piccolo: 800
18: 550
Kibito: 25
Kaioshin: 1000

The Resurrection of Majin Boo

Pui Pui: 1 or less
Yakon: Around 40 , but gets slighty stronger after absorbing light
Dabura: 2000 or 3000, depends on if Gohan was SSJ1 or SSJ2.
Majin Vegeta: 35
SSJ: 1700
SSJ2: 3500

Goku: 35
SSJ: 1700
SSJ2: 3500

The Ultimate Majin

Majin Boo: 6300
Goku: 35
SSJ: 1700
SSJ2: 3500
SSJ3: 7000 (Suppressed)

Gotenks: 25
SSJ: 1250

Good Boo: 2800
Gray Boo: 3500

Into the Room of Spirit and Time
Evil Boo: 10,000
Gotenks: 25
SSJ: 1250
SSJ3: 10,000

An Ultimate Warrior is Born
Chou Gohan: 12,500
Bootenks: 20,000
Boocollo: 10,800
Boohan 23,300
SSJ Vegito: 50,000 (This is actually candy Vegito)

Now Comes the choose your own adventure mode...

OPTION: A
Burly Boo: 13,000
Pure Boo: 7,000
Goku: 35
SSJ: 1750
SSJ2: 3500
SSJ3: 7,000

OPTION: B (Also called the better and canon version)
Burly Boo: 12,000
Pure Boo: 14,000
Goku: 35
SSJ: 1750
SSJ2: 3500
SSJ3: 14,000

Vegeta: 35
SSJ: 1750
SSJ2: 3500

Good Boo: 2800

After careful deliberation I realized that my Android Saga numbers were rather low, and that my Boo Saga numbers gave a large and arbitrary increase that did not belong. I still believe that base Saiyans are weaker than Frieza, but I do agree that they must have gotten a lot stronger in the RoSaT.

[Kaboom]

You want powar levuls? I've got powar levuls! You don't want powar levuls? Well tough noogies, you're gettin' powar levuls anyway!

[ DRAGON BALL Z SERIES POWER LEVELS | MOVIES AND SPECIALS POWER LEVELS ]

I've been working on the movies list for a long time, and in the process my series one kept changing, which made things take even longer. I put as much time and effort into these as any other fanworks project of mine. Fanworks projects which I can now dedicate more time and effort to since these powar levels are done with.

As usual I've got a ton of notes and stuff that should adequately explain everything. If you notice any obvious goof-ups like copy-paste errors, or something missing some zeroes, or me forgetting to make a change in the movies to reflect a change in the series, just tell me. So long as I don't change the file names on DropBox, I can easily make changes to the documents and not break the links in the process.

[Saiga]

Well, if you care enough, Goku's 90,000 comes from Daizenshuu 7.