What If Toriyama Tried To Make DBZ Deep?

[Kid Buu]

I just don't get why so many people have to compare DB to DBZ to see which is better. Originally they are both just called Dragon Ball and I don't think either half is better than the other. For example I think the Freeza arc is better than the 22nd Budokai arc, but I also think the Red Ribbon Army arc is better than the Cell arc.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Facetious answer; thatdbzguy posts a topic about which arc has the least flaws without explicitly naming Z, as he usually does. Gaffer Tape proceeds to be the only poster, last I checked, to even mention an arc that's not Z.

[Kid Buu]

Both garnetjester and I mentioned the RRA arc too actually.

[Saiga]

Facetious answer; thatdbzguy posts a topic about which arc has the least flaws without explicitly naming Z, as he usually does. Gaffer Tape proceeds to be the only poster, last I checked, to even mention an arc that's not Z.

At least in my case I was considering the pre-Z arcs as well when I said the Saiyan arc was the least flawed.

[thatdbzguy]

Considering the fact that many of my friends have seen more anime than myself who grew up with anime (thanks to bootleg dvds from my brother I've seen more than a lifetime worth of anime.....well apparently not). I their opinions are valid and backed up by facts. I also think think DBZ is one of the GOATs. I'm not even bias since DBZ isn't even in my top ten. DBZ not being the best DB is an OPINION. RandomGuy thinks DBZ is the best DB. You're saying that Random is wrong because your opinion is fact? Your point is valid yet at the same time invalid. Not everyone who thinks DBZ is GOAT have nostalgia for it. It's legit how they feel.

DBZ is one of the GOAT. Opinion. What you "thatdbzguy" say about DBZ isn't a FACT. It's an OPINION that you share vocally(Similar to wrestling fans). We've been through this on many threads and they always end up the same.

You start thread about DBZ not being good.
People who like DBZ give you reasons why they think it's good
You make it seem like your opinion is fact
More people come defend
Topic goes dead
You make a new topic which is slightly worded differently to complain about Dbz being bad.

When is this going to end? You already told me why your username is "ThatDbzGuy". But if you hate DBZ so much. Why have a DBZ picture? Why not GT? Why not DB? Why not something else?

Why not use this as your avatar?

Spoiler:

Mods/Admins if I'm going to far. Please warn me so I don't get banned.

Oh good lord, I don't know how may times I have to say this.

I do not hate DBZ.

Do I think it's terrible? Yes. Am I ashamed of liking it? Yes. Do I hate it? I wouldn't be here if I did.

I know whether thinking DBZ is good or not is in opinion. However, the way I see it, there is far more to support the "bad side" of DBZ more than there is the "good side", and I'd like more people to try and see it through my eyes and see what they think about all of it. That's why I make all of these threads.

but I also think the Red Ribbon Army arc is better than the Cell arc.

Everything is better than the Cell arc.

[Kid Buu]

What is it about the Cell arc you hate so much?

[thatdbzguy]

What is it about the Cell arc you hate so much?

Oho, where to begin?

- Cell is the most bland and boring villain I have ever seen
- Most fights are too one-sided
- Every new character introduced in this saga is, like Cell, bland and boring
- Gohan's inexcusable OOC-ness
- Gohan's forced spotlight
- Far too heavy of a reliance on characters being stupid just to move the plot along
- RoSaT being a blatantly obvious Deus Ex Machina
- Vegeta and Trunks not staying in their FPSSJ forms like Goku and Gohan did during the wait for the Cell Games despite admitting that it was a clever idea is incredibly stupid
- Piss-poor final battle

Need I go on?

[Wibbs]

What is it about the Cell arc you hate so much?

Oho, where to begin?

- Cell is the most bland and boring villain I have ever seen
- Most fights are too one-sided
- Every new character introduced in this saga is, like Cell, bland and boring
- Gohan's inexcusable OOC-ness
- Gohan's forced spotlight
- Far too heavy of a reliance on characters being stupid just to move the plot along
- RoSaT being a blatantly obvious Deus Ex Machina
- Vegeta and Trunks not staying in their FPSSJ forms like Goku and Gohan did during the wait for the Cell Games despite admitting that it was a clever idea is incredibly stupid
- Piss-poor final battle

Need I go on?

I'm pretty sure you once said the Cell saga was the most underrated and you only stopped liking it because everybody else hated it.

How was the Time chamber a Dues Ex Machina, they didn't just pull it out of nowhere. It had already been established. Trunks' first appearance would be a better example of a deus ex machina as he's does just show up out of nowhere.

