Sorry America, FUNimation Holds DBZ Season 1 For 2007!

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:47 pm

doobiedoo wrote:Sure, but are the colors correct?

doobiedoo wrote:But the colors on the UU edition are much closer to the original fansubs I have from the early 90's before DBZ ever hit the U.S. Thus my main point I made in my earlier post...

The Dragon Boxes are based off the original 16mm film (which is the original cel photography), so yes, the colors are correct. I will admit that the Dragon Box images you posted do look rather funny, and it almost looks like certain colors are glowing (particularly Goku's gi). The images also look kinda...not blurry...but not as sharp as they should be. I'll tell you right now that the real Dragon Box DVDs don't have these problems, but the colors in those images are still correct. Try to remember that this series was hand-painted on cels in the late 80's, early 90's, and softer color palettes were very common back then. The Ultimate Uncut DVDs are just flat out wrong, you can clearly see (based on the age of the series) that it's not the true animation and that they've been digitally altered.

HOWEVER! Just in case you're thinking "well, Pony Canyon probably altered the Dragon Box images too!", I decided to grab some screens from the original *raw* film of the opening animations. These images have not been altered by anybody; they are literally the original source photography from the animation cels.

If colors must be compared, this is your best bet:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 01_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 02_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 03_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 04_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 05_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 06_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 07_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 08_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 09_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 10_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 11_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 12_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 13_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 14_new.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 15_new.jpg

doobiedoo · Post by **doobiedoo** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:41 pm

DBW wrote:If colors must be compared, this is your best bet:

Thank you very much for the scans of the original cells. Do you have any other scans, or know the location of some that are similar to those links you posted? They do give me a good sense of color comparison so I can decide if I really want the Dragon Box eps or not. I don't watch too many other anime series and I wanted the entire series. I might buy a single disc just to check it out.

VegettoEX wrote:XviD (or any compression scheme) has little to do with the way colors change in the compression.

That was my point... someone else seemed to be making an argument that it would, therefore I should throw out any other encode I ever found unless it was a high quality MPEG2 stream or something.

Thanks for the scans again, and if you can post any more links, let me know...

Plus, if they leave the episode count the same for each box set (which I hope they will even if I don't get them), some sites were selling the that new box set at $20, that makes the whole series somewhere between $150 and $200 bucks, which is outstanding.

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:40 pm

Blitzen wrote:
Tanooki Kuribo wrote:If FUNimation was going to just make an American version Dragonbox, would you buy it? It would probley be around $500.00 though.
In the very highly unlikely event that they would, then sure, I'd go for it. They could do smaller releases and do a dragonbox-like design at a limited quantity (like, very limited) for the hardcore-hardcore market.

I doubt they'd do that. Even with Dragonbox masters, the season boxsets probably wouldn't be more than $100 a piece. Why make something for the hardcore market, when you could make an all-purpose DBZ boxset (Dragonbox, uncut, English & Japanese) that casual fans and hardcore fans alike would buy?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:27 pm

I don't mean to fan these rumors anymore than they already have (people have just accepted that Funimation's statement is proof of DragonBox masters)

But supposing they do have the rights to all the masters now, what would that mean for the DragonBall Z movies?

Right now, the only thing that Funimation's movies have that Toei's doesn't, is the entire screen (albeit slightly zoomed in). Now if Funimation has the same masters for the movies that Toei does, and they release them the same way minus the black letter bars, their product would actually be superior for once!

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:42 pm

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

On one side of the spectrum, you have the Funimation version, which is full screen, but has a lower quality image. On the other side, you have re-mastered footage, but letterbox format.

Maybe they will have an option whether or not to put both Fullscreen and Letterbox format.

Another maybe: The masters are also fullscreen, but cut down to letterbox like they did with their original releases.

SonGokuGT · Post by **SonGokuGT** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:34 pm

Tanooki Kuribo wrote:If FUNimation was going to just make an American version Dragonbox, would you buy it? It would probley be around $500.00 though.

Fuck...YEAH!

Maybe that's what they meant by the change in pricing and running time? :/

Blitzen · Post by **Blitzen** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:32 pm

doobiedoo wrote:Plus, if they leave the episode count the same for each box set (which I hope they will even if I don't get them), some sites were selling the that new box set at $20, that makes the whole series somewhere between $150 and $200 bucks, which is outstanding.

The first set being $20 was due to a misunderstanding in FUNimation's solicitations. Rather than issue a new solicitation for the set, they simply changed the retail price and details of UUE Vol. 10 to be the first boxset. Some retailers got the new information, but for orders already placed they had to honour the price they were selling it for, and for some stores, the discount rate 'didn't change' due to admin oversights.