Gohan didn't have a "forced" spotlight, Toriyama had been building up to Gohan being the lead since the beginning.

Vegeta and Trunks didn't achieve the Full Power Super Saiyan, so how may I ask would they stay in a form they didn't have. In case you need further clarification there's an image below.

Spoiler:

Gohan was never out of character, I don't know how many times you have to have this debate with people.

"Cell is bland and boring" please... .

It's unfair to say there was too much reliance on characters acting stupid to move the plot along. Give me one good example of a character acting stupid, and don't cop out and say Vegeta allowing Cell to achieve his perfect form. Cell deceived him, simple as that. I don't see how that makes him stupid.

[thatdbzguy]

I'm pretty sure you once said the Cell saga was the most underrated and you only stopped liking it because everybody else hated it.

How was the Time chamber a Dues Ex Machina, they didn't just pull it out of nowhere. It had already been established. Trunks' first appearance would be a better example of a deus ex machina as he's does just show up out of nowhere.

Gohan didn't have a "forced" spotlight, Toriyama had been building up to Gohan being the lead since the beginning.

Vegeta and Trunks didn't achieve the Full Power Super Saiyan, so how may I ask would they stay in a form they didn't have.

Gohan was never out of character, I don't know how many times you have to have this debate with people.

"Cell is bland and boring" please... .

It's unfair to say there was too much reliance on characters acting stupid to move the plot along. Give me one good example of a character acting stupid, and don't cop out and say Vegeta allowing Cell to achieve his perfect form. Cell deceived him, simple as that. I don't see how that makes him stupid.

That was back when I was being a blind fanboy.

Coming up with a random plot device and then saying "oh yeah, that's been around forever" doesn't make it any less of a DEM.

Gohan was built up in every saga except the one where he actually lived up to that build up. Does that not seem like a major issue to you?

Even if they didn't achieve it, why didn't they even try?

Gohan contradicted what his character was set up to be previously without any good reason. That's being out-of-character.

Yes, Cell is bland and boring.

"What's that? Someone (Dr. Gero) plans to do something that will destroy everyone's way of living? Better let him do it, then."

[Baggie_Saiyan]

What is it about the Cell arc you hate so much?

Oho, where to begin?

- Cell is the most bland and boring villain I have ever seen
- Most fights are too one-sided
- Every new character introduced in this saga is, like Cell, bland and boring
- Gohan's inexcusable OOC-ness
- Gohan's forced spotlight
- Far too heavy of a reliance on characters being stupid just to move the plot along
- RoSaT being a blatantly obvious Deus Ex Machina
- Vegeta and Trunks not staying in their FPSSJ forms like Goku and Gohan did during the wait for the Cell Games despite admitting that it was a clever idea is incredibly stupid
- Piss-poor final battle

Need I go on?

I agree on the whole. Least favourite saga. Mostly 'cuz Gohan didn't appeal to me. Would much rather preferred if it were Trunks who defeated Cell or Krillin.

[Saiga]

Goku and Gohan were maintaining a constant Super Saiyan state after their RoSaT training because it wasn't yet complete. They left the room early. However, Vegeta and Trunks went in for a full year and so they had finished the training by the time they came out and didn't need to maintain the form any more. Nothing stupid about that.

[Wibbs]

I'm pretty sure you once said the Cell saga was the most underrated and you only stopped liking it because everybody else hated it.

How was the Time chamber a Dues Ex Machina, they didn't just pull it out of nowhere. It had already been established. Trunks' first appearance would be a better example of a deus ex machina as he's does just show up out of nowhere.

Gohan didn't have a "forced" spotlight, Toriyama had been building up to Gohan being the lead since the beginning.

Vegeta and Trunks didn't achieve the Full Power Super Saiyan, so how may I ask would they stay in a form they didn't have.

Gohan was never out of character, I don't know how many times you have to have this debate with people.

"Cell is bland and boring" please... .

It's unfair to say there was too much reliance on characters acting stupid to move the plot along. Give me one good example of a character acting stupid, and don't cop out and say Vegeta allowing Cell to achieve his perfect form. Cell deceived him, simple as that. I don't see how that makes him stupid.

That was back when I was being a blind fanboy.

Coming up with a random plot device and then saying "oh yeah, that's been around forever" doesn't make it any less of a DEM.

Gohan was built up in every saga except the one where he actually lived up to that build up. Does that not seem like a major issue to you?

Even if they didn't achieve it, why didn't they even try?

Gohan contradicted what his character was set up to be previously without any good reason. That's being out-of-character.