I doubt they'd do that. Even with Dragonbox masters, the season boxsets probably wouldn't be more than $100 a piece. Why make something for the hardcore market, when you could make an all-purpose DBZ boxset (Dragonbox, uncut, English & Japanese) that casual fans and hardcore fans alike would buy?

I didn't make myself very clear, sorry.

Basically, what I mean is you produce the eight or so sets that you normally would. These would be available to everyone, hardcore or not. However, and this is very HIGHLY wishful thinking to don't 'school' me on why or how FUNimation wouldn't do it, is they could make a varient style of packaging on a very limited run, that'd say, only be available through TRSI and limited only to preorders. These limited versions would be Dragonbox-like packaging. It's not the worst idea, impractical yes, but not bad.

(people have just accepted that Funimation's statement is proof of DragonBox masters)

People shouldn't (I find it far more likely they were able to obtain Spain's masters. )

But supposing they do have the rights to all the masters now, what would that mean for the DragonBall Z movies?

Right now, the only thing that Funimation's movies have that Toei's doesn't, is the entire screen (albeit slightly zoomed in). Now if Funimation has the same masters for the movies that Toei does, and they release them the same way minus the black letter bars, their product would actually be superior for once!

The problem is, the masters based their movies box on are always going to be 16:9 because apparently, they're the best ones you can use for DVD releases. Everything else is well, not as good anymore, and wouldn't be able to reach that level of video quality.

SonGokuGT · Post by **SonGokuGT** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:40 pm

Um, Blitzen... Spain's masters appear to be "touched-up" DragonBox masters...

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:55 pm

In any event, I at least want the rest of the Vegeta Saga and first half of the Freeza saga released in these Ultimate Uncut volumes. I have everything else released thus far by Funimation:

-(Trimark) DB Saga of Goku
-Rest of DB in Funimation 2 disc sets.
-DB Movie box set

-Ginyu saga through end of DBZ, every volume

-Funimation/Pioneer DBZ Movies 1-3
-Ultimate Uncut DBZ Movie 1
-Funimation DBZ Movies 4-12
-Bardock and Trunks Specials

- all of GT and GT special

So I damn near want those last few volumes to complete that set. Then, if these new sets are worthwhile, then heck I might get them too. I don't want to be left dangling with the original set of individuals I've been collecting for 4 years now to go incomplete though. That would eternally agitate me to no end.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:30 pm

SonGokuGT wrote:Um, Blitzen... Spain's masters appear to be "touched-up" DragonBox masters...

Well, I don't have the VOB's on hand, but to me they didn't appear to be. Heck, the JPEG comparision that was posted here was biased (all the Spanish DVD screens were larger by a decent margin than the Dragonbox shots). If anyone wants to assist me in a comparision that has the disc, contact me. I can analyze the two and tell you if they do share a common source.

-Corey

Blitzen · Post by **Blitzen** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:34 pm

SonGokuGT wrote:Um, Blitzen... Spain's masters appear to be "touched-up" DragonBox masters...

Looks can be deceiving.

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:45 pm

Blitzen wrote: I didn't make myself very clear, sorry.

No problem. I didn't mean to sound like a jerk (if I came off that way, sorry

)... It would be awesome if FUNi did something like that, but FUNi's business practices are proof otherwise.

On the video side, I don't know what they're going to do, and I'm not going to speculate too much either. They could get the Dragonbox masters, get masters from another source, or even remaster their own masters... who knows?

Personally, I'm going to expect the same grainy transfers FUNi's always used, so that way, if it's the same thing, I won't be disappointed. But if the video happens to be improved/remastered, then I'll be pleasantly surprised.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:46 pm

Well we may have more answers after this saturday. Untill then we can only do what we are good at, speculating.

Blitzen · Post by **Blitzen** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:58 pm

theoriginalbilis wrote: No problem. I didn't mean to sound like a jerk (if I came off that way, sorry )... It would be awesome if FUNi did something like that, but FUNi's business practices are proof otherwise.

If it's any consilation, FUNimation have done some fucking awesome v1+boxes for other anime series.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:08 pm

doobiedoo wrote: Thank you very much for the scans of the original cells. Do you have any other scans, or know the location of some that are similar to those links you posted?

If I'm not mistaken, DBW's source is one of the extras on the DragonBoxes, therefore he could technically (or I could, if you ask nicely and I have spare time...which I haven't in months >_>;; ) take any screen of the intros and endings.

That was my point... someone else seemed to be making an argument that it would, therefore I should throw out any other encode I ever found unless it was a high quality MPEG2 stream or something.

Eh, if you're referring to me, You misunderstood. My point was this:

Most groups have no idea how to do a competant encode. Many of them (years ago when I still did this stuff, I used GordianKnot with tweaks) take a set of VOB's and run it through an automated process which writes a pre-processing script, which sometimes attempts to 'normalize' the video by doing auto color balance and contrast/brightness optimizing. An experienced user knows how to disable this, use it properly or write their own script altogether. Plus, insufficient bitrates primarily change colors followed by brightness and contrast. Your particular images appear to have a noise reduction filter applied in addition giving it a soft appearance.

But no, you shouldn't "throw away all [your] encodes", I'm just saying that because it looks better than some of the stuff out there, don't be so sure it's an accurate representation of the source material. Why do I say that?

Well, this is the shot you posted:
Doobiedoo's 'DragonBox' XVid Rip

And this, is the real deal direct from the DragonBox Z Vol. 1, Disc 1, Episode 2 with no filters or tweaking whatsoever:
Notice anything, I dunno, different?

So, you have a nice rip, but one that is changed just like FUNi's releases. Color has been tweaked and seemingly saturation has been increased, and a noise reduction filter was applied. Brightness and contrast also seem a little off. So, no, you don't have a bad rip, but you don't have a exact representation of the DragonBox by any means. I'm not saying that's bad or anything, I'm just pointing it out.

BTW, the comparision images, those are the original Pioneer release, right? Please tell me those aren't the UUE's... >_>;;;

-Corey

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:13 am

Blitzen wrote: If it's any consilation, FUNimation have done some fucking awesome v1+boxes for other anime series.

Oh I know. FUNi's gotten great Japanese artwork for everyone of their other series, but DBZ has always come up short. Thanks for pointing that out though.

doobiedoo · Post by **doobiedoo** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:20 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Notice anything, I dunno, different?

Thanks for the comparison shots. That's exactly the information I was looking for. Like I said above, it was possible they changfed the colors somewhat, but I wasn't sure. That verifies it for me. The reason I mainly thought they hadn't was that many other screen shots I had seen were closer to the encodes. My guess is the encodes I downloaded at the time had too much of a saturation increase (when i rip my own discs, I prefer to leave that alone unless something is REALLY screwed up).

And the screen shots I posted (which I think I need to change to JPEGS for anyone else reading the thread because the server runs out of webspace), they are from one of the two UU's I bought. I knew years ago I would never touch the older DVDs without a Japanese track. That's how I started watching it about 4 years before it came to the states, and that's the way I still watch it.

BoxerGloves · Post by **BoxerGloves** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:39 pm

theoriginalbilis wrote:
Blitzen wrote: If it's any consilation, FUNimation have done some fucking awesome v1+boxes for other anime series.
Oh I know. FUNi's gotten great Japanese artwork for everyone of their other series, but DBZ has always come up short. Thanks for pointing that out though.

Because the DBZ is the most popular anime series FUNi has ever licensed. Therefore, it's only appropriate for FUNimation to give it the most garbage treatment that there is.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:04 pm

doobiedoo wrote:Do you have any other scans, or know the location of some that are similar to those links you posted?

Like XV was saying, those aren't scans of animation cels, just screencaps of the original film. One of the extras of Z Box Vol. 2 is some samples of the raw film source. The point of showing it is that since it's the original photography, that film is essentially the source for all future masters (whether it be broadcast, fansub, FUNimation, Dragon Box or whatever).

It's only really good for comparing colors, though. Since it's an old film reel, the quality can get pretty scary...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 00_new.jpg <- Yikes!

BoxerGloves · Post by **BoxerGloves** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:50 pm

DBW wrote:
doobiedoo wrote:Do you have any other scans, or know the location of some that are similar to those links you posted?
Like XV was saying, those aren't scans of animation cels, just screencaps of the original film. One of the extras of Z Box Vol. 2 is some samples of the raw film source. The point of showing it is that since it's the original photography, that film is essentially the source for all future masters (whether it be broadcast, fansub, FUNimation, Dragon Box or whatever).

It's only really good for comparing colors, though. Since it's an old film reel, the quality can get pretty scary...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... 00_new.jpg <- Yikes!

Holy shizzle!!!
This thing has a picture quality even worse than fansubs, bootlegs, and FUNi DVDs put together. Damn!!!