Yes, Cell is bland and boring.

"What's that? Someone (Dr. Gero) plans to do something that will destroy everyone's way of living? Better let him do it, then."

Now you're a sheep, nothing personal but hating something because someone else does is just blind and ignorant.


It doesn't seem like a major issue, that's just the way Gohan is. When he gets the power he needs it goes to his head and he loses himself in his arrogance. The build up was fine, it was the payoff irked me somewhat.

Maybe they weren't good enough. I don't know.

Gohan is a kid, a kid who doesn't like fighting for no reason. So if he had the opportunity to stop the fighting why not take it. It isn't out of character in the slightest.

Really. Cell is boring. Perhaps you could elaborate on this.

Goku doesn't do things like that, he likes to fight. He likes the challenge, so why then would he, for lack of a better term, cop out and murder the guy before he made the Androids. It isn't Goku's style, besides it's like Goku said, at that point Gero had done nothing wrong.

[thatdbzguy]

Now you're a sheep, nothing personal but hating something because someone else does is just blind and ignorant.


It doesn't seem like a major issue, that's just the way Gohan is. When he gets the power he needs it goes to his head and he loses himself in his arrogance. The build up was fine, it was the payoff irked me somewhat.

Maybe they weren't good enough. I don't know.

Gohan is a kid, a kid who doesn't like fighting for no reason. So if he had the opportunity to stop the fighting why not take it. It isn't out of character in the slightest.

Really. Cell is boring. Perhaps you could elaborate on this.

Goku doesn't do things like that, he likes to fight. He likes the challenge, so why then would he, for lack of a better term, cop out and murder the guy before he made the Androids. It isn't Goku's style, besides it's like Goku said, at that point Gero had done nothing wrong.

Oh, that's another terrible thing about Gohan in this arc. The payoff. Thanks for reminding me.

It's out of character because Gohan knows better. He never went up to a villain before and asked "Plz stop being evil, k?"

If you can't think of reason and resort to saying "I don't know", that just proves my point.

Cell is boring. He has no real goal once he becomes Perfect, and he's just a rehash of all the villains prior to him.

It doesn't matter whether or not it's Goku's style. It was still stupid.

[Wibbs]

Now you're a sheep, nothing personal but hating something because someone else does is just blind and ignorant.


It doesn't seem like a major issue, that's just the way Gohan is. When he gets the power he needs it goes to his head and he loses himself in his arrogance. The build up was fine, it was the payoff irked me somewhat.

Maybe they weren't good enough. I don't know.

Gohan is a kid, a kid who doesn't like fighting for no reason. So if he had the opportunity to stop the fighting why not take it. It isn't out of character in the slightest.

Really. Cell is boring. Perhaps you could elaborate on this.

Goku doesn't do things like that, he likes to fight. He likes the challenge, so why then would he, for lack of a better term, cop out and murder the guy before he made the Androids. It isn't Goku's style, besides it's like Goku said, at that point Gero had done nothing wrong.

Oh, that's another terrible thing about Gohan in this arc. The payoff. Thanks for reminding me.

It's out of character because Gohan knows better. He never went up to a villain before and asked "Plz stop being evil, k?"

If you can't think of reason and resort to saying "I don't know", that just proves my point.

Cell is boring. He has no real goal once he becomes Perfect, and he's just a rehash of all the villains prior to him.

It doesn't matter whether or not it's Goku's style. It was still stupid.

Mmhm, you're welcome.

Gohan never had a reason to say that before, he wasn't completely aware of his rage fits.

Fine if you're going to be like that. Vegeta and Trunks did continue to train, they couldn't keep up with Goku or Gohan. Goku and Gohan discovered the weakness of the ASSJ before they emerged from the Time Chamber so they had longer to master the Super Saiyan form. Even if they had reentered I don't think it would have made a bit of difference, to achieve the FPSSJ you must be relaxed and negate the wild aspects of the normal Super Saiyan form. The way Vegeta trains is to be stronger than Goku, so this idea of keeping a calm mind throughout his training wouldn't cut it with Vegeta, he's too impatient and focused on his rivalry with Goku. On top of that the FPSSJ form was Goku's idea and he suggests Gohan uses it. How could Vegeta and Trunks achieve a form they knew little to nothing about how to do it or even how to sustain it.

Cell's goal was to instill fear in the people of earth, he wasn't happy with just destroying the planet. He wanted it's inhabitants to be scared of him as well.

How was it stupid, knowing three years in advance about the Androids existence gave the z fighters an advantage. It wouldn't be like it was in the future, granted they underestimated the androids, but even still they had time to prepare and train. None of them died, that's what was important.

[goku the krump dancer]

Define depth, it's subjective.

We're waiting ThatDBZGuy.. While you're at it please provide examples of stories you find "deep". It'll help give us a better understanding of where you're coming from.

Also B , Cipher and YuugisBlackMagician hit it on the head for me. As I said in a previous thread, the overly emotional stuff is a huge turn off when it's a constant thing. It's why I most likely will never read or watch One Piece, have shied away from Naruto (even though I still like it) and will probably never get into the other current Shonen Jump series. I'm going to enjoy smashing the newbies' faces in with the Vets once I get my hands on J-Stars.

[baneofdemon22]

Firstly, yes, there are a few users here who agree that DBZ is pretty bad, although I doubt they'd want me to call them out right now.

And it still THEIR opinion. Since you don't call them out. I guess they don't shove it down our throats. As it's their opinion. Not fact.

Secondly, I never said that the only reason anybody likes DBZ is because it's bad. People like DBZ for the fighting and/or nostalgia. Sure, there are a few people who look way too deeply into the series and delude themselves into thinking it has more depth than second-grade fanfiction, but most people only care about the fighting and nostalgia.

You clearly said:
"So you want DBZ to be bad". I never said you said that "People like DBZ cause it bad". I went rage moment because you said that DBZ is bad as if it was fact. WHICH IS NOT. Every thought people don't look deeply into the plot and still like the plot? Like someone like myself? I can name 100 people in real life(Who NEVER watched DBZ before until recently) and internet friends(Who just got into DBZ ) who doesn't have nostalgia for the series and still think it's the GOAT Anime or think the plot is amazing. Sure people like it for fighting. The fights were AMAZING. ONE of the reason I like it is for fighting. It's an ACTION manga-Anime. I'm pretty sure the ACTION in an ACTION manga-anime should have great ACTION to bring the fans into the series. Did I mention DBZ has ACTION because it's an ACTION anime-manga(Also Adventure). YES people have nostalgia of DBZ. They also have Nostalgia of "Hey Arnold!" and "Toonami". What's your point? Everyone has nostalgia on a topic.

I'm one of those who haven't seen it until recently. I just watched it for the first time last year, and I think it's one of the greatest shows of all time. I don't like speaking in absolutes of "it is the best" or "it's bad", because I find it arrogant. It's the only anime I like. There's been some that started off really good, but they got way too cheesy, convoluted, and pretentious to me. And I wouldn't say they're awful, because they all were not. Somethings that are good to me that are bad to others, and no one is wrong. It's art, and a lot of art isn't for everyone. I'm gone to the Detroit Institute of Art so many times, and it blows my mind how a lot of things got in there, but some reason those pieces, struck a lot of people. And I think that's a good thing, because it makes us who we are. Also, I don't need more vices! This is just entertainment, and there's a lot more things in life than competing over trivial things. Unless, you make a career out of it, or do something productive with it. I think Dragon Ball Z is a phenomenal series and it's characters have been very inspirational for me. It actually has helped and continues to help me be a better and stronger person. I'm a huge movie buff and have seen about 1000 movies, yet I can't think of one that influenced my lifestyle. Fight Club, my favorite movie, got me to reevaluate certain aspects in my life, but didn't change a single thing about me.

[thatdbzguy]

We're waiting ThatDBZGuy.. While you're at it please provide examples of stories you find "deep". It'll help give us a better understanding of where you're coming from.

Depends. Are you asking about character depth or plot depth? I don't consider a character to be "depthful" unless they are at least 5-dimensional in their personalities and how they work.

It sort of goes the same for plot in my eyes. A plot has to be a lot more complex and meaningful than DBZ's pitifully linear story to be a story with great depth.

Examples? FMA, Cowboy Bebop, and a few My Little Pony fanfics (as ridiculous as that sounds, it's true.)

[B]

I don't consider a character to be "depthful" unless they are at least 5-dimensional in their personalities and how they work.

This means absolutely nothing.

[thatdbzguy]

I don't consider a character to be "depthful" unless they are at least 5-dimensional in their personalities and how they work.

This means absolutely nothing.

How so?

[Wibbs]

I don't consider a character to be "depthful" unless they are at least 5-dimensional in their personalities and how they work.

This means absolutely nothing.

How so?

It doesn't matter how "5-dimensional" a character is, if they're as stale as cardboard and can't hold your interest then what's the point. I can't speak for B, after all he/she might mean something completely different by what they said